[VeluM]

Originally Posted by AZT

The "AgniVeer" is very catchy branding, PR game on point.

This scheme is good at a macro level but almost everyone will "choose" to continue and that 25% selection criteria will lead to favoritism and those not selected will just be a disgruntled bunch. Once you're used to earning 30-40k a month, there's no taking a pay cut so not finding a higher paying job (with perks) will be another pain point. I see a lot of angry young men entering the cut-throat job market and not finding respectful jobs with perks. These will be single job less men looking for brides and will find that equally cut - throat. Another reservation category for MBA / govt jobs maybe to counter this ??

Corporates may be indirectly pressured to take these in the workforce and that's going to affect normal graduates who are applying for those roles. Now, these guys will think they've been wronged. Would all the ex army men fine with this scheme, also be fine cutting their own pension / perks and propose a restructuring of current salary being paid to all levels. Assuming the main reason for this program is, Pension and monetary outgo is too high and we need to spend more on high tech weaponry and modernization instead.

Sorry but this post is so off target that it isn’t even funny.

Request you do some basic reading on the scheme and also please don’t insult ex-servicemen indirectly with the insinuation that the tens of thousands of retired army jawans are potential threats to society - I know that wasn’t your intention, just pointing out how it comes across.

The selection process in the forces at almost every level is transparent and has feedback from multiple levels. Favouritism might be possible for ulterior motives, but overwhelmingly the favourites are those who perform the best. This is an extremely well sorted process that has produced the same officers and men we are all praising today, so questioning it would be equivalent to saying that the forces personnel are great, but the selection process is extremely corrupt. In a word, contradictory.

The lot of disgruntled men who leave after four years is a hypocritical argument. They know they have to leave after four years. They know very few will get through. If they think they will be unhappy leaving, then work hard to remain. If they’re very unhappy, they won’t join in the first place. The forces need more of those who have a drive to join the forces, not so much of those who just need a job. It’s not that kind of a job.

The ones who apply for permanence and aren’t selected, there is a substantial retirement benefit and several skill development programmes already in place to avail. The Army has had reskilling courses in place for years, and had tied up with NASSCOM for industry demanded training and employment assistance too. Several corporates are also involved in their own individual capacity. This is well before Agniveer.

Finally, no one is asking current serving or retired soldiers to give up anything. The suggestion is irrelevant because their pensions remain by virtue of their full term service. The Agniveers selected to become regulars will get these same benefits. The scheme is forward looking, not snatching from those who’ve already spent their lives in service.

[Miyata]

Whole things seems poorly thought out. One can use the catchy phrases and romanticized titles like 'agniveer', doesn't change the ground reality. May as well call it 'contract soldiers' scheme.

If the issue is bottomline of the nations economy, why not -

1. Make efforts to shore that up with improving the international trade? After all, if the expenses increase, we do make efforts in both cutting back as well as improving the revenues.

2. Support localization of high tech engineering (R&D, Defence and otherwise)? Right investment will pay massive dividends for years to come.

3. Extend this contract soldering to other positions across the board. While at it, eliminate all the perks, pensions, and welfare to the bureaucrats, politicos, and other functionaries. Why have one category of people popping champaign*corks, while another category withering away!

Overall, it appears, the top layers of the society is sticking it to the bottom layer of the very same society by protecting their own privileges at the expense of everything else under the disguise of such inequitable arrangements. No matter how one slices it, this doesn't sound like nation building.

[AZT]

Originally Posted by VeluM

The Army has had reskilling courses in place for years, and had tied up with NASSCOM for industry demanded training and employment assistance too. Several corporates are also involved in their own individual capacity. This is well before Agniveer.

Finally, no one is asking current serving or retired soldiers to give up anything. The suggestion is irrelevant because their pensions remain by virtue of their full term service. The Agniveers selected to become regulars will get these same benefits. The scheme is forward looking, not snatching from those who’ve already spent their lives in service.

My point was all those ex retired touting this for the greater good don’t ever mention they are the reason the budget is bloated. Also, the quantum of people would increase by a margin now for reskilling and that excess would be needed to be absorbed into the workforce.

The whole snatching point is BS, tough decisions need to be made and that should also be on the table if we feel the forces pay check is bloated and will get even more so going forward. Ignoring the rest as no logic will change your mind and don’t want to prolong.

[PreludeSH]

Overwhelming factor for distrust among India's citizens towards Govt's policies is the lack of credibility.

Any time any policy is being talked about, it raises questions on how the people making the policies themselves behave and prosper with no regard to spending tax money. Pessimism and dis-enchantment will lead more misery with no drastic steps encouraged. It could lead to very slow progress.

[shaheenazk]

Originally Posted by 400notout

Who wants to pay bills of war cripples and out of use service men?

The pensions of politicians should also be done away with. This Agniveer scheme is an excuse to get rid of the pensions of Army personnel. Does the PM want Army jawans or contractual labour?

[IndieGooner]

Genuine question - can an Indian citizen be legally employed by a foreign private military company? I'm here referring to companies like Blackwater which has its fair share of infamy. I am aware that Indians have worked as civilian contractors in war torn countries like Iraq and Afghanistan. Are there laws to prevent men trained by Indian army getting utilised by such entities?

