[NetfreakBombay]

Originally Posted by msdivy

That is very heartening to know the ratio of US:India salaries are improving

IMO, there is a nuance :

1. Jobs in India is moving up tech Pyramid (From IT Services to better jobs)
2. For some job, US salaries are 3X of India, for others it is 12X

Taking Graduate salaries as an example since these numbers are public :



Sources :

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/bu...s-4691931.html

https://theprint.in/india/education/...r-2019/556037/

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/bu...s-4691931.html

This is old news, but also not very groundbreaking because it is about IIT.

But the current news is about VTU graduates, that basically breaks this thing wide open. It is terrifying to employers like me, because it changes the entire budget calculation for future.

[NetfreakBombay]

Originally Posted by Samurai

IIT...VTU graduates, that basically breaks this thing wide open. It is terrifying to employers like me, because it changes the entire budget calculation for future.

This has been the case for last few years (2010 or so). Top 7 IITs can no longer provide sufficient numbers, so companies are hiring from all other sources as well including online contests.

In my experience and opinion, it should not have any impact because the pool is very different. In a batch of 60, very few will get such offers. Those were probably not the target anyway for other companies.

Difference is, in older IITs almost 30% of batch (Comp Sci.) will have such offers.

[CDART]

Originally Posted by Samurai

This is old news, but also not very groundbreaking because it is about IIT.

But the current news is about VTU graduates, that basically breaks this thing wide open. It is terrifying to employers like me, because it changes the entire budget calculation for future.

We have stopped being an IIT exclusive team years ago. It makes no sense as we can find similar calibre students in other top students and the top IIT students are loathe to stay back no matter the renumeration.

[Vishal.R]

One point I think some of the employers are missing is that the current wave is not initiated by "IT workers", using any tactic like unions / strikes / political pressure etc. It could have been considered as unhealthy if it was initiated by such way.

It is started by employers only when new business opportunities came, so employee can think of leaving existing job only if they receive better offer.

Also, no employer can guaranty employment to a person regardless of business situations, employee's performance, fitment of his/her skills with organization objectives etc.
So if we expect an employee to stick to his/her job even if significant hike is expected outside, there is no guarantee that same person won't get pink slip in future.

Also, many employers complain about candidates not honouring offers and join other organization on joining day, but even last year, many companies did defer/revoke their offer to campus recruits or even in some cases to literals as well due to "change in business circumstances", so why candidates are expected to stick to their consent to join company.

Another factor is if all "business leaders"/employers would stick to a policy that they will only consider current salary to offer hike and won't consider any existing offer, this "unprofessional" practice of gathering offers by Indian IT engineers (which does not exist in other countries as per some of the employers) will stop.

If an employer provides training to employee, generally a clause of recovering expanse if employee leaves in some specified time is always present, now if some other organization is ready to pay higher pay plus additional bonus, so either current organization should also have offered some hike to employee or the company which is trying to poach such employee should also be accused of unprofessional practices.

Have also observed that everyone in management tries to pass the bucks to their junior management in times like these, and it ends up reaching at the layer which is just above "developer" kind of roles (Designation can be anything like Lead Engineer, Project Manager, Team Lead, sometimes Technical Architect etc.), so pressure is built there and It may be reason for someone to start looking elsewhere, who did not want to jump initially. (We have very insightful post from someone in similar situation but couldn't find now)

Originally Posted by Romins

Something light on this serious topic.
Employee as a Service.

Its already there. Its called contractual employee. Most of the management sector moved to this model also European companies also heavily using this model for software related work.

[Romins]

Originally Posted by Vishal.R

Its already there. Its called contractual employee. Most of the management sector moved to this model also European companies also heavily using this model for software related work.

A year ago, pay was much better on freelance platforms for such contractual jobs for IT. But now the salaries offered by Indian companies are much higher than those hourly rates.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by VaibhavShatna95

Contrary to your views, we have capabilities which Fortune 500 companies are unable to maintain/innovate and hence outsource the work to us.

Name one world class technology company built purely on outsourcing? A non IT fortune 500 company outsourcing IT contracts for an internal system to be built is different to a technology company doing actual core technology work.

[VaibhavShatna95]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Name one world class technology company built purely on outsourcing? A non IT fortune 500 company outsourcing IT contracts for an internal system to be built is different to a technology company doing actual core technology work.

Google it please. Without enumerating too much 2 of the trillion dollar big tech companies have outsourced to us

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by VaibhavShatna95

These guys came at the time of license raj, where India itself didn't want to be included in globalisation. Deeds do more than words for me. Sorry if I have offended anyone.

Since you insist on pushing greatness of Infosys relentlessly, let me bring some historic perspective. I didn't google, I just happened to be working in the industry even 30 years ago.

Prior to 1991 reforms, Infosys was tiny and a very ordinary company. I had colleagues (salesmen) visiting their office to sell software and coming back very unimpressed. So let's not attribute any greatness to their pre-reforms performance. Then TCS was the biggest software company in India, built pre-reforms, but not the largest IT company. Then hardware companies were the biggest, not software ones. Only around 1997-98 or so software started outgrowing hardware companies in India.

Infosys decided to take advantage of the 1992-93 stock market boom and became listed, and even at US stock exchange. That financing enabled them to go on their most brilliant strategy ever.

