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Old 2nd December 2020, 22:20   #76
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Default Re: India is now officially in recession

Since this is an automotive forum, it'd be good if we could share suggestions about what can be done to support the industry through this period.
Maybe later if the suggestions are substantial someone could share them with a secretary in the transport or industry ministry?
Few from my side
1. Tax reliefs on vehicles. Make the real price very close to the ex showroom price.

2. Dismantle the RTO. Bring in a digital system for registration, licensing etc. Cost savings will be in thousands of crores for the government because these corrupt RTO officers first earn through bribes and then through pensions. These criminals charged my 70+ relative 4k for a puc renewal because he was not aware of the procedure- the officer was in cahoots with the dalal standing outside his office. A 500 ruppee job inflated to 4k to bribe these corrupt people. These people need to go.

3. Reduce duties on import of components not made in India. We need all the ABS sensors and airbags we can get now.

Your suggestions will be welcome thanks.

Last edited by Cessna182 : 2nd December 2020 at 22:22.
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Old 2nd December 2020, 23:11   #77
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Originally Posted by jalex77 View Post
For your info, I am a farmer.
And my sincere thanks to you I have no issues with your background, this is pure rational argument.
PS: My family is too

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dry Ice View Post
Since you have a good grasp of PB ground realities, please help us understand what will the middlemen gain if Govt adds a MSP clause in the new laws?...
MSP is utilized by only 6% of the Indian farmers. Why do you want a clause specifically for the 6% when the rest 94% do not utilize it? Is it because the 6% are the richest ones and are currently protesting?

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Originally Posted by Dry Ice View Post
...The new laws do away with the concept of APMC - where the Govt procures at MSP. Even now, a lot of trade happens outside the APMC but not below the MSP as the farmer can always sell there.
The new laws do away with APMC because that's what the farmers wanted. They specifically mentioned this in their manifesto: the freedom to sell their produce wherever they want and to whomever they want. The benefit for the farmers? They no longer have to pay any cess/ tax/ levy/ fee to the state govt.

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Originally Posted by Dry Ice View Post
...Again, I would urge you not conclude based on what you feel is right. Give the farmers a ear, they know best about what is right for them. If not, l am happy to agree to disagree
No feelings involved here. Pure rational thought. And of course we can disagree, after all that is the basis of any argument

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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
Middle men are bad. They take away a bulk of the profits. It is better to get rid of them. So the move is to replace the middle men with, er other middle men, but good ones. Like the friends of the farmers called Ambani and Adani.

The provisions of the bill are not bad per se, but it is clearly geared to benefit Modiji's friends. Farmers and middle men are just the collateral.
LoL. Good one... A substantiated argument would have helped cement the reasoning rather than pure conjecture and snark


-----------x---------------
I'm closing this farm bill argument from my side since this thread has derailed.
If you are angry about the farm laws or are indifferent or if you support it, then please do read the law:
here, or
here, or
here, or
here

Be informed and make an educated decision.

Last edited by ValarMorghulis : 2nd December 2020 at 23:12.
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Old 2nd December 2020, 23:48   #78
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Originally Posted by Cessna182 View Post

2. Dismantle the RTO. Bring in a digital system for registration, licensing etc. Cost savings will be in thousands of crores for the government because these corrupt RTO officers first earn through bribes and then through pensions.
Totally agree, I have personally experienced this.
1)My dad had to renew his HMV license recently. We chose the online route thinking it's easy but they require an endorsement from a HMV driving school. Had to pay an agent 3K(intially he asked 4k but i haggled because he himself had no idea,he was an 18 yo kid ) for that document. Mind you 90% percent of the documents were clear and it costs 500 or something to renew.
2) The bike racks/roof carrier law. The law states that nothing should extend from the body of the vehicle. This law is used by officers to harass many common people.
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Old 2nd December 2020, 23:51   #79
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Originally Posted by aniyo View Post
Covid is a convenient excuse for the government but the fact of the matter is

All rule changes will be abruptly announced or withdrawn, Deadline extended randomly. There is very little thought on the rules esp. the e-invoicing.
People who made policy have no clue on how the ground level works. They do not understand how an invoice is generated across many industries. This was simply blindly copied from multiple countries without much thought on localizing.
As one of the previous commenters has said, the administrators in India have zero real world experience. Their entire pre-IAS lives are spent preparing for the exam, and then they spend their career in comfy jobs with feudal privileges, with no accountability for performance.
This ignorance of industrial and technological trends makes them easy prey to lobbyists and influencers, as they have no basis to evaluate different proposals on their merits.
The end result is bungled implementations of demonetization, GST and even (something which would hit a nerve on this forum) Fastag.
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Old 2nd December 2020, 23:53   #80
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Originally Posted by ValarMorghulis View Post
MSP is utilized by only 6% of the Indian farmers. Why do you want a clause specifically for the 6% when the rest 94% do not utilize it? Is it because the 6% are the richest ones and are currently protesting?
Did this 94% of the farmers benefitted from not going to APMC? Are they able to get a better deal than their 6% counterparts? I don't think so. I am not sure a farmer from Assam would have heard about MSP let alone getting it.

