[manub22]

Originally Posted by humyum

If you want to save money, stop building vista's, bullet trains, thousands of crores on election campaigns and roaming around like ibn-batuta.

Vista? It's going to save a lot of money for govt, which was previously enjoyed by politicians by renting out their property to govt https://www.deccanherald.com/nationa...um-994871.html

[400notout]

Yay! the masterstroke days are here again. I dont understand the hue and cry against this grand visionary scheme. Who wants to pay bills of war cripples and out of use service men? Machines would replace them anyway.

If after 4 years you can't make it to the draft simply means you ain't no John Rambo! 11 lakhs is more than enough to start a lucrative roadside pakora business, the king is indeed generous.

A machine heavy and people independent armed forces mean more power to the govt. When has that been a bad thing? We can also dream of the day when we can drone strike potential troublemakers and dissidents.

The out of favour "agniveers" can work as delivery boys. Their discipline will only help them score more orders a day however they must ignore traffic rules though.

And I find it disgusting that here we are trying to build a great nation, undoing all the mess the previous establishments have gotten us into, but then these unemployed people want everything on a platter. Jeez get a life. Why can't they just look after their dads business or update their profile on LinkedIn? There seem to be so many courses available online that guarantee good jobs!

Like demonetisation revolutionized our economy this Agnipath scheme will do the same to our already competent armed forces. We can have more Bofors, Rafales and Desert eagles.

Frankly in my opinion all pension in every govt department needs to be done away with. People should behave like professional citizens. We should be like nature, survival of the fattest wallet.

Enough of subsidies! We can use the spare cash to tighten control over our citizens to inject "deshbhakti" and at the same time contain naxal behavior in urban areas. We can build monuments to ascertain the greatness of our civilisation and reclaim the old converted ones. With Indians as CEOs of the biggest tech companies in the world, we need not even worry about the technically advanced War machinery to be hacked.

And as far as the protestors are concerned, wait till the bull dozers reach their houses. They are en route from a neighboring state

This is Agnipath we are talking about. Some burns are to be expected. Jai hind!

[Amrik Singh]

Originally Posted by 400notout

Yay! the masterstroke days are here again. I dont understand the hue and cry against this grand visionary scheme. Who wants to pay bills of war cripples and out of use service men? Machines would replace them

It was envisioned that in War, Machines would replace Men. For this reason, Armies were investing in Tanks and Missiles.
Russia - Ukraine was has shown that Tanks are vulnerable and like sitting Duck to a shoulder fired Anti Tank Missile. At the end, it is the Foot Soldiers that are in the frontline. Russia had not prepared for this and Soldiers were not fully war ready.
War strategies keep changing. We are amidst two enemy countries beside the internal hostilities. You cannot create a War ready soldier at a short notice.

[VeluM]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

Compulsory military training means a level field for everyone. What job skills will these 21-26 year old Agniveer retirees have for landing constructive jobs? Where will they stand against regular civilian kids who will have gone to college and have graduate, post graduate and professional degrees? These soldiers will not even be able to apply for bachelors program in an overwhelming majority of colleges, they would not be eligible. They will most likely be overage for police/constable recruitment as well.

The Agniveers will come out of their service with a 12th certificate and training they receive during the course of their service.

You seem to be uninformed of who applies to be a ‘Jawan’ in the forces. These are 10th pass youngsters of the same age as those who would join as Agniveers. They’re not with the means usually to go for further education, let alone college degrees.

Employment will on the contrary be opportunities opened to them as a result of their service, through the preferential selection as announced by several state, central, and private organisations. Higher Education will be possible due to their 12th certificate and retirement benefit amounting to a sum substantial to most at that age, which they wouldn’t have had were they to have joined any private service as a 10th pass.

Originally Posted by mayukh42

1. Would the remaining 75% be given a certificate that is equivalent to a college degree? This is a must I think, and it can largely resolve the concern above.

They will get a 12th class pass certificate. An officer graduates from the NDA with a Bachelors degree after spending three years in training, and they join after 12th, for reference.

Originally Posted by srini1785

As an analogy, we can say that there are a lot of IT engineers who spend their entire lifetime in IT industry learning skills that are enough to make them hackers but do they end up as one after retirement?. It just does not hold water.

Very true, the militant Agniveers is a false fear. People are saying that we’re putting arms into the hands of children - well they’re no younger than soldiers before, and they are so chosen, trained, and expected to be disciplined.

Originally Posted by kurmist

1) How will this impact the morale of the rest of the force when an NCO knows that his team will change every 4 years?

2) WIll we have this backbone of experienced NCOs etc in the future?

