[TheCamShaft]

Originally Posted by FlankerFury

Splitting off Pakistan into multiple independent nations like in 1971 is going to be hugely expensive and difficult due to presence of nuclear weapons in the region.

Not necessarily militarily but through sustained under the covers diplomacy efforts , this must be the strategy to dismantle and break our hostile neighbor's back in the long term. What's going on with their SW frontier is a classic example.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

Curiously, there was also a 4.0 earthquake at 0144 hours on Saturday. Make what you will of that.

It might be an underground Pak nuclear test (signal to the world). Or a coincidental earthquake.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...4.cms?from=mdr

I didn't mention this because I didn't want my post to appear too conspiratorial

[jomyboy]

What I get is the first day of the attack was the perfect response any country could give that was attacked by militants. The problem is we went in without an end game. Next time, Doval & co. will need to think hard and long about that. I mean even a massive superpower like Russia has not been able to do much with Ukraine. So, full credit to the government when they decided that we have enough of manpower in our army and future wars are going to be decided by loitering munitions and what not. Hopefully, this short war has opened our eyes in that "humans" are just going to be sitting ducks in this age of warfare. We just need to iron out the last bit of details, especially on the diplomacy front and I think with time and experience we can get to where the western powers are today.

[dust-n-bones]

Originally Posted by locusjag

This is why in every conflict, Karachi will be the jugular vein that India will go for.

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Good. Now we know exactly where to precision strike the next time they mess around.

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

But we could have taken Skardu.

Aren't we drawing the completely wrong conclusion? Conventional war between India and Pak is possible in an extremely small window defined by Pakistan's nuclear red line. Grabbing territory, threatening water or commerce, or of course, targeting its nuclear sites, are all beyond the pale. They don't have a published doctrine like India, but there is a well publicized interview by their first head of Strategic Command, General Kidwai, look it up.

Hitting Pakistan's airbases is I think more of the same. This serves no purpose, unless the intent is to degrade the air force for a ground invasion. We started off to deter terrorism. Going so far beyond the remit, we doomed the whole operation. Once America saw the red lines being crossed, there was no option but to being forced to sit in the dog house with Pakistan.

Unless we want armageddon. Pakistan is crazy enough to push the button, so that is not an empty threat. We should thank America it drilled some sense into imbeciles this weekend.

[Linuskm]

Originally Posted by jomyboy

What I get is the first day of the attack was the perfect response any country could give that was attacked by militants. The problem is we went in without an end game. Next time, Doval & co. will need to think hard and long about that. I mean even a massive superpower like Russia has not been able to do much with Ukraine. So, full credit to the government when they decided that we have enough of manpower in our army and future wars are going to be decided by loitering munitions and what not. Hopefully, this short war has opened our eyes in that "humans" are just going to be sitting ducks in this age of warfare. We just need to iron out the last bit of details, especially on the diplomacy front and I think with time and experience we can get to where the western powers are today.

Exceptional achievement for the armed forces and the scientific community of defence organizations. This has blown the nuclear threat shield pakistan used to play and has limited our response every time. I am glad to have seen the shift in paradigm of how we deal with terror from the other side.

Poor PR and narrative from GOI in pushing the information (don't know if this was intentional to keep the rhetoric down and not inflate passions of aam junta) out to the world, this would have played a key role and de-hyphenating the India Pakistan relationship. This was a missed opportunity in placing ourselves in the next league of Nations. Poor performance of typical sarkari Babu.

Hopefully the next steps of IWT renegotiation and advancement of defence technology with self reliance as a key measure will be followed thru by the government .

[searacer932]

Guys,

Please understand the following - We have changed a lot from the times of 2001 parliament attack to now. I remember the Indian government took no retaliation action for each of the following major terror attacks

• 2001 Indian Parliament Attack
• 2005 Delhi Bombings
• 2006 Varanasi Bombings
• 2006 Mumbai Train Bombings
• 2007 Hyderabad Bombings
• 2008 Mumbai Attacks (26/11)
• 2010 Pune German Bakery Blast
• 2013 Hyderabad Dilsukhnagar Blasts
• 2015 Gurdaspur Attack

However, things have changed now. We have attacked Pakistan and I am sure we will continue to attack Pakistan for any terror attacks that they undertake on India. India has responded back for each of the below attack.

• 2016 Pathankot Airbase Attack
• 2016 Uri Attack
• 2019 Pulwama Attack
• 2025 Pahalgam/Baisaran Valley Attack

This is much different from the Indian Government of 2000s. I was shocked to know that the Indian Government had released 25 Pakistani terrorists in 2010 as a good will gesture. What good will we got from this gesture? Some of these terrorists then plotted the 2016 Pathankot attack.

2010: 18 months post the 26/11 Mumbai attacks the Indian Government released 25 terrorists. Why?

