[JediKnight]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

I agree with the principle of what you are saying. My question was to his statement of earning in dollars and spending in rupees. That is a privilege afforded only to foreign hires who are temporarily working in India. BTW for comparison, Uber pays engineers about 65 lakhs in India, while they pay about 175k in the US. From my knowledge, it would difficult to spend 70k on renting for a single person in SF, assuming your tastes are not Bruneian. NYC, especially Manhattan, is a different kettle of fish unfortunately.

I meant working in a top US MNC in India and getting paid in INR. But wait till I explain the details.

1. The salary of senior technical folks in India is now ~40% of US salary nominally which people use to naively compare India and US salary. But they forget about the purchasing parity difference. So if a US guy is making 300,000 USD his Indian counter part would be making 300,000 * 40/100 = 120,000 USD. But now bring purchasing parity index into the equation. The India guy is actually making 120,000 * 3.5 = 4,20,000 USD equivalent.

2. There are some additional benefits that accrue in USD. For example my company gives 3000 USD for a patent filing irrespective of geography. 3000 USD may not be a big deal in US but is a big deal in India.

3. Restricted Stock Units (RSU) are in USD even if you are in India. Suppose the stock goes up by x%. For the US guys it goes up by x% but for Indian guy the benefit is actually x% * PPR. Same logic applies to company dividends.

4. INR keeps on deprecating against USD. Last year INR lost 10% to USD. When you sell your RSUs you can actually keep your money in USD in your brokerage account. This like an additional return which only the guys in India enjoy.

[androdev]

Originally Posted by JediKnight

I meant working in a top US MNC in India and getting paid in INR. But wait till I explain the details.

Excellent points. If you happen to be working in your hometown and your parents did OK (own a house), you are very likely to be without any big EMIs leaving all that cash as surplus. Even if you had to buy a house, you would be buying it very early in your career as buying a house in your hometown is a no brainer compared to all the hesitation and indefinitely putting off important purchases when you work abroad etc. My point is that if you have a top-tier job in your hometown, the effective income can exceed that of someone in a similar role in the US. However the ceiling is higher in the US and it's relatively easier to grow your career with more opportunities for larger number of people.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by JediKnight

1. The salary of senior technical folks in India is now ~40% of US salary nominally which people use to naively compare India and US salary. But they forget about the purchasing parity difference. So if a US guy is making 300,000 USD his Indian counter part would be making 300,000 * 40/100 = 120,000 USD. But now bring purchasing parity index into the equation. The India guy is actually making 120,000 * 3.5 = 4,20,000 USD equivalent.

4. INR keeps on deprecating against USD. Last year INR lost 10% to USD. When you sell your RSUs you can actually keep your money in USD in your brokerage account. This like an additional return which only the guys in India enjoy.

You are correct above. I was merely pointing out that the ultimate benefit is to still earn in USD but spend in INR - country heads, foreign hires deputed here, these folks often have that privilege. Also, the payscale for senior tech people is different from entry-level, which is the real incentive for people to migrate.

On 4, this depreciation also hits you when it comes to salary hikes if you use the above formula.

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by JediKnight

I meant working in a top US MNC in India and getting paid in INR. But wait till I explain the details.

1. The salary of senior technical folks in India is now ~40% of US salary nominally which people use to naively compare India and US salary. But they forget about the purchasing parity difference. So if a US guy is making 300,000 USD his Indian counter part would be making 300,000 * 40/100 = 120,000 USD. But now bring purchasing parity index into the equation. The India guy is actually making 120,000 * 3.5 = 4,20,000 USD equivalent.

I understand the theoretical part. Did you mean to use the USD300K as an example to explain or did you really mean senior technical folks are making USD300K in the USA and USD120K/~INR 1C in India?

Originally Posted by JediKnight

4. INR keeps on deprecating against USD. Last year INR lost 10% to USD. When you sell your RSUs you can actually keep your money in USD in your brokerage account. This like an additional return which only the guys in India enjoy.