2) Is 4 years enough of time for the bulk of our armed forces to develop and be ready for contingencies?

3) Is this just a scheme to address the issue of increasing unemployment in rural / urban youth?

1. They won’t, all future Non and Junior Commissioned Officers will be double selected. These will be from the 25% that choose to, and are selected to stay on in service. They will likely be highly motivated, and the selection process here will be as is currently followed within the armed forces.

2. Yes. They will continue to be trained, gather experience and be as good as they are today, because they will be groomed as they are today.

2? Current basic training is 9 months. It will be 6 for Agniveers. Training is in any case always more rigorous in the Unit. Indian Army training is far more difficult than actual war, so they will be as close to a current recruit as the 3 month difference will take them. As an example, when short service women pilots were allowed into the Air Force, their training was shorter than the permanent commission men’s. The course wasn’t condensed - they basically covered the same training in a shorter time. This is for pilots, and dates back from 1992/3 to at least 1998 when my sister joined. Tough, but then so is the job.

3. It is the opposite. The Indian Armed forces - as stated by many - is not an employment scheme. They need volunteers who are there out of choice, and then pick only the best as Agniveers, and then the best of the best as future Non/Junior COs.

Originally Posted by fawad0222

Well, well, Its the world wide phenomenon of governments/politicians, who when face financial challenges, train their attention to curtailing employment, pensions. Easy way out, perhaps.

This is in fact not the easy way out. It is a hard decision, which is why it has been put off by successive governments. The armed forces soldier usually retired at a maximum age of around 40 (those with the best knowledge please confirm the exact max age). Most would retire at around 37.

At this age they have to start a new career, and they go into service as security staff at various private establishments, and those with a weapons license join banks as cash security guards or personal security officers. They continue to draw pension for life, which hopefully is a minimum of 27 years.

This is a very long time compared to an officer who serves at least until 56 (unless they take premature retirement), which is Not a very employment friendly age. This would mean a pension for the next 11 years for an average Indian male.

The majority of pensions - contrary to popular belief - doesn’t go to officers, but to the relatively young jawans. The Indian army - which let’s be honest will employ most of the Agniveers - has approximately 45,000 officers, and 1.2 million soldiers in active duty.

Originally Posted by ABHI_1512

One funny and common thing among all the decisions made till date, the noted economists were never the part of economic policies, the noted educationists were never the part of education policies, the public health experts were never the part of the Covid policies and now the defence and military experts were not the part of the latest scheme since all these experts were kept out of the policy making process and the results are for all to see.

All these talk of making the Army lean and cutting back on expenses because of rising pension bill and all, some even have mentioned the freebies and subsidies, have to start with a scheme of providing employment to children just out of school for four years with no pension ? Why can’t the onus of savings comes from the esteemed members of houses who enjoy unlimited subsidies at the cost of the tax payers ? No body asks those questions, I often wonder why ?

All Service Chiefs and the late CDS were privy to and fully included in the formulation of this scheme. Retired officers weren’t consulted, because there are fully capable serving officers who were.

I completely agree on the MLA/MP situation though.

Originally Posted by mygodbole

Agnipath is NOT a replacement for regular recruitment in the near future, though if this initiative succeeds, regular recruitment norms might go a few notches higher. Regular recruitment will continue, at least in the foreseeable future.

Basic training is usually followed up by skill-based, aptitude-based training, at least in the Army. There is a saying you can find almost every skill among the recruits. So someone who can 'read' river currents or learns how to drive a 3-tonne truck or bandage wounds or climb a vertical cliff or 'read' a track in the desert/jungle/mountain, is likely to be made proficient in that specific skill. Every unit has designated individuals for cooking, laundry, vehicle and weapons maintenance and they are taught to be proficient in that specific skill. This is in addition to their training in general drills, unit discipline and efficiency in making war. This discipline and training will polish individual skills, making them first-choice in the the post-Agnipath civilian work-space. Ex-servicemen all over the country are gainfully employed post-retirement and can guide these Agniveers in civilian life.

NCOs and JCOs are not going anywhere any time soon. As an officer once said: "We come out of the academy with these officer's epaulets, but learn everything about efficiently running a unit from these ranks." And the repartee comes from an NCO: "We take care of the officers so they can take care of the unit." Future NCOs and JCOs can/may come from early Agniveers who may be part of the 25% volunteers that are retained at the end of their 4-year stint.

Well said ��

Originally Posted by 400notout

Yay! the masterstroke days are here again. I dont understand the hue and cry against this grand visionary scheme. Who wants to pay bills of war cripples and out of use service men? Machines would replace them anyway.