As I can see it why not strengthen the mandi/MSP system by making deals transparent and clean up the middle men so that majority of the farmers get the benefit like that privileged 6% and become rich.

Last edited by fordday : 2nd December 2020 at 23:54. Reason: added info
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Old 3rd December 2020, 00:29   #81
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Originally Posted by ValarMorghulis View Post

MSP is utilized by only 6% of the Indian farmers. Why do you want a clause specifically for the 6% when the rest 94% do not utilize it? Is it because the 6% are the richest ones and are currently protesting?
I think you have already made up your mind about who is protesting so I will not counter it anymore.

MSP - you are missing the point that it acts as a deterrent against exploitation. Given that on average there are about 7k APMC markets or mandis to cover the whole country, obviously there will be folks who will rather sell it to someone who is ready to buy it from their village than make the 100-200 km trip.

Quote:
The new laws do away with APMC because that's what the farmers wanted. They specifically mentioned this in their manifesto: the freedom to sell their produce wherever they want and to whomever they want. The benefit for the farmers? They no longer have to pay any cess/ tax/ levy/ fee to the state govt.
If the farmers don't get the price to cover their expenses, what can they do? They either have to let the crop go waste or sell it at a loss.

By the 6% figure you shared, it makes it clear they rather take a hit on price than travel with produce to get a slightly better payout.

Quote:
No feelings involved here. Pure rational thought. And of course we can disagree, after all that is the basis of any argument


Rationaly speaking, if the Govt can publish a guide price MSP twice a year, why the reluctance to introduce this into the bill? Wouldn't that ensure all farmers are treated fairly and won't be taken advantage of. I fail to see a problem with this, except maybe for the buyers who will not be able to maximise their profits.


Quote:
I'm closing this farm bill argument from my side since this thread has derailed.
If you are angry about the farm laws or are indifferent or if you support it, then please do read the law:
This is my last post on the matter too.

A democratic Govt. has a moral obligation to listen to its citizens. I am just disappointed in the way the farmers are being treated. Use of force, dug up roads etc. is uncalled for. My way or the highway is not the mantra in a democracy. Both sides need to discuss and pragmatically decide the way forward.

Thank you!

Last edited by Dry Ice : 3rd December 2020 at 00:31.
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Old 3rd December 2020, 00:43   #82
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A noob here, and decidedly Apolitical, but being a Risk professional, this topic was too juicy to ignore.

A lot of posts have highlighted DeMo, GST etc as Promethean ventures, which they undoubtedly were. Elsewhere, I also read a few articles on the lockdown being sudden and not planned and those do make sense.
I'm not very sure of the current agitations on farm bills, but what I'm sure of is, given the past scenarios, including DM, GST,CAA etc, the current regime will not back down from their follies.
This I believe is the absolute hall mark of a majority govt. Across the world. Backing off from any decision makes the larger than life persona of the leader vulnerable. It's Mr. Modi now,was Mrs. Gandhi 4 decades back.
The earlier follies were covered up using accounting gimmicks ( GDP base year change) and an increased rate on Fuel and Alcohol.
With the lockdown, both were shutoff, leading to a safety valve for revenue being shut down. Backing off by Mr. Modi would send out the signal that he isn't infallible.
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Old 3rd December 2020, 01:14   #83
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Originally Posted by sushantr5 View Post
Germany. Oh boy it is just impossible for the company to get rid of an employee or labor until company proves financial problems or an employee wrongdoings.
Why would a company fire an employee if he is working alright and the Company is in good shape?
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Old 3rd December 2020, 08:29   #84
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Don’t know what to make out of the farm bill. At the very least, looking like established ‘elites’ don’t want change.
Figures of 1500 crores shows why this bill is so polarising. Hopefully, we will get some neutral educated views here.