PS: the intention of this post is not to cook up conspiracy theories. I'm genuinely curious to know whether an Indian citizen can be employed as an armed operative by a non government entity outside our borders.

[LEGION_FIVE]

Originally Posted by srini1785

What use would a million men army have if your opponent has the latest tech gadgets?. That's the logic behind this move. So army would be a leaner more advanced unit. It makes some sense. So my .

By that logic, all countries should have dismantled their infantry right after the invention of the atomic/nuclear bombs. You need but a few eggheads to fire one and win the whole damn war for you. Why need soldiers? Or even tanks, jets, howitzers?

To build on that, I have a simple question- why did Russia, being a nuclear power, invade Ukraine with conventional arms? If your logic is to be applied, they shouldn't have taken that many losses to begin with because they have not the latest, but the greatest tech gadgets of all- a nuclear warhead.

[Gaur]

Originally Posted by IndieGooner

Genuine question - can an Indian citizen be legally employed by a foreign private military company? I'm here referring to companies like Blackwater which has its fair share of infamy. I am aware that Indians have worked as civilian contractors in war torn countries like Iraq and Afghanistan. Are there laws to prevent men trained by Indian army getting utilised by such entities?

PS: the intention of this post is not to cook up conspiracy theories. I'm genuinely curious to know whether an Indian citizen can be employed as an armed operative by a non government entity outside our borders.

I knew a Ex-MARCOS operator who post early retirement was working as a underwater Welder for a foreign oil and gas contractor, job was related to maintainance of deep sea oil rigs particular looking after underwater welding which is a very demanding and specialised job.
Heard he was paid handsomely.

So to answer your questions, anything could be possible but you would need a extremely talented guy for such a job not someone with just 4-5 yrs experience.
Also any such job will be high paying, will immediately raise eyebrows in the society as the soldier community is strongly connected.

[hondatoyotafan]

Originally Posted by shaheenazk

The pensions of politicians should also be done away with. This Agniveer scheme is an excuse to get rid of the pensions of Army personnel. Does the PM want Army jawans or contractual labour?

also the pensions and huge benefits of babus must go. Compared to those even the benefits given to army officers is paltry.

Originally Posted by VeluM

Army Brat here, with four generations in the forces. Yes, including the British Indian Army.

Also read up on the reasoning behind the corporatisation and proposed privatisation of the Ordinance Factories. If you thought Air India was draining tax payers money, that’s a laugh compared to the OFB.

MES or military engineering service is another big drain on taxpayer money

[fawad0222]

https://indianexpress.com/article/op...tests-7979936/

An excellent insightful article coming directly from the horse's mouth. Its impact is simple.

1. Any reform of the armed forces should aim at improving the effectiveness of the forces,. It should not start bearing only the management of finances only. For that there is whole lot remaining in the country..

2. Modernisation of the forces is imperative.

3. Any reform planned should take baby steps initially.

[Lalvaz]

Originally Posted by Wason4699

Having belonged to one such ghost regiment of the Army I hope I am entitled to have my views on this post.

It's the man firing the weapon who matters not the weapon. If someone thinks pension is costly for the country try defeat.

And at last i would willingly accept the Agniveer theory.If all the VIP protectees accept them as their Bodyguards instead of NSG , SPG.

Thank you sir for your service, and for voicing your opinion so succinctly.

[Fuldagap]

It is pitiful to see members who go on and say that army is no MGNREGA in terms of providing employment. Of course it is not. Induction in the armed forces is done on the basis of set competitive standards across ranks. For that particular rank, from that particular background, it is quite competitive for an individual to get inside. Be it the Air Force, Army or the Navy for whichever rank. I'm pretty sure such comments were made out of haste and not proper thought.

People fearing the that a short period of 4 years of service could convert some trained Agniveers into criminals; well nobody at this point could tell that. Only time will tell whether it is a possibility or not. Maj Gen Shahbeg Singh wreaked havoc on the mightiest commandos in 1984. We suffered great loss at his behest. Even the aftermath was behemoth. Some former army men indeed became criminals, especially in U.P.
But this should not be taken into context and taint the current sceme with it. We don't know and nobody can tell as of now. Other countries which have similar schemes in their armies don't have similar per capita income and other socio economic problems like us. For eg. Israel.

People who think that some soldiers join the forces to plant their bum clearly have no idea what they are talking about. Induction and consequent service in the forces is not easy, it is quite difficult. An individual has to clear a set benchmark for induction. Plus the induction process is also rife with corruption across levels. The training and service both are amply demanding for all personnel equally.

Also, soldiers, especially from the Air Force do so well after their completion of service that they sometimes put to shame most degree holders. In the Airforce, personnel get more 'own time' due to which they are able to study alongside their service. Some go on to crack civil services or state services. There are ample examples.

One of my fantastic professors in college was an Airman in his first job in the IAF. While teaching us, he was CEO of a big auto vendor. He had so many degrees in his kitty that I can't even remember.

