[drsingh]

Originally Posted by Samurai

I think that explains a lot. These obviously intelligent kids have no interest in their field of study. They are ripe candidates for either business school or large companies that just need smart looking graduates with good social skills.

I doubt you're going to find obviously intelligent kids.The obviously intelligent kids get placed in equity research! Or they go for IAS or MBA ,or apply for masters in a foreign university.

I guess the "kids know" the importance of padding resumes with extracurricular activities.My cousin used to get ridiculous certificates in his engineering college for "participation", "executive team-annual function" ( he was basically an unpaid security guard" , "national open inter college chess championship" ( between three local colleges)

Even before joining engineering colleges they are brainwashed "to score high in exams" to pad the resume for "MBA" or "IAS" .

You should add another cliche question to your repertoire for fun:

'Where do you see yourself after 5 years ?' or 3 if you prefer.

Even the erstwhile "elite state engineering colleges " are not equipped to teach modern engineering methods. They have been left behind in the race for placements by the newer private colleges.Have inadequate/unqualified staff. And no links to the industry.

I think if you want quality minds,you'll have to hit the campus- preferably first or second year students.Before their minds get corrupted.

[sagarpadaki]

Sharath, i can tell you that 80% of the so called FCD students( The term used for 70%+ in VTU) are like this. I finished my BTech in 2011 and i can tell you, most of my friends used to "mug up" C++ programs for lab exams! And they used to mock at me when i told them to understand the logic first!Problem is - teachers. There are very very few teachers who know what they are teaching. We had a teacher who used to take C language in 2nd sem and she did not know much about C.She did not know type-casting so obviously we students were not taught that.And when we went to ask her after reading the text book about some queries related to type-casting, the dismissed us off telling - "Google nalli search madri"(Meaning-search in google na?!). Heck, she did not even make an effort to make students understand. So what happened was, the students did not know the basics . But they had to pass the exams with decent marks,because, you know many companies don't entertain even if the student has one backlog. So, they start mugging up! And , none of the teachers handling the core Computer Science subjects in my entire 4 years of engineering knew completely what they are teaching! Its a really sorry state of affairs in the college i tell you.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by drsingh

I doubt you're going to find obviously intelligent kids.The obviously intelligent kids get placed in equity research! Or they go for IAS or MBA ,or apply for masters in a foreign university.

No, they are obviously intelligent, I could make out. But completely brain-washed by bad education system. Their learning ability has been impaired by lifelong mugging. Therefore, they are not capable of learning by curiosity anymore. I can't afford such trainees.

Originally Posted by drsingh

You should add another cliche question to your repertoire for fun:

'Where do you see yourself after 5 years ?' or 3 if you prefer.

These kids are usually prepared for cliche questions. I just avoid such questions.

Originally Posted by drsingh

I think if you want quality minds,you'll have to hit the campus- preferably first or second year students.Before their minds get corrupted.

How does that work? They can't start working until the whole course is done.

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

Problem is - teachers. There are very very few teachers who know what they are teaching.
.
.
And , none of the teachers handling the core Computer Science subjects in my entire 4 years of engineering knew completely what they are teaching! Its a really sorry state of affairs in the college i tell you.

Nothing has changed since the 80s, it was the same affair then. I learned mostly by my own initiative when in college. You may have read my old post here.

[drsingh]

Originally Posted by Samurai

No, they are obviously intelligent, I could make out. But completely brain-washed by bad education system. Their learning ability has been impaired by lifelong mugging. Therefore, they are not capable of learning by curiosity anymore. I can't afford such trainees.

These kids are usually prepared for cliche questions. I just avoid such questions.

How does that work? They can't start working until the whole course is done.

There is a guy in Chandigarh tricity who takes programming classes for college students in the tricity.hooks them in the second year during the 2 month training. Then in the third year during the 6 month training period. Also on weekends as its a 5 day week in engineering colleges.

Application development. Database software management. And proprietary solutions for small scale corporate environments. He also regularly flies to Bangalore /Pune for client visits.

He charges students handsomely for a practical hands on training experience they cant get in college.he also sort of runs a paid internship for those who work for him.

[pratyush6]

On this topic... Just a bit about the MBA I did.

