[Burgman_tales]

Originally Posted by Theyota

You are talking through your hat. Not everyone has to change companies to make more money or grow in their career. There are also still people in this world for whom loyalty is part of their values. Loyalty may not always be to the company. It can also be to their colleagues, mentors or supervisors.

The point was that most of the low earners are the ones who are in their first jobs, the other way round might or might not be true i.e. the ones who stick to their first jobs may or may not be low earners.

The context behind this is witch companies of course. There obviously are companies which treat people really well and give reasonable yearly hikes thereby removing the need to switch jobs just for a decent hike.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Thank you Theyota for often being the voice of sanity and a wider perspective on the IT/WFH etc type of threads. :-) I guess the nature of these threads is such that only those upset and angry will write in giving a skewed picture. Your posts bring a much needed reminder that there is another side to the picture too. Many posts on these threads remind me of unions I dealt with in earlier times - always blaming, always dissatisfied no matter what they got and never exercising agency that the employee took the job after understanding the emoluments, the career prospects and working hours! My experience has been that the cribbers and grumblers in their 20s tend to plateau out before 40 - they are wasting so much energy whining and blaming others that they have less time and inclination to build their EQ, their network, and their competencies. Boss issues, unfair employers, over demanding customers, over work, office politics - these are par for the course - they are everywhere in profession, in business, in Government and so on. Nothing unique to the IT industry. In fact employment in the IT industry is a protected one - even at middle management you don't deal with unions or petty Govt officials or SME suppliers. There is no field duty in the sun and dust of India, no touring remote towns and factories. I could go on. If after having a relatively cushy job albeit with its own professional challenges one has to crib all day it tells me the skill to cope and still pull forward is weak.

You're essentially saying there are many more people with bigger problems so one should accept whatever they get and move on. By that logic labourers working in poor conditions should not complain because there are many people without jobs. Acknowledging and discussing a problem is the first step towards solving it, burying your head in the sand does not do anything.

Today there are tons of tech product companies in India which pay well and have good working culture too. It's time for WITCH companies to understand their problems and fix them

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Burgman_tales

You're essentially saying there are many more people with bigger problems so one should accept whatever they get and move on. By that logic labourers working in poor conditions should not complain because there are many people without jobs.

I do not know if this is a genuine question seeking an adult input/response or is this another one of the pouting, sulky sue statements that this thread is replete with. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. The problems members are facing at their jobs, as expressed on this thread, are the simplest level of problems they will face in a 40 to 45 year career in any industry or as an entrepreneur. If we cannot build the mental muscle, emotional maturity, and internal balance to deal with these simple issues* do not be surprised if at 35 our careers are trailing and at 40 we realize we have been left behind for good. We all need to learn to cope with the uneven road of a career or accept a lower career and financial trajectory in the long run. Some may say that a lower trajectory is okay and that is fine too so long as it is a conscious decision.

I sense on this thread amongst the ranters and whiners an unwillingness to accept their own agency. And social media has provided the perfect platform for anonymous bleating and echo chamber. Bleating doesn't get us anywhere. Building any career needs grit and fortitude. Time and emotional energy expended on bleating takes away from energy left to face the headwinds and move ahead.

In any career and more so as an entrepreneur we cannot always control the problems or unfairness that will fall on our heads but we absolutely control our response and attitude towards these problems. Bleating is not an attitude. Hope is not a strategy.

*typical issues of boss is unfair, work distribution is unfair. my neighbour in the next cubicle draws a 33% higher wage, I don't get the recognition for my work etc. These are career challenges 1.01. If this rattles us so much what will we do when later at higher positions the big breakers crash in

Today there are tons of tech product companies in India which pay well and have good working culture too. It's time for WITCH companies to understand their problems and fix them

Let the WITCH companies sink or swim. We do not owe it to them to reform them. Before we condemn them it would be interesting to hear what the HR Head or CFO of a WITCH company has to say. I can bet my middle name that if our domestic maid servant were asked in confidence about us as her employer some surprises might be in store for most of us!! There are always but always two sides to every situation. In any case the average IT Joe changes jobs every 3 years so why work for a WITCH company. Like I've written before some if not most join India's WITCH companies for the pay, the status, the value in the marriage market, the chance of a foreign posting, no grunt work in the field, a cushy job in a clean air-conditioned environment, great food etc etc. Vast numbers join IT even though their core education (e.g. textile engineering or chemical engineering) is not IT oriented! It is a choice we make then why grumble incessantly as if the world owes us a living or even fair play. It doesn't.

Acknowledging and discussing a problem is the first step towards solving it, burying your head in the sand does not do anything.

I don't see a solution oriented approach on this thread in a majority of the posts. I see ranting and chanting in the main.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

The problems members are facing at their jobs, as expressed on this thread, are the simplest level of problems they will face in a 40 to 45 year career in any industry or as an entrepreneur. If we cannot build the mental muscle, emotional maturity, and internal balance to deal with these simple issues* do not be surprised if at 35 our careers are trailing and at 40 we realize we have been left behind for good.