However, getting a job after leaving the armed forces is not easy in our country. For ex servicemen it is quite scary afterwards to find a respectful job in terms of monetary compensation and balance of life or sheer work profile. Mostly they end up as security guards or supervisors in malls unless they are from a solid financial or family background so as to start a small business or get a respectful job somewhere.

I can give endless examples of how tough it is for even the most trained, most elite if you may, to find proper jobs afterwards but narrating them here would be futile I guess. Too many stories of too many personnel. One of my martial arts instructor was an earstwhile commando from a unit that shouldn't be mentioned. Harayana guy. After retirement he joined a popular hotel as a security personnel. Pay was 40K per month. Got shocked at the private company culture and left the job within a couple of months. He joined a central goverment department as a consultant after a gap of 2 years that too because he got lucky to have some friends over there. His salary there was 25K per month, and the nature of duties were nothing to be proud of. A certificate of being an Agniveer, therefore, would just be a piece of paper in their hands after four years and nothing more.

As another member has said, there is corruption everywhere, defense being no exception.

When a soldier enters his unit, the actual job after his training, serves in dire conditions, lives along with his buddies, sees and lives horrors; he automatically solidifies himself with his unit. Wherever he goes on in his life, he remains part of the unit till his death.
Such soldiers, when the calling comes, do not think about anything else but their unit and function immaculately thereby. True for any personnel, be an OR or an officer.

When entering the forces, it is not the 'signing up for' for most jawans, it is the respect and stable income that comes with it along with other benefits for the dependants. The 'signing up for' part maybe comes later when they volunteer for courses or tasks or trainings that require exceptional self motivation, physical and mental standards. Such courses have very high rejection ratio and zero room for ones ego.

As few members have mentioned in thier posts, we can see youngsters running on highways early mornings to make themselves fit to get listed, are not doing so to be bums after joining.

Apart from the man, material and logistics, one major factor for any unit or the force to be successful is the morale. The morale is made up of or made due to a combination of many many factors. Whether this new scheme dents a hole in the morale or boosts it or doesn't affect it, is a thing only time will tell. By the looks of it, it looks grim.

Moreover, the logic that this scheme would push the jawans into being more efficient and proficient in their profiles if they want to get into the 25% is totally unfounded. This could be achieved in a very proper manner by raising the standards in the existing selection and service criteria. Which I think is not necessary as the standards for units are already par excellence as per their own needs.

Those black gates that exist make sure that the yellow leaves get shred at the gates only, if you know what I mean.

Lastly, having ones folks in a certain govt department/force is one thing and having served and committed thyself to that department/unit is altogether a different ballgame.

[iamwhatiam]

A lot of well elocuted posts have already been made (with varying degrees of rationality behind them). My general 2 cents:

1. Like many other govt. driven schemes, this one comes with good intentions

2. Like many other govt. driven schemes, clearly enough thought was not put into the execution of the scheme. Hence, the 'sweeteners' being added later on, that frankly should have been included from the beginning

3. The fundamental problem in Indian society has become the lack of employment opportunities available to youth in rural/semi-urban India, and the consequent frustration. The reaction (over- or not) is, at least partially, driven by that

One has to wonder why the govt. bungles up everytime it announces such a major initiative. Is it because of lack of enough smarts on the table, or the inability to listen to feedback?

Either ways, this continues to be a pattern, that outside of the polarized environment of today's India, would've probably cost a few top politicians/administrators their jobs.

PS: Huge respect for anyone who chose/chooses to enter the armed forces (regardless of their reason), and thank you for your service.

[Indepth]

My 2 cents:

1. I believe in "something is better than nothing". So I support such initiative, since it means more employment, even if short term.

2. An engineering graduate or similar has no job guarantee, so why we expect same for an Agniveer?? (its optional to join as one, if you don't want just don't join). I mean I respect armed forces but for eg: Is a Municipal worker less important?. Both serve the nation, but a Municipal worker seldom gets due respect.

3. To address the general public outcry regarding weapon trained youth left unattended. I think army should taken more responsibility, and thus should spin a web around the govt in order to ensure future placement opportunities for most of these vulnerable youth.
(Not a guarantee, but a Govt. policy at least)

4. All these "Agniveers" should be the last piece of defense.We don't want these youth to be considered as cheap soldiers.In case of a war or similar, they should be considered as a sort of "reserve force".

5. Last but not the least. A 5 year MLA/MP gets pension and what not. I am against Govt. pension in general.I mean every citizen should get it.But if one has to choose between a politician or a soldier, then the answer is a no brainer.

[senthilmohan]

I see that those who supports agnipath are boasting the 30-40k per month salary and the 11 lakh seva nidhi at the end of 4 years. We need to keep in mind that half of this 11 lakh comes from their salary itself.
The 25% is not the definitive number to be selected into the regular cadre. It is upto 25%. The remaining are army trained with 12th pass. What kind of opportunities we've for people with this qualification as of now and at what numbers?
The 'compulsory military services for all' would have been a better option for the mentioned budget reason. But that will never happen as this financial reason is not the exact and the only reason.