If after 4 years you can't make it to the draft simply means you ain't no John Rambo! 11 lakhs is more than enough to start a lucrative roadside pakora business, the king is indeed generous.

Jai hind!

I get that you are trying to be sarcastic, but it is coming across as politically biased.

The first thing is to understand the scheme, and then debate the merits/demerits. All valour, gallantry, and disability benefits of Agnipath are as per existing schemes because they will be employed as per the service act of the arm they join (Army, Navy, or Air Force). They will be covered by non-contributory Life Insurance of Rs 48 lakh for the duration of their engagement period in the Indian Armed Forces, with additional 44 lakh for death attributed to service.

In my opinion this is a progressive move to make the forces lighter yet better equipped. Younger, more agile, yet retaining the old strengths of highly committed and dedicated officers of all ranks.

We have as far as I know the maximum officer to jawan casualty ratio in the world - a badge of pride that the officers lead from the front, unlike other forces around the world or in our neighbourhood. That is the culture of our forces, and that culture will not change.

[Carmine_pepper]

interesting to see so many varied reaction to one scheme.
we had in the course of 6 pages conjured up every color of the rainbow for these aspirants future.
the only thing this confirms that the outcome is no guaranteed. Armed forces needed a change we got a change.
will love to to see a positive outcome in a decade. if that doesn't materialize i hope the ruling dispension of that time is as strong willed as the present one to make amends as necessary.

[Wason4699]

Having belonged to one such ghost regiment of the Army I hope I am entitled to have my views on this post.

It's the man firing the weapon who matters not the weapon. If someone thinks pension is costly for the country try defeat.

And at last i would willingly accept the Agniveer theory.If all the VIP protectees accept them as their Bodyguards instead of NSG , SPG.

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted by Wason4699

Having belonged to one such ghost regiment of the Army I hope I am entitled to have my views on this post.

It's the man firing the weapon who matters not the weapon. If someone thinks pension is costly for the country try defeat.

I am glad you two expressed so lucidly the shortcomings of the proposed system. Wish someone in the higher echelons of administration could muster up enough courage to point these and many more lacunae that the powers that be seem to have been oblivious of or are willingly ignoring.

But given what's recently been happening to the critics of the current policies, that would be a highly risky proposition. It is a quagmire really. Damned if you speak, damned if you don't!

A tough call indeed.

Originally Posted by superbad

As someone who is serving in the armed forces, let me offer a first person perspective. Most of the concerns regarding this scheme which have been voiced by different members are genuine & valid.

[theabstractmind]

Originally Posted by 400notout

Yay! the masterstroke days are here again. I dont understand the hue and cry against this grand visionary scheme. Who wants to pay bills of war cripples and out of use service men?

Like demonetisation revolutionized our economy this Agnipath scheme will do the same to our already competent armed forces. We can have more Bofors, Rafales and Desert eagles.

Seriously? War cripples? Is that how you treat the men who risk their lives to keep your country safe?

And, Demonetization is known to have set behind our economy by quite a bit.

I could go on but I have realized this world isn't a place for reason. Whatever be the case, those guys at the warfront need a better treatment than being called cripples. If not for those words I wouldn't have bothered responding. Unless you meant it to be sarcastic.

[PG245]

It would be interesting to see what percentage of the people commenting here on this scheme has directly worked in defense forces or has seen them from close quarters. The reason I say this because for someone who has no knowledge of how defense forces function, just by applying common sense and assumptions, we may not be qualified to speak on this topic.

[dsr001]

He did mean to be sarcastic. But still seems disrespectful.

[Spaced Out]

Advise followers of this thread to read this piece by a retd Navy Officer.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...pay-col-singh/

Re: tech vs boots on the ground is a false choice. You cannot do without infantry.

WWI showed it and US in Iraq and Afghanistan proved it (again) most recently. We have a massive border with China and Pakistan and if you think AI/ML based tech driven sooni-corn products can tackle that, well, I have some Byju shares for you to buy.

[400notout]

Originally Posted by VeluM

The first thing is to understand the scheme, and then debate the merits/demerits. All valour, gallantry, and disability benefits of Agnipath are as per existing schemes because they will be employed as per the service act of the arm they join (Army, Navy, or Air Force). They will be covered by non-contributory Life Insurance of Rs 48 lakh for the duration of their engagement period in the Indian Armed Forces, with additional 44 lakh for death attributed to service.

The first thing is to understand the point of the scheme. Which as per the govt is to mainly reduce pension budgets.