I was in US during 1993-95, so I was unaware about what was happening in India. With highly discounted 0.70/minute calling rate to India, it was hard to discuss anything beyond family. So when I returned to Bangalore in 1995, there was a new saint in town. Infosys had successfully branded their CEO into a saint, and he had become a household name. Their shares were soaring and everyone had only great things to say. They gave stock options to all the early folks, even to the level of drivers and janitors, which really spread the gospel to every level. Even auto/taxi drivers knew about Infosys CEO. Meanwhile, the CEO of TCS, the largest software company in India was unknown to anyone outside of the industry. By then Indian IT was quarter century old, and the name of the Father of Indian IT industry was unknown outside the industry too, that is true even today. But you can google it even now. He passed away only last year.

Infosys has never beaten TCS in either revenue or size. Once TCS got listed, they remained larger than Infosys in market cap too. But one will never know that based on the PR and branding.

[Vishal.R]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Since you insist on pushing greatness of Infosys relentlessly, let me bring some historic perspective. I didn't google, I just happened to be working in the industry even 30 years ago.

Yes even I am "junior" in industry in comparison to Samurai (I have completed 15-16 years), but after reading this excellent post from him, I recollect one article I read many years ago which is on similar lines but something which not everyone was talking about that time. Same things were kind of verified later, so tried with searching on google and able to find the link.

Please find link below,

The story of India's 3 IT biggies

[DigitalOne]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Since you insist on pushing greatness of Infosys relentlessly, let me bring some historic perspective. I didn't google, I just happened to be working in the industry even 30 years ago.

....So when I returned to Bangalore in 1995, there was a new saint in town. ....

Infosys has never beaten TCS in either revenue or size. Once TCS got listed, they remained larger than Infosys in market cap too. But one will never know that based on the PR and branding.

The saints of Infosys originally came from Patni Computers which was already successful doing the offshore software model. Infosys PR has been successful in convincing a lot of people that the founders "invented" the offshore software delivery model .

[NetfreakBombay]

Interesting that ET ran a story today that touches on this topic :

Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay

80s/90s were a tough place to do Software business. Every version that was shipped out of India required clearances from babus.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/85615855.cms

Till then, in the controlled regime set by the socialistic policy of the Nehru era, Infosys could not grow. One could not get the dollars to travel, capital could not be raised without controls, one could not export easily and there were so many hazards.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by VaibhavShatna95

Google it please. Without enumerating too much 2 of the trillion dollar big tech companies have outsourced to us

I asked you a simple question "Name one world class technology company built purely on outsourcing?" and I havent got my answer.

As an example - google would never outsource development of their search engine, something the company is built upon or Apple outsourcing the development of iOS and Mac operating system or the hardware which it runs or Tesla outsourcing the development of their self driving software. I can always outsource low hanging fruits like a software to manage payments inside the store for example or even maintaining the website for example. Thats not core technology work for these companies. I know which trillion $ companies are you talking about and the outsourced work as well.

[dragonfire]

Infosys was different from Wipro and TCS in that they practically started from scratch while the other two had business powerhouses backing them.

And they were a bit snobbish in the beginning. Charging higher margins, recruiting only the supposedly "best" etc. The latter created quite a bit of bad blood in the job market. They are well past that yet remain the most hated Indian IT company.

[VaibhavShatna95]

Guys lets not go off track. I never pushed Infosys as the founder of global delivery model or the likes. Neither did I ever compare it to its competitors. I am sure they would be equally as good if they have made it as big. The only reason I mentioned its name is because I am an employee of theirs and have first hand experience working with this company.

The only point I raised was against the negativity being pushed against all Indian IT firms like how they were evil incarnated and used cheap labour rates. People like to portray new age product based companies as a messiah for us oppressed Indians.

I just published some facts as how it was harder to do business when these big public houses were created and it is because of them that Indian software industry is regarded as it is.

There were some accusations against the starting salaries and training and development opportunities in these firms and how employee working in these organisations are somehow second tier.

To clarify, and it would be my last post on this topic since it is going out of hand.

I personally worked in pre sales/bid management in the said firm. They hired me as a management trainee. The work was challenging and good since I gained a lot of exposure in bidding for global 500 giants. I was also involved in the largest deal ever done in Indian IT history and we were successful in getting it.
After this I was bored of this role and wanted to re skill in some other vertical as well. The org provided me such an opportunity as well. I was selected after an enterance test and multiple interviews in a post grad tech program as well which was fully company sponsored and had the hike I was looking for.
All of this journey has only been only 2 and a half years with the said organisation and I am wise enough to know that this kind of privilege is not something I would get in every organisation.
It is my sincere wish that India develops into a land of product based startups but that doesn't mean we need to necessarily put down the big IT companies which have facilitated in building this environment. We all also know how many of the said startups would bet on building these capabilities or train freshers. They either like to hire an employee who knows it all already or would hire them as an intern with no job guarantee and equally meagre pay (First hand experience of a lot of friends).

With regards to Infosys founders, yes I hold them in high regards for not only starting the organisation and giving livelihood directly/indirectly to millions but also being the pioneers in setting up the Indian evironment for business. They have helped in setting up the IT framework and laws like Kris Gopalakrishnan or Nandan Nilekani. For whatever good or bad the frameworks do seem to be working since we have developed in this industry so much. You could hold counter views and I am free to hold mine