What about inflation then? Doesn't inflation eat more from the Indian's INR cash pile compared to their American counterpart?

Originally Posted by v1p3r

You are correct above. I was merely pointing out that the ultimate benefit is to still earn in USD but spend in INR - country heads, foreign hires deputed here, these folks often have that privilege. Also, the payscale for senior tech people is different from entry-level, which is the real incentive for people to migrate.

The ultimate benefit is when a PIO usually working in the USA, was deputed to work in India for a short duration and got paid a harshness allowance as well. This caused some heavy heartburn for some of the local employees.

[JediKnight]

Originally Posted by kiku007

I understand the theoretical part. Did you mean to use the USD300K as an example to explain or did you really mean senior technical folks are making USD300K in the USA and USD120K/~INR 1C in India?

These number I have quoted are actually very representative of the actual numbers. Techs with 20+ years experience are easily ~1Cr+ (including stock) at the moment. I am talking about top US Product MNCs: Microsoft, Google, Nvidia et al.

Originally Posted by kiku007

What about inflation then? Doesn't inflation eat more from the Indian's INR cash pile compared to their American counterpart?

For the past some time the inflation was actually higher in US than India. And the INR was badly depreciating. Hence this strategy of holding dollars worked very well. In normal times when US inflation is much lower and the rupee depreciation is ~4% average, it is actually advantageous to move money in India and park it in risk free debit like money market funds which give much higher returns in India than in US. Also during normal times pay hikes in India tend to be more than in US in- line with the inflation.

[vishnurp99]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

I'm comparing it to India, where if a normal working-class, tax-paying citizen has the misfortune of crossing someone rich, powerful, or connected to the police or politics, the best case scenario is that they are denied justice and can whine about it on a forum. Most likely, they disappear.

Just wanted to share my very limited two cents here.

Hmm really!. I don't know why & from where you get this impression. My impression is that if you are a normal working-class tax-paying citizen in any part of India, you will have the formal system & the informal networks that will protect you in most cases. The formal system is the law & order machinery & the rule of law/media/local representatives and the informal networks refer to your circle of relatives/friends/work acquaintances. Your exposure & experience of India seems to be very limited & biased.

Now if you cross somebody really rich/powerful in the USA or India or Europe for that matter, the consequences will be quite similar unless you have the wherewithal to give it back in kind. Of course, if you are in US and living in an NYC or California or Austin, you have to be worried about the homeless or mentally ill or racist crowd who will probably have a gun with them. So be on the lookout for the not so powerful too that you don't even know. I really like Germany by the way in comparison to either the US,UK or the GCC from a quality of life & overall safety perspective and also it's proximity to India.

Obviously every country has it's pros & cons and best practices with respect to safety. Most desi expats live very careful & inoffensive lives focused on their personal well being & career growth. The first generation knows that they are guests there and are really thankful for the privilege. That approach works in any country - be it India, US or Europe.

Originally Posted by v1p3r

BTW for comparison, Uber pays engineers about 65 lakhs in India, while they pay about 175k in the US. From my knowledge, it would difficult to spend 70k on renting for a single person in SF, assuming your tastes are not Bruneian. NYC, especially Manhattan, is a different kettle of fish unfortunately.

Again I want to make a very limited point.
Once you consider the taxation in the USA the 175K gross doesn't look like a lot of money in most large cities of the US. Your standard of living will be much better with 65L gross in India.

If you working for an American headquartered company, obviously being in the headquarters will work better but you will need to be in the same city - not just the same country.

Finally I have never seen the general american to be so pessimistic in my memory. Practically every salaried individual that i know in the states is worried about his retirement, healthcare costs & prospects for their kids to own their house. The inflation & interest rate spikes have impacted the households like never before in recent memory. The income differential between .1% & the rest is at an all-time high. Housing in areas like Boston is extremely expensive when compared to the per-capita income of a college grad.

