[mohansrides]

Originally Posted by srini1785

As an analogy, we can say that there are a lot of IT engineers who spend their entire lifetime in IT industry learning skills that are enough to make them hackers but do they end up as one after retirement?. It just does not hold water..

This is a false equivalence. I am in IT for 20+ years. Here is some food for thought.

a.) Let us be clear that roughly 40% of the IT workforce does not code, has not coded, and will NEVER code. There is room in the industry for people with all kinds of skills. So not all IT people are being handed resources to hack. Not at all.

b.) Point a. is actually less important. What is more important is that of the segment that does code, most are average to below average programmers for whom IT is a meal ticket, nothing more. Being a hacker requires a high level of curiosity, self-starting mentality, initiative and real interest in programming. This is hardly true for 90% of the Indian IT workforce. If our IT guys had enough money to not worry about money, they would NEVER be working as programmers. No matter how vociferously people come and say otherwise, this is the truth. So yeah, our programmers don’t end up as hackers. Because they aren’t trained to be one, nor are they handed the resources to hack. In fact, hacking requires you to summon up lots and lots of spherical objects which aren’t the usual traits for most corporate desk jockeys.

Now let us juxtapose the above points with Agniveer and our forces.

a.) As far as I know every single person in the forces has to roll up their sleeves and learn to fire a weapon, at the very least. This I think is true for even those who work in accounting, administration and logistics.

So there is no segment of the Agniveer recruits who aren’t going to learn combat.

b.) As opposed to most of us who fall into IT to feed our families, every single guy who voluntarily enlists in the forces possesses perceptibly higher amounts of devotion, dedication and drive. The army teaches them to harness said drive, control their mind and then to really put their raw courage to work. So, if such dudes end up feeling jilted at the end of 4 years…. Well, then we can see that the problem isn’t nothing. There is merit to the notion that anti-social and anti-national elements who possess enough resources and the right people management skills can turn an ex-Agniveer into someone problematic for society.


Just to be clear, I don’t support or oppose the Agniveer scheme. I don’t know enough to take a position. But I thought I should point out the false equivalence as I saw it.

For what it’s worth, such false equivalences are routinely applied in other debates too. For example, the gun lobby in the US always cites cars as the example. Their argument is that automobile accident deaths haven’t led to us banning cars. Cars don’t kill people they say. Only people kill people. So based on this notion, guns aren’t the problem. It’s the occasional bad apples who wield them.

The above line of argument is rubbish to anyone who is willing to think even for a minute.

Cars aren’t designed to kill. That people die in accidents is entirely incidental and unintentional. Indeed that is the very definition of an accident.

By contrast, guns are specifically designed to kill. There is no other intent there at all.

So applying cars as an analogy for guns isn’t even close to appropriate.

The issue here, as with all debates, is that we generally position ourselves on one side of the discussion and then we look for social themes to justify our position.

Thanks

[neeraj0272]

TV debates and debates elsewhere and indeed whole of India is laying the mantle of patriotism and valour on our soldiers and those aspirant to be soldiers.

I think public should ask those politicians and those government officials and indeed also those armed services officers and also those from the public including fellow members of this forum who are claiming the benefits of this Agneeveer scheme to cumpalsarily submit their wards to this scheme with the rider that their wards will cumplosrily retire after 4 years. Then let's see how many will support this scheme and submit their wards?
May I ask how many Team BHP members will send their wards to this scheme with such rider?

Are we not turning blind to the stark reality that for majority of these aspirants this is a career decision and getting respect from fellow countrymen is a bonus?

So please we must recognise that for the poor getting into armed forces is 'more of a necessity and less of a virtue'. And if indeed it is more virtue than necessity then why only poor of our country contribute to armed forces?
I feel that this scheme in its present form is an exploitation of the poor.
If govt is bent upon enforcing this then they should make compulsary service for all Indians for a particular age group. It would create a level playing field for all Indians.
Otherwise we know that people from a particular Indian state who lead in giving sermons about patriotism send lowest numbers to our armed forces while claiming that they do so because they are good at trading and business!

[Fuldagap]

Originally Posted by Wason4699

Having belonged to one such ghost regiment of the Army I hope I am entitled to have my views on this post.

Kudos to you sir for taking time out and commenting on this thread. Not only you are entitled, personnel like you ought to be heard by the machinery.
Sadly, that isn't the case though. It is extremely rare to have seen and done what you did in your unit. It is, therefore, extremely difficult for the civilians ordinarily and the civilians working in the decision making process to actually understand the repurcussion of this decision.

SierraBravo98 has put forth great points too. Thanks to his keen observations and learnings from his father's experience.

Here is a video that surfaced while taking my daily dose of news intake from the net.
To me, this video provides us an exact glimpse of how much thought was put into this great implementation. I'm pretty sure the decision was well thought out. Thought out well for getting those results that are beyond the imagination of this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcX9n5mWGM4

[theabstractmind]

Originally Posted by 400notout

In this world of agendas and propaganda mongering I see you are a person with empathy. So I'll be frank with you.

Yes it was sarcastic. Many bhpians have elucidated the finer points against the scheme much better and I know this debate will run around in circles. No point repeating the same.