Source : https://www.indiatoday.in/india/stor...384-2010-05-28

The Jammu and Kashmir government has released 25 Pakistani terrorists lodged in various prisons of the country on the advice of the Union home ministry. The state government on Thursday revoked the detention orders of these terrorists, mostly belonging to the Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) and the Hizbul Mujahideen (HM), and will facilitate their return to Pakistan.

Not a single Indian languishing in the Pakistani jails is, however, being set free in exchange of these militants.

[theabstractmind]

I want to share a perspective than rhetoric.

On one of my projects in a middle-east country, I met a person from PoK. He said - "we are first Kashmiris. Given a choice, we would want to join India. But Indians treat Kashmiris with suspicion. I can't get my son into an Indian school as they treat us like Pakistanis. The Pakistani regime has spoilt our culture by handing guns into hands of 16-17 year olds."

Truth is that, in politics - common man suffers. Ask the hundreds and thousands of Kashmiris who lost someone in their family to a terrorist merely on the suspicion of supporting the Indian regime. Or the ones who were at times wrongly penalized on the suspicion of harboring terrorists. Though sporadic, there have been known fake encounters. And ask the families who lost a policeman or a soldier - Kashmiri or otherwise - to an act of terrorism or war. They will be proud of the sacrifice, but with a void which cannot be filled.

So, while we discuss from the comfort of our chairs on the virtues of a political victory in a war, let's also give a second thought to the lives of the soldiers on whose life we want to bet our safety and virtues. Politics, terrorism and wars cost more than some planes, arms, and airbases. They cost the psyche of the society. Let's be careful on what we wish for.

Note: I won't attempt to defend or respond to any challenge to my perspective. Intention is not to debate.

[NomadSK]

Originally Posted by CarNerd

Even the most isolated country in the world, North Korea trades with China, frequently launches missile tests and threatens Japan and South Korea with no fear. Russia supports North Korea as well

That's a rogue dictator country and worst enemy of US, only country in the world who has captured a US warship. Hence China/Russia supports that dynasty. Pakistan has alteast pseudo democracy to show the world.

There is absolutely no way of opening and closing the tap as required except stopping the sharing of data. To close the tap, we need massive investments for projects on a large scale and consider the risk of heightened seismic activity. In any case, IWT is a double edged sword as China can use the same weapon against us:

Opening & closing the tap doesn't mean we have to build the infrastructure. It means we will not be informing them how and when the sluice gates would be opened or closed. Bhagliar, URI, Salal Dam and few more, the flow can be curtailed when they need it and disposed off when they don't need water, there are enough hydraulic engineers sitting higher up to take the decision. Earlier we had to inform them and take their approvals for desilting the dams, now we don't have to. Don't go by the media that it will need huge investment and ages to divert the water, we actually don't have to, just need to fluctuate the flow.

America wants Taiwan to be an independent country and supplies arms to defend itself from China. It's entirely different from the Kashmir dispute.

Yes, but you are taking my point out of context, I'm not comparing Kashmir dispute here. I'm just saying we are little pawns that Trumps want to come in the picture to mediate. Point is we should be self sufficient to take care of our issues and no third party should meddle in that. And if you want 3rd party intervention, then be ready to hand over Kashmir to Pakistan on a platter.

If all the world powers including the US, EU, Russia, etc come together and find a solution, it would be great to establish long lasting peace and development. Otherwise, this kind of attacks and conflicts are bound to happen and we have to spend a large part of our GDP on weapons.

There was a UN resolution, with certain conditions, which our neighbor doesn't want to adhere. They have to first ensure whether it's a land issue or a religion issue. They are ideologically standing on a weak ground. They support Palestine for the reason that Israel never existed before 1947, but then Pakistan also never existed before 1947, so that makes it an illegal entity. Now don't take this out of context, saying this, cuz their Army gets money by keeping Kashmir issue on burner and they would never want to resolve this issue. And this was true for India too, Bofors, lobbying for defense deals, Italian helicopters. Both sides dispensation have milked Kashmir for ages for their ulterior motives and till today we have no permanent solution. Earlier there was no will to solve from both sides, but now I can see atleast one side is looking to integrate Kashmir with India. Dil abhi bhi Dilli se door hai, that's what locals say.

We are dealing with a country that broke into two, suffered a humiliating defeat in 1971 and yet decided to occupy our territory in 1999 before retreating. When 1971 couldn't prevent them from doing 1999, what's the guarantee 2025 would prevent them in the future?

This itself should ring bells for the policy makers that war isn't the solution. The best option for a rabid dog is, either to neutralize it or manage it (diplomatically). Former isn't the solution.

Pakistan can't but China can. Pakistan is China's henchman and the Boss would be more than happy to see his aide trouble his main competitor India while the Boss can focus on growing his empire. Money is not a problem for the Boss as long as he has loyal men fighting for him. Who knows in future, the Boss might even make Bangladesh a second henchman to trouble us if we don't pay attention.