All said & done, it's not that different from what it is in India.

[SN88]

Originally Posted by benbsb29

I read the rest of your post and had nothing to add, as I have no personal experience with Canada. Then i read this, and couldn't hold back.

I concur with you completely. I have lived in Qatar for 8 years and traveled umpteen times to Dubai from there so I can surely tell!!

I haven't seen any other countries such as these two which mask the atrocities, unfairness and absolute disregard for everyone that is not their own. Heck when the blockade hit Qatar, the first thing they did was pass on the entire pressure to expats by lowering their salaries, even not paying for months, stopped paying businessmen their due's for the sub contracting they did and so on and so forth but shamelessly did not compromise on their monthly "sponsorship" fee they collect for being the free partners!!

Nothing they don't like to hear gets out and even if it does it does not bother them because they are pro's in denial!!

I also find it commendable how they have enslaved educated people into believing they are superior beings. I see Indian engineers, managers get so conscious in their presence and have a natural subdued stance. It is a complete bulldoze. It saddens me to see our own people lose their spines!!

[fuzzydealhunter]

After I watched a couple of those videos on "why everyone is leaving Canada" and now my youtube is full of other suggestions such as why everyone is leaving UK, dubai and other countries. Curious if other are seeing the same and wonder if thats such as hot topic for youtube creators? Clickbait due to such interests in the immigration as a topic?

[Imran.Syed]

Originally Posted by SN88

I concur with you completely. I have lived in Qatar for 8 years and traveled umpteen times to Dubai from there so I can surely tell!!

I haven't seen any other countries such as these two which mask the atrocities, unfairness and absolute disregard for everyone that is not their own.

Its not that people lose their spines, its the money they make which they think they would not be able to make anywhere else.
Somebody I know very personally left for the Gulf in the 80s, as a labourer. The atrocities he faced back then truly shocked me to my core. Even then, he did not come back till he retired because he would've faced hunger and poverty back home, and with the money he was able to make, he was able to buy the property he was renting in India, a huge accomplishment for him. Same applies for others I know that did the same but in villages and ended up owning a lot of land. This again would not have been likely had they stayed in India.

I grew up in GCC so I have generally the same attitude towards everybody but the locals expect me to be submissive and passive because they are so used to facing Indians who are that way. I don't get it. In contrast to this, the filipino expats are much harsher on the locals, I think because their embassies/consulates are very strong in protecting them. The likelihood of a filipino expat being berated by locals is far lower than an Indian expat sadly. Even Pakistanis are known to be direct and rather brash towards the locals.

What you describe about Qatar is common to this day in GCC. Your salary is not guaranteed to be paid on time or in full. But here is the thing, there is a work contract in place and a strong Ministry of Labour that enforces it.
From my experience in Saudi Arabia, If your salary is delayed or not paid according to contract in excess of three months, you can go to the Ministry of Labour's courts and/or ombudsman and fight it out there. The court will enforce an order that the company will immediately let you transfer your work sponsorship to a different employer or leave the country. My father did this, in 1990. It is far easier to do this today then it was back then. And nowadays I hear in the Saudi, MOL blocks the offending company's access to government services until the issue is resolved.

The order will also force the company to pay your dues, but that is not enforced stringently. The delays in payments and salaries is mostly in the construction sector though, because it relies on the Finance ministries disbursing payments which they stop in a crisis or when oil prices aren't that great.

There is a lot more stuff that does not get out though. It is not easy to live and work in the GCC, but the financial payoff is well worth the abuse for many people. And yes I used the word abuse, because that is what happens a lot in those countries but my family and so many people I know would not have left India if they could've accomplished their hopes and dreams in India... probably.
I am sure whenever somebody leaves GCC after a multi-year stint, they leave with quality assets built/bought back home at least.