In the earlier situation the contract was simple, an army contract meant a barter for life against family's security. Now it's your life for a fixed sum after which you can bugger off. The money saved will be used for automation/advanced weaponry (hopefully). Maybe the aim is to create mercenaries rather than devoted warriors.

My sincere apologies. Appreciate a very tempered response.

[MBond007]

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

Critics of this scheme are not addressing the core problem, that is, the enormous capital needed for buying/producing critical equipment like Nuclear submarines, fighter planes, aircraft carriers, missile systems, anti-missile systems etc.

If China rains a few precision missiles and cuts off logistics to our border areas, then all our soldiers, even with all their skills will just be sitting ducks. Or against drones. Or China sends a couple of aircraft carriers to our coast, blocks our ports or invades a couple of islands (as they have been doing with Taiwan and Japan).

That China may not have the capability/inclination now is no excuse not to be prepared.

To emphasise, defence is not just Army and putting more and more bodies on the ground. It also is a strong airforce, navy, and cyber defence. And these cost money.

Many have made the emotional argument that we need to take care of the men carrying the weapons. True.

But more importantly, we need weapons that are not carried by men.

There is no denying that modernizing the armed forces is the need of the hour and that substantial fund will be needed to do that. The government is desperately trying to reduce the cash outflow. But is plugging a small hole (pension of retired soldiers) going to help in filling the reservoir, especially when there are many apparent major leaks in the vessel?

Why doesn't the government reduce pensions of MPs and MLAs? Why aren't hefty expenditures by the bureaucrats curbed? The only plausible answer is that no one will cut the tree on which one is sitting. The politicians in connivance with the bureaucracy will ensure that they enjoy life to the fullest while others are made to suffer in order to save pennies.

For those who are saying that the Agnipath program is an optional one, I request them to be a tad more empathetic. The folks who prepare for armed forces come from abject poverty and they have only 1 or 2 avenue to secure employment. Not everybody can afford the luxury to prepare for or study in medical or engineering colleges. Getting into the armed forces was probably the only way for these millions of students to secure a career where that become financially stable and can walk with their head held high. The government, with this half baked dictum has taken away that dream. Not everyone dreams of becoming a chaiwallah or a night watchman sad state of affairs. Very sad state of affairs.

[ajay0612]

As usual, a potentially good idea has been ruined by half hearted efforts of apathetic babus. These 4 years as Agniveer could have been made a cause of celebration and pride by removing the obvious handicaps:
- Whereever there is an age limit (public or private, job or education), agniveer would get 4 years grace period. Period.
- To avoid any bias, agniveer should get 1% reservation in all state and goverment jobs including Civil Services.
-Like any other army post, agniveer should retain their title after leaving the service.

[Akshay6988]

Originally Posted by Sebring

Initiative is 'Desh Bhakti'. And this is very important for today's youth who are mindlessly chasing money

And paying taxes through noses doesn't count as 'Desh Bhakti' ? And chasing money is wrong ? What do you propose the youth do ?

Coming to the topic being discussed in this thread, I hope these "shifting gears" threads don't damage the fine running engine that is Team BHP. Too many threads where members attacking each other without any remorse and we see multiple posts getting edited and some members banned. Hope moderator team discuss this amongst themselves and avoid such controversial threads on the forum. Just my two cents as a petrol head and a Team BHP member - fan.
I'm off to the travelogue section

[Wason4699]

Of all essential things we must note that the Armed forces recruit Officers or Jawans from this very society which is a heterogeneous mixture of all kinds. Good , Bad, Lazy , Disciplined all types of characters you would find.

The basic training moulds the individual to Army requirements and slowly when he enters his paltan regiment. He gets accustomed and feels responsible for holding the nam and Nishan of the paltan. This doesn't come easily or cheap. Lots of good men laid down their lives for the Battle Honors.

The bonding that a jawan makes with his regiment , an officer makes with his men doesn't happen overnight it's a gradual process that takes time. We asin Indian Army aren't the GI Joes or Seals enjoying Pizza and Hershey's chocolate in field areas. An average jawan and officer carries Shakkarparas and Gud Chana during Operation Times. Why I am writing this is to make a point that our Army isn't what French ,Israel or US army is.

We are an army recruited through the diversity of India with a time proven and tested method. Our entire Borderline is hostile and we have been forced into 7 wars since independence. Being an atomic Power state and also a hostile neighbour having the same. We have very limited options to carry out effective Operation. Army especially Infantry is the option that is looked upon as the Last resort in our country be it Commonwealth games, Floods, Earthquake or children falling in borewell Army was the rescuer.

Now the golden question arises why are Senior Officer's serving are supporting the scheme in its present format. Well they have their own professional reasons , some want to get out of turn promotion, some are eyeing the post of CDS or Governor of any state. Well this gov had broken the rule of selection of COAS by making Gen Bipin Rawat ahead of senior officer available.

I don't think anyone else other than a Fauzi would be the one who would ever want to yield a weapon, because he knows the cost of firing one.

@Sierrabravo Sir I ll answer all your queries one fine rainy evening. Today the weather and mood both are Humid.