I had my interests in Finance (still do). We had a lecturer who dictated notes! All the class used to take the notes - I sat through 2 sessions with her and then was only present when she had her "surprise" tests. I did ask her, why are we supposed to note down the theory? She simply stated - Do this and you would clear this "difficult" subject.
I have met such teachers throughout my life and they have been consistent in hating me as I refused to take down the notes. On a side note that MBA was of absolutely no use.
I feel I know a lot better when I am doing my CFA now.

On the employability of Indian technical gradates: I have seen so many people with fake things on CV's that now I can almost go through a CV and tell you about the guy. People have no idea what is there on the CV.

On the recruiters in Organization: I work in the Analytics/Consulting scene so the one thing I notice about my current organization is they keep checking the technical things first rather than the business understanding of potential candidates. Example: If a position requires good understanding of SAS/SPSS/Excel interviewers would straightaway jump to these questions and ask nothing about business. I am the other way around. I believe if someone has worked 2-5 years in an Industry he "should" know what he is doing. If he has a decent attitude there is no problems in learning the tools (and the tools keep changing).
Some people might have a problem with this but I do what I feel is the best for a position and I stick to it.

[Arch-Angel]

Samurai sir, this by itself is an example enough of how our educational system is literally going to the dumpster. Gone are the days where real knowledge a.k.a practical knowledge was valued. I will let you know a small fact as i am a fresh grad myself(been working for 2 years now, but still, i am a fresh grad :P). Even in college, many students are there just for the degree. This explains why droves of aeronautical, ECE and mech students end up in IT companies rather than their respective core companies where the industries would benefit even a little. So in the end, we cannot sustain the balance of people in all other industries and therefore, India as a country, is surely having a hard time. One more disturbing thing is the social stigma associated with certain jobs. Ex: If i said i was a lineman or a sanitary worker, people would literally look down at me and most would not even respect me. Something definitely needs to change if things are to improve. I believe guys with decent scores are the best rather than most of these 90+ people who have no idea what they did or studied and even if they did, we know why they put their efforts. My advice would be, screw the system and do what you love, going behind money is useless. As far as i am concerned, I believe the biggest plus point i have is my curiosity and ability to learn. Put me anywhere, give me a little training and the rest is something i'll improve over time and deliver. Confidence in one's ability is key.

Sorry for the long post, but i can't help but brood over how things are these days...

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by Arch-Angel

I believe guys with decent scores are the best rather than most of these 90+ people who have no idea what they did or studied and even if they did, we know why they put their efforts.

My long experience in recruitment says the same. People who tried to understand the subject usually score around 60%, like I did.

The lead girl in this story went on to get 4th rank in Bangalore University.

Originally Posted by Arch-Angel

My advice would be, screw the system and do what you love, going behind money is useless. As far as i am concerned, I believe the biggest plus point i have is my curiosity and ability to learn.

I did the same. The initial years were full of struggle, but it pays off at the end.

[Arch-Angel]

I had to score marks just for the sake of it, but in the end i am just disgusted aplenty on what this system has done to me. I feel like i am just another muppet of a production line which churns out engineers... Also, i must say i like the quote in your signature, which has a lot of meaning to it. The only reason i have been surviving so far is that i am just going with the flow now, but when the time is right, i will do what it takes to do what i love. This is one of the reasons why i am talking a lot with people, just getting to know a little about them, what they do and how did they approach things when they were my age inspite of being slightly introverted.

OT: Have you returned from Japan?

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by Samurai

The sad part is I interviewed at least 4 such people. Brilliant academic scores, lots of extra-curricular activities, but no understanding of the course they just completed. For another very smart girl, I asked the following after getting frustrated with her lack of understanding any concept..

How much you score at the age of 16-18 decides what field you get into. So what you are seeing is expected. So if you score very well, it is expected you will take medicine or engineering.
From very childhood Indian children are bred like cattle to start producing milk at a certain age. Depending upon the score in tests, the best milk producing feed(education) is chosen.