As much as we dislike GCC, there is a strong reason it is the number one foreign remittance source to India and likely also Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia and the Philippines. That's like what? 1.5-2 billion people between all the countries I mentioned? Say just 2% of that rely on remittances.. And say half comes from the GCC region.. That's still like 10-25 million people relying on the GCC countries income.

[McLaren Rulez]

Originally Posted by SN88

I haven't seen any other countries such as these two which mask the atrocities, unfairness and absolute disregard for everyone that is not their own.

It will come back to bite them eventually. The long-term success of any immigration-friendly policy relies on treating the immigrants well and making the country a potential permanent home for its immigrants. As much as people crib about the US, it is by far the leader in achieving this.

Let the oil money run out and you'll see two possibilities in these countries: large scale societal changes in attitude or a quick and ungraceful fall back to camel herding.

[sandeepmohan]

Originally Posted by noopster

Again, this is strictly my experience but it's not that easy to get invited to a family dinner with a white/ Chinese/Malay family, as compared to an Indian one, regardless of sub-ethnicity. For working professionals, a lot of your colleagues although friendly will probably not engage with you after-hours and the situation is pretty stark in desi-heavy industries like IT. As someone rightly pointed out, it's much easier for the kids to assimilate, pick up the local accent etc.

My comments are specifically for New Zealand. We've been living here since April 2017.

It is true that getting a dinner invite is not as easy as how we do in India. Its a bit of a formal event or based on an invite. Thats just how things are and you need to adapt. Oddly, we've had one dinner invite from an Indian family in all the years we've been here. We've had more dinner invites from Kiwi families.

We've also become accustomed to hanging out with kiwi families. When we invite families over for lunch or dinner (Or if they invite us), its to a specific time. Kiwi families generally put their children to bed as early as 8pm. They come in at 5pm, we socialize, have dinner and they leave. The time to leave is not printed anywhere. Its understood. With this arrangement, the house or kitchen can be tidied up. The women of the house don't have to sit and wait till 12am and then start doing all the dishes, after everyone has left. My mother in law who made her first trip out of India was impressed by this.

As for engaging with colleagues, especially with the gorra clan, its different. You may, may not get an invite. What happens at my work place, especially on a Friday evening is we hang out at the local Tavern. You just walk in there, hang with a few colleagues, move from table to table, pay our own bills and say Goodbye. Simple, easy going evening. Heck nobody would care or have a mood swing if you did not say Goodbye. Its cool.

Life has been great for our son. In fact, I'd go to the extent of saying our close knit friends are parents whom we met at school. This is our social circle. We engage in school events too. Parents volunteer, participate if the school needs help during events. Had it not been for our sons school, life would be quite different. The school has become our family. We are Thankful for this.

[kiku007]

I have worked overseas in the UK and Belgium before working in Dubai for four months a decade ago. I was in awe looking at what they have achieved and at the same time I found it difficult to come to terms with how people/communities lived in silos/bubbles. It is what it is and there are a dozen reasons why it may appeal to some and may not appeal to others.

I asked ChatGPT, "What is the meaning of emigration?" and this is what the bot said,

Emigration refers to the act of leaving one's own country or region to settle permanently in another country...

With no pathway to permanent residency in the GCC countries, I don't know why we have to debate about how GCC > Canada in the "Emigrating to a Foreign Land" thread. They certainly are in some ways but may be have a separate thread if it helps.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by kiku007

Emigration refers to the act of leaving one's own country or region to settle permanently in another country...

With no pathway to permanent residency in the GCC countries, I don't know why we have to debate about how GCC > Canada in the "Emigrating to a Foreign Land" thread. They certainly are in some ways but may be have a separate thread if it helps.

+1

Very good point. Those who emigrate to the West, which includes Australia and NZ go there effectively for good. Today with telecommunication being cheap & easy at least visual & aural contact is frequent but a generation back but for the monthly handwritten letter gone meant gone. And while my generation which migrated almost never came back they also lost the ability to ever come back due to losing the socio-cultural skills needed to live and thrive