Jai Hind.

[itisK]

Without going in to the merits and demerits of the scheme, I read something above which left me shocked at the audacity of the person writing that post.

Someone has gone ahead and labelled the entire leadership of the three services as greedy & weak men who can not look beyond personal favours, and thus they are supporting this scheme meekly. And that officers have been shown the door because they opposed this scheme?

How about backing it up with anything substantial?

Is this what we have fallen to? And for what? Just to prove our point?

I'm sorry to say but if you hold such views about the services and men who have given everything for it, Agniveer or not, you should first learn a bit more about those men who are already there doing their duty.

And while we are at it, please go and read Kargil Review Committee report too. Well, it too had recommendations on similar lines for reducing the years spent in active service. Would you call them compromised too?

[mohansrides]

Originally Posted by Akshay6988

Coming to the topic being discussed in this thread, I hope these "shifting gears" threads don't damage the fine running engine that is Team BHP. Too many threads where members attacking each other without any remorse and we see multiple posts getting edited and some members banned

Don’t let it bother you.

Most consumer cars in India are boring, and the opinions about these boring cars are even more boring.

This, the Shifting Gears section is where it’s at. This is where the real value of this forum lies. Team BHP takes in members after a fairly rigorous selection process. If anything, the process needs to be more rigorous; but that’s a discussion for another time.

Anyways, coming back to what I was saying, I feel that the intellectual horsepower of most members is thoroughly wasted in automotive discussions in the main forum. It’s only in the shifting gears section that we get to benefit from thoughtful and considered opinions on most things that matter in life; of which our current crop of consumer cars isn’t one. So here is where the true merit of this forum lies.

Sure, things get hot and heavy at times. But it’s only when people have the freedom to feel deeply will we hear their true voice.

So, sit back and enjoy the contributions from our collective experiences. Don’t let the angry tones bother you. All learning happens here only. The main forum is only for time pass.

P.S.

Just for reference, I almost never report a post, even if said post is diametrically opposite of the position that I take in a debate. Most posts that I report are my own to correct typos and grammar. What I am trying to say is that I fully welcome a vociferous attack on my position. People who give me that are actually doing me a solid. In general, people who agree with me only end up mollycoddling me which is of ZERO benefit to me. So game on guys. Bring your best to the discussions in shifting gears. Nothing else will do.

Cheers

[Phukan]

India is country where there is no social security for an average citizen. So If a 17 years old boy is thrown to streets after completing his schooling and 4 years at army, he would have few options left with him either being ending up as a bouncer at a club or as a private security stuff. What I think should have been included in the package is some sort of rehabilitation program post their army tenure. This can be accomplished in army technical schools or certain quotas can be kept at government colleges for Agniveers with age relaxation. That way the Scheme would look much more attractive to youth from marginalized backgrounds who otherwise could not continue their studies due to lack of funds.

[nithin5497]

As someone who has traveled a bit and met quite a bit of people, I believe this was a very powerful scheme which could've helped our country a lot, but is facing spectacular backlash due to some poor decisions. These are my 2 points.

• This was designed to instill a sense of patriotism and national pride like many other members have pointed out. Look at the other countries, and how proud of their countries they are generally. We on the other hand, are only like that during probably a few sports or events. And the future of our nation is in the hands of our youth. But this could be done from a grassroots level starting with something in our schools as basic as cleanliness and respect for rules.
• This could also try to put in a sense of respect to the armed forces and make many people realize that it's not "just another exam" which they need to crack to get lifelong benefits. Many (not all) don't realize the threat or the gravity of the situation faced by the armed forces. In my opinion this will help them in life overall, and not just change their op of the armed forces.

But on the other hand, we can clearly see how the youth are and why they're like that when they see a majority of politicians and other people make easy money with absolute disregard for the nation (sometimes even going in the complete opposite direction too)
I'm not going to talk about the financial aspect of this because that is beyond my scope. When we see them burning things in sign of protest, we can see how detrimental it can be (If they had some amount of forethought, they would realize that its their own buses and their own property that they're destroying and its going to inconvenience them only and not the policy makers)

[chef-de-jeep]

It's in very poor taste that one would expect absolute loyalty unto death from these prospective soldiers and then dump them after 4 years. If cost saving for the latest gadgetry is indeed the objective why not roll out the same scheme for politicians who are milking life long facilities for every single term that they enjoy power. I am not sure on this but I did read somwhere that they get a seperate pension for every term that a representative is elected( pardon me if I am wrong). A classic case of cutting expenditure by cutting some one else's neck

[Sebring]

Didn't I mention 'like Singapore'? Dont they pay taxes there? 'Mindlessly' chasing money is when someone is 'solely' putting all energies in doing just that.

Originally Posted by Akshay6988

And paying taxes through noses doesn't count as 'Desh Bhakti' ? And chasing money is wrong ? What do you propose the youth do ?

[black.beauty]

I feel like we're making a big deal out of every situation. It's a scheme that you participate only if you want to. I don't have much of an opinion but if there is anything then it is more inclined towards government's decision. The protests are wild and more destructive than all the negative impacts of the scheme will be.