Today’s TOI.
Attached Thumbnails
India is now officially in recession-a081dba6200246848cc8d06260516245.jpeg  


Last edited by Sree : 3rd December 2020 at 08:31.
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Old 3rd December 2020, 08:41   #85
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Default Re: India is now officially in recession

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Originally Posted by Sandy Damodaran View Post
A noob here, and decidedly Apolitical, but being a Risk professional, this topic was too juicy to ignore.
Clearly you are a wise person who has been around the block. This is one of the best posts here. Welcome to the forum.
Quote:
I'm not very sure of the current agitations on farm bills, but what I'm sure of is, given the past scenarios, including DM, GST,CAA etc, the current regime will not back down from their follies.
This I believe is the absolute hall mark of a majority govt. Across the world. Backing off from any decision makes the larger than life persona of the leader vulnerable.
You hit the nail on the head. The Govt desires to do the right thing be it Farmers Bill, Education, GST or Kashmir and is willing to take action but it does so with too little homework, does not listen to its allies and does not think through the next three steps. And then digs its heels in arrogantly. The reason being exactly what you have stated - the two of them are most impressed by their own perception of their larger than life image. India is the most diverse country on planet Earth and every policy has 500 variations in the way it actually works on the ground. This factor is not paid heed to. I am not for a moment saying we had Ram Rajya in 2004-2014 just pointing out how the current dispensation works.

Quote:
It's Mr. Modi now, was Mrs. Gandhi 4 decades back.
Backing off by Mr. Modi would send out the signal that he isn't infallible.
Very true. Then it was Mahalanobis, MRTP, Bank Nationalization, 98% tax rates, rationing everything, encouraging militant unions, investors are the enemy etc. I started my career when Mrs IG was still around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ValarMorghulis View Post
-----------x---------------
I'm closing this farm bill argument from my side since this thread has derailed.
If you are angry about the farm laws or are indifferent or if you support it, then please do read the law:
Be informed and make an educated decision.
You have a point of view and you write articulately though rather agitatedly. Keeping our personal political leanings aside if some farmers have a feedback I see no harm in giving them a ear rather than pretending the perfect Bill has been crafted. To bring change it is wise to listen {even if you do not agree}.We saw the same story with GST which is still being corrected every quarter! Maybe we ask the farmers to frame a bill covering how consultants should work and if some consultants protest they be told you don't know what's good for you!!!Peace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NiInJa View Post
A longish article, but a balanced explanation about Farmers bill.

https://vivekkaul.com/2020/09/21/why...dly-help-them/
The best written note on this matter that I've read.

Last edited by V.Narayan : 3rd December 2020 at 08:59.
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Old 3rd December 2020, 08:45   #86
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A longish article, but a balanced explanation about Farmers bill.

https://vivekkaul.com/2020/09/21/why...dly-help-them/
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Old 3rd December 2020, 08:53   #87
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@Mods: please intervene. It’s evident where this thread is going.
Even I am tempted to react(not respond) my opinion( not facts ) pro/ anti government. Time to revisit “the social dilemma “

Last edited by vikramvicky1984 : 3rd December 2020 at 08:54.
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Old 3rd December 2020, 09:35   #88
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My 2paise before this thread gets closed:

Please raise your hands , if you think that farm income should also be taxed.
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Old 3rd December 2020, 10:11   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ValarMorghulis View Post
Oh btw, the 2015 Shanta Kumar Committee found that only around 6% of farmers actually sell their crops at MSP rates.
Statistics. They get to sell above MSB because of the MSP and not in spite of it. Had not there been a MSP, the traders would have been buying below MSP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandy Damodaran View Post
I'm not very sure of the current agitations on farm bills, but what I'm sure of is, given the past scenarios, including DM, GST,CAA etc, the current regime will not back down from their follies.
A dictator is not necessarily somebody who send his detractors to the guillotine, but one who do not listen to his subjects. Rule with an iron hand, seems to be the mantra here.

PS: Actually, I am okay with the new farm laws. I just do not like the way it is being pushed down our throats, like the numerous ones before this.
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Old 3rd December 2020, 10:18   #90
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Originally Posted by srini1785 View Post
Please raise your hands , if you think that farm income should also be taxed.
Many of my relatives are in farming. After losing majority of land to government, my grandfather decided not to survive in village, moved out, focused on education, settled in urban landscape. From what I know, farm income should not be taxed. Government has already capped the maximum amount of land a person can hold (along with his/her spouse), though when child/children of existing land holder has his/her own individual cap on the amount of land one can hold. This move has restricted the amount of farm land a person can own, as a consequence, his/her income is limited to an extent. Farming is still dependent on natural factors hence risk is there.

Farm income shouldn't be taxed, but farmers should be encouraged to file ITR. What is more concerning is hiding other income as farm income and this should be identified, stopped.
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