Boss and his henchman would go down as super boss comes in the picture. historically speaking super boss doesn't allow another super boss to stay in picture for long. And I have a gut feeling the henchman will bring the downfall of his boss.

[carhead]

This conflict, possibly our first major conflict in the full-blown social media age has also demonstrated how the propaganda & mis-information battle is played out.

Let Pakistan tear itself apart. We should focus on strengthening our nation economically and from a defence stand point.

[TheHelix0202]

Originally Posted by jomyboy

What I get is the first day of the attack was the perfect response any country could give that was attacked by militants.

Small correction that holds significant weight - terrorists, not militants.

[Centauri]

With all the action over the past few days one thing is clear we seem to have built in very effective defense and offense capabilities over the past few years along our borders, and our forces have shown their mettle in stopping and negating most of their cowardly attacks , and then counter punching them hard. While this temporary arrangement might bring us peace for now, as a nation we should always prepared with our plan and stategies to counter their nefarious plans in the days and months to come..

[Shrix458]

USA needs India on its side as a counterbalance to China's influence. But does not want India to be so strong that it could be a potential threat to its hegemony. So it needs and supports Pakistan's narrative of "We have nukes"
That is the reason it has been supporting India to an extent until 9th May.
ie: Vance's statement that this war is none of their business.

But, when India negated every single thing Pak threw at us, and on top of that, proved how silly their air defence system was by hitting their military installations. To an extent of humiliating Pakistan, it became a threat to the American power projection. India could have easily hit Pakistani nuclear installations at the slightest of escalation from Pakistan.

US wants to protect Pakistani nuclear assets. That is the reason for this sudden change from Trump to be the peacemaker.
India put forward its point that, "We will accept your request. But any future terror attack from Pakistan will be considered as an act of war". US readily accepted it.

Now, we will have to see to what extent Trump can control this terror state called Pakistan. Seems doubtful.

[suryaj1990]

I believe Ceasefire is holding up now

[teslageek]

Originally Posted by Shrix458

USA needs India on its side as a counterbalance to China's influence. But does not want India to be so strong that it could be a potential threat to its hegemony.

US hegemony is already done and there are two power centers already, both militarily and economically and I think even the US establishment knows that although they wont like to admit it. China's reaction to trump's trade war should have told you that already. And you need to also look at how far China is with their defence tech that they are challenging US if not beat them at their own game. US does not have the industrial military complex of China either because China is undisputed when it comes to manufacturing at scale.

They have had a breakthrough in developing their advanced fully home grown silicon chips, inspite of US sanctions on supplying any related tech to China.
https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other...gh/ar-AA1DNjSr

The so called counterbalance theory is long gone. I wont comment on the rest because it very speculative.

[CarNerd]

Originally Posted by NomadSK

Pakistan has alteast pseudo democracy to show the world.

That's what I wanted to say that it's very difficult to isolate a country that has good relations with China.

Opening & closing the tap doesn't mean we have to build the infrastructure. It means we will not be informing them how and when the sluice gates would be opened or closed. Bhagliar, URI, Salal Dam and few more

Don't go by the media that it will need huge investment and ages to divert the water, we actually don't have to, just need to fluctuate the flow.

Not informing about opening and closing dam gates means we have dam infrastructure in the first place. Do we have dams on every river/tributary that flows into Pakistan? How can we fluctuate the flow without dams? What's the water flowing from rivers without dams compared to water flowing with dams in terms of percentage? Unless we have technical data about everything, we can't be sure that it would affect Pakistan.

Point is we should be self sufficient to take care of our issues and no third party should meddle in that. And if you want 3rd party intervention, then be ready to hand over Kashmir to Pakistan on a platter.

How can a dispute be resolved without third party unless both parties come to an agreement by themselves? And why do you think a third party would ask the handover of Kashmir to Pakistan? That's not how mediation works in any dispute. Mediators consider the positions of both sides, find a middle ground and work towards a solution that is acceptable to both sides. It's a long drawn and complex process which has to be carefully worked out.

There was a UN resolution, with certain conditions, which our neighbor doesn't want to adhere. They have to first ensure whether it's a land issue or a religion issue. They are ideologically standing on a weak ground. They support Palestine for the reason that Israel never existed before 1947, but then Pakistan also never existed before 1947, so that makes it an illegal entity.

It's an entirely different dispute as the boundaries of Israel were clearly defined whereas the British left Kashmir as it was. Also, we need to stop comparing India with Israel because Israel is an occupying power under international laws while India is not. The moment we start supporting Israel, we are indirectly accepting that we are occupying Kashmir.

Boss and his henchman would go down as super boss comes in the picture. historically speaking super boss doesn't allow another super boss to stay in picture for long. And I have a gut feeling the henchman will bring the downfall of his boss.

The super boss is getting old and weak, the boss is getting to replace the super boss in the near future.