I friend once remarked about the sorry state of affairs among poor people who have more children and then train thair children in jobs like tea making, washing utensils so that it brings money to the family.
I found it ironically comical. Most well to do families also do the same. Only difference is that instead of training their children to make tea at the age of 5, they train their children for 25 years so that they start producing income.
Aptitude, interest and likes and dislikes can all go out of the window. The role of education has been reduced to making money.
And we are already seeing the imapact. Its almost impossible to find people who can actually write code(not just use somebody elses APIs to assemble stuff). Finding a proper scientist to further technology is even more difficult.
All the system has created a service economy. Everybody is a server. Heck, to change a simple electrical plug people need to call an "electrician", and I am talking about people who studied engineering.
I know distinction scoring Electrical engineering graduates who were not aware that green wire in most appliances is for "Earth". Not kidding - Seriously!

[Arch-Angel]

Tanveer ji i can't help but agree. This is how it is in India right now, also, on a funnier note, my mother didn't want me to meddle with the electrical stuff in my home saying i am not qualified enough(4 years of EEE, believe you me ). This is how much trust a graduate gets. So i am not surprised to see every tom, dick and harry vying for software jobs.

Also, coding is a gift by itself. Not everyone can analyse what they need to do to get the output instead of heading out to google to get some code.

[ampere]

Few aspects :

- Teacher may not know how and what to teach. If he/she at least can point to students where to read the correct stuff, that itself should suffice more than 50%.
- At least the student does not need to unlearn before reading the correct stuff
- Sadly the teacher also does not know which are right text books to use. That in my opinion is the single biggest problem.
- Another very common notion : Foreign text books are very difficult to read.
- On the contrary they can much more lucid and easier. Leaving apart Indian Vs foreign, its just a question of which is a good book to read.
- If you have that and more importantly at the right point in time, a LOT of problems can be solved.

On exams :
- Who says one cant score in exams? I would like to go against the tide here.
- If on day one, when a topic is introduced in class, the student can go back read the right textbook to understand it there and then.
- And this happens without the fear of exam looming on his/her head.
- This way he/she can also understand the topic well.
- Now, in the exam he can also solve problems and score. And in fact can score better !
- Hence my point of reading the right book at the right time.
- I know of many cases, where it actually works. Because, I have witnessed systems where teachers were not good, but they knew, where to point students to.

Of course its not the effort to score in exam, but the effort put to get the right understanding that counts. This is as far as the process of being a student is concerned. The process of being trained to think is a different matter altogether. That I think a text book cannot resolve. Its more rooted into the system.

[Samurai]

Also, most of these FCDs in computer science and information science don't understand how web works.

Since most of their final year projects are web applications built on C# and ASP.Net, I used to think they know how web works. But soon I realised that they have never run their app outside of visual studio.

Me: So... how can somebody use your web application?
She: The user has to install visual studio and sql server on their PC before using our application. [this answer was given by most FCDs]
Me: Why can't I just use a web browser?
She: No, you can't.
Me: Why not? You could deploy the application on a web server.
She: Hmm... that is very advanced stuff. We could do it in the second phase of our project. [same answer by many FCDs]

Originally Posted by ampere

- Who says one cant score in exams? I would like to go against the tide here.
.
.
.
- Now, in the exam he can also solve problems and score. And in fact can score better !

Before swimming against the tide, consider this. If you solve the problem by your own methods, chances are you will get zero.

Read this: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shift...ml#post1621617

[Arch-Angel]

Sir, how can a final year guy not know how to deploy a web application on a server? This is just the heights of ignorance in my opinion. Install visual studio and sql server on every pc. Talk about why MS is as popular as it is now. lol. Anyway, i have nothing against those guys. I am sure it would have been "skipped" for self learning by competent staff. The guy who gave this answer had common sense but not the knowledge.

[KiloAlpha]

Talking about web applications, 80% of the prospective business analysts I interview (and I am talking about people with some experience in web based applications) do not know what information to gather in order to provide a tech team with requirements for building a newspaper website.

[ampere]

Originally Posted by Samurai

Before swimming against the tide, consider this. If you solve the problem by your own methods, chances are you will get zero.
Read this: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shift...ml#post1621617

Really sad state of VTU. At least where ever I studied people knew if they knew or if they knew not. So at least they attempted to see what the student had written. It was not that bad.