This reminds me...

About 20 years I had returned to India and co-founded my first company. I might as well say founded because other co-founders were abroad and merely funding the startup. My wife and I had to do all the dance with the local authorities, setup the office, hire people, build a culture, etc.

After a few months I tried to get a personal credit card, at the branch where I had the current account. I was denied, saying I didn't have credit history in India. Fair enough, I decided to manage with debit card like before. However, I noticed that my employees (age 22-23) were issued credit card from the same branch. I rushed to the branch again, and met the manager...

Me: I just noticed that my employees have credit card, while I am denied the same.
She: Yes, salaried employees automatically qualify for credit card.
Me: I am also salaried.
She: Yes, but you are also the director. Not that same thing.
Me: Sorry, I don't understand why that matters.
She: Your risk profile is higher. Your employees have steady salary, you may not.
Me: But I am the one who is giving that salary. If I don't have money to pay credit card bill, you think there will be money to pay salaries?
She: They can move to another job, while you may have much higher liabilities.
Me:

Finally, I had to threaten to move the current account to another bank, before they agreed to give a personal credit card. This is one of the most minor problems I had to deal with.

Early 2020 I started a bootstrapped company, right before the covid lockdowns. For 3.5 years, our bank refused to give any kind of loans to the company or any of our employees saying we were not credit worthy. They asked us to maintain minimum 50L balance to issue a company credit card. Can you imagine starting and running a company during the pandemic years with no external financing. Most cannot imagine, it was a huge struggle. Finally, this year we qualified for car loans, that too required lots of up-close scrutiny.

[NetfreakBombay]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Let's say it is 10 times better, maybe we have 1 lakh good engineers. What about the remaining 27 lakhs?

+1

Jobs will always have differences in skills and salary levels.

Say company A acquires company B and all Oracle Databases of Company B have to be migrated to SQL server / Postgres since CTO happens to not like Oracle.

Such projects just don't need very good developers. Say 200 developers are required for such project.

1. Maybe 10 very good (and well paid developers) to handle complex Triggers, Stored Procedures / Edge cases of query optimisers ; Edge cases of Java/ Node/ Python / Go / C++ DB drivers + ORMs etc
2. Rest 190 can be "good enough" developers who will follow recipes set by these 10

Salaries of 10 and 190 developers will reflect these skill levels. Most probably 190 will come from TCS and similar and 10 from a different pool.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by NetfreakBombay

Such projects just don't need very good developers. Say 200 developers are required for such project.

This is same point I made last year, against the Ken article. No company really needs or can afford all geniuses in their ranks.

[guru_max]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Thank you Theyota for often being the voice of sanity and a wider perspective on the IT/WFH etc type of threads. :-) I guess the nature of these threads is such that only those upset and angry will write in giving a skewed picture. Your posts bring a much needed reminder that there is another side to the picture too. Many posts on these threads remind me of unions I dealt with in earlier times - always blaming, always dissatisfied no matter what they got and never exercising agency that the employee took the job after understanding the emoluments, the career prospects and working hours! My experience has been that the cribbers and grumblers in their 20s tend to plateau out before 40 - they are wasting so much energy whining and blaming others that they have less time and inclination to build their EQ, their network, and their competencies. Boss issues, unfair employers, over demanding customers, over work, office politics - these are par for the course - they are everywhere in profession, in business, in Government and so on. Nothing unique to the IT industry. In fact employment in the IT industry is a protected one - even at middle management you don't deal with unions or petty Govt officials or SME suppliers. There is no field duty in the sun and dust of India, no touring remote towns and factories. I could go on. If after having a relatively cushy job albeit with its own professional challenges one has to crib all day it tells me the skill to cope and still pull forward is weak.

Sir, while i do understand your point, i think people who are complaining in the thread are just venting and ranting and i would guess that most of them would understand the nuances of work life balanice,wfh, politics etc and probably are navigating these problems quite well. This seems to be a place where people come to vent on their inability to change anything, i don't think people are looking for solutions. And the workers/employees of all other industries probably might be doing the same, but the avenues might be different.

For what its worth, having worked in the so called WITCH companies and then a pretty good company, both have their places. The former companies have helped millions people transition from poor to middle class. My only gripe is that, there are still lakhs of damn good employees in these companies who are not willing to switch away due to fear of risk, lack of exposure and host of other reasons. If these employees were working in a place where their talents could be better utilised, our software industry would be in a far better place.

[pramod]

Let me provide a view of the salary situation approximately in Mobile telecom Product companies.
I am stating these not on hearsay but based on my leadership role for the past 18 years in the same industry, being a fresher in 2005.

1. The big telecom providers from the Scandivanian region are not big pay masters.
2. They start off with a package of 5-7 Lakhs pa in campus for freshers.
3. In the big product companies like E//, N****, the 10 yr mark are generally in 25 Lakh bracket. 15 yr salary marks for a Manager/Snr.Manager is at 40 L pa mark.
4. Come to Startup or smaller product companies and you would see 6-12 lakh initial fresher salary.
5. Startups and smaller companies pay 30 Lakhs for 10-12 yr exp. (Generally top talent in Operations/Testing earn 3x. Average talent stay at 2x.
6. At 15-20 yr mark, with bonus components, smaller companies pay between 65L to 1.1 cr.
7. Salaries above 1.3 Crores is not based on trends. Its for very specific talent who remain pillars of the company in one way or the other.

All these salaries have nothing to do being in R&D versus customer Operations/technical product support Versus Testing. In this sector, all roles have equal weightage, UNLIKE in service companies.

Regards
Pramod

[alpha1]

Somehow reading this thread gives me an impression that most people in IT industry who would be aged more than 40 should be crorepatis!

Hmm, that explains the rising prices of houses/real estate and cars. People are happy spending those huge amounts ...

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by alpha1

Somehow reading this thread gives me an impression that most people in IT industry who would be aged more than 40 should be crorepatis!

Seriously.... when I see these figures, I wish I stayed as an employee and not become an entrepreneur. I would have been much richer, and driving Germans. After 20 years of entrepreneurship, I keep shifting between Suzuki and Hyundai.

But then, I couldn't put up with the idiosyncrasies of corporate life even in my 20s, I wouldn't have lasted long.

[hondatoyotafan]

Originally Posted by alpha1

Somehow reading this thread gives me an impression that most people in IT industry who would be aged more than 40 should be crorepatis!

Hmm, that explains the rising prices of houses/real estate and cars.

It is actually not so for the majority of the IT guys. Even though the CTC reaches 50 Lacs+ there are a lot of variables components and the taxation is very high.

[xcentrk]

Originally Posted by alpha1

Somehow reading this thread gives me an impression that most people in IT industry who would be aged more than 40 should be crorepatis!

Hmm, that explains the rising prices of houses/real estate and cars. People are happy spending those huge amounts ...

Crores of people are employed in IT and even if we take 1% as high-paying, you still have 1 lakh people.

Average salary for 13+ IT guys, is varied from 15L to 1Cr! Depends on where you work and what you do.

And even if you get high salary, taxes and variable component eat more than what one may think. This is one of the reason why I quit my fulltime and started a company. Even though the total project value is less, I can still get more than what I got from a much higher salary package in hand.

In hindsight, I see most of the IT employees living paycheck to paycheck middle class life and we are one step away from bankruptcy if there is no help from family or friends or have assets.

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by xcentrk

In hindsight, I see most of the IT employees living paycheck to paycheck middle class life and we are one step away from bankruptcy if there is no help from family or friends or have assets.

I am actually appalled by that statement!
A person earning >50 lakhs and being one step away from bankruptcy!
What kind of monthly expenses do people in IT have that makes them perch so precariously? What kind of "meagre" savings would they have at this income level?

[xcentrk]

Originally Posted by alpha1

I am actually appalled by that statement!
A person earning >50 lakhs and being one step away from bankruptcy!
What kind of monthly expenses do people in IT have that makes them perch so precariously? What kind of "meagre" savings would they have at this income level?

I mentioned most, not all. Let me explain in detail for you.

I'm not talking about employees who earn >50L. I'm talking about majority of people who earn less than 20L(between 7-20L), which is the median salary for most IT employees.

I was in the same situation up until 2015. But then fear of future made me start investing little and as pay increased, I made sure to save enough. But this is not the case with the many and one medical emergency, one personal issues away from taking loan or get money for interest which would put their life out of control. I have seen far too many people to write that statement.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by alpha1

What kind of monthly expenses do people in IT have that makes them perch so precariously?

Wants become needs. People live life thinking a good job market and x% hike are a given every year. Cars get bigger, holidays get further afield, phones get fancier, homes get bigger, loans get bigger.

If one could somehow 'freeze' their lifestyle while income continues to grow, one would be well-set. Those who have understood this will be in a good place. But most continue to fund the consumption economy, which is also necessary, I guess.

Speaking for myself, I don't think I'm a lavish spender- I save more of my income than I spend, mainly after watching too many colleagues get laid off in every single IT company I've worked at. But even I have seen my spending go up, mainly on unnecessary things.

[greyhound82]

Originally Posted by Samurai

But then, I couldn't put up with the idiosyncrasies of corporate life even in my 20s, I wouldn't have lasted long.

Same here. Running an industrial automation company for NDT(non-destructive testing). Didn't make a fortune 😊 but I love every moment. Learning, mentoring and building systems is what I love.
Off-topic: As of now, a new challenge is building a micron-level optical measurement system for semiconductor wafers.

We should have a dedicated thread for entrepreneurs to share their story