The merits and demerits are all technicalities whereas the clear no bullshit message is if you're in the 75% area you're on your own.

Originally Posted by VeluM

In my opinion this is a progressive move to make the forces lighter yet better equipped. Younger, more agile, yet retaining the old strengths of highly committed and dedicated officers of all ranks.

In my opinion, this is a half baked, underthought shot in the dark where the human element is sacrificed for financial gain of which there will anyway be no accountability.

Originally Posted by VeluM

We have as far as I know the maximum officer to jawan casualty ratio in the world - a badge of pride that the officers lead from the front, unlike other forces around the world or in our neighbourhood. That is the culture of our forces, and that culture will not change.

I just hope and pray this spirit and integrity is uncompromised by such shallow decision making.

Originally Posted by theabstractmind

Seriously? War cripples? Is that how you treat the men who risk their lives to keep your country safe?

And, Demonetization is known to have set behind our economy by quite a bit.

I could go on but I have realized this world isn't a place for reason. Whatever be the case, those guys at the warfront need a better treatment than being called cripples. If not for those words I wouldn't have bothered responding. Unless you meant it to be sarcastic.

In this world of agendas and propaganda mongering I see you are a person with empathy. So I'll be frank with you.

Yes it was sarcastic. Many bhpians have elucidated the finer points against the scheme much better and I know this debate will run around in circles. No point repeating the same.

War cripples is a dehumanizing term surely but in my context it's a mere reflection of the schemes attitude towards a soldiers service. How many of these Agniveers will serve kargil/Ulfa/doklam with the same gusto? In a war scenario how many of them can be sent to combat?

In the earlier situation the contract was simple, an army contract meant a barter for life against family's security. Now it's your life for a fixed sum after which you can bugger off. The money saved will be used for automation/advanced weaponry (hopefully). Maybe the aim is to create mercenaries rather than devoted warriors.

[fawad0222]

3. [It is the opposite. The Indian Armed forces - as stated by many - is not an employment scheme. They need volunteers who are there out of choice, and then pick only the best as Agniveers, and then the best of the best as future Non/Junior COs.)]
Dear Sir,
I beg to differ strongly with you on this point. Any job, when a person chooses, chooses voluntarily. It doesn't mean that he is not making a career decision. Today, joining armed forces is ninetynine% if not hundred, a planned career move both for officers as well as for other ranks. Gone are the days when people used to volunteer for joining military, leaving much lucrative offers or easier lifestyle behind.
There is a section of population which today aspires to join military as a soldier and prepares well, not unlike others who prepare for civil services. There is a reason for them doing so.
Regards


.

[Lowflyer23]

Originally Posted by superbad

Furthermore the defence bill appears bloated because of the hidden behemoth called the defence civilians. Why no restructuring/pruning in their rank & file?

Well said and I completely agree sir, this is a major issue. I recently observed the working of DRDO employees closely and let me tell you these guys do work slower than an average great grandma. Moreover I was shocked to know that they receive an OT (overtime) bonus too. A lady employee in front of me asked her superior for OT because she was printing photocopies of a document after office hours(this document was to be photocopied and submitted during the office hours, that was her only duty for that day). Had there been a concept of OT in armed forces as well, most of the personnels would have been millionaires.

Moreover they demand separate CSD facilities and other compensations citing those given to the armed forces. Yet the amount of effort and passion put into work by them doesn't even come close to that of the armed forces personnels. People would be shocked to know the ridiculous timelines set by these scientists for very basic projects .

Not only that, they proudly claim to be a part of the forces yet have no agility and their fitness levels are horrible. I know it's not completely right to comment on someone's fitness levels, but if one is claiming and being egoistic of being a civilian defence employee then they should be able to run at least a kilometre. I have seen people in 20s in that place about to fall when walking more than 200 metres.

[DigitalOne]

Critics of this scheme are not addressing the core problem, that is, the enormous capital needed for buying/producing critical equipment like Nuclear submarines, fighter planes, aircraft carriers, missile systems, anti-missile systems etc.

If China rains a few precision missiles and cuts off logistics to our border areas, then all our soldiers, even with all their skills will just be sitting ducks. Or against drones. Or China sends a couple of aircraft carriers to our coast, blocks our ports or invades a couple of islands (as they have been doing with Taiwan and Japan).

That China may not have the capability/inclination now is no excuse not to be prepared.

To emphasise, defence is not just Army and putting more and more bodies on the ground. It also is a strong airforce, navy, and cyber defence. And these cost money.

Many have made the emotional argument that we need to take care of the men carrying the weapons. True.

But more importantly, we need weapons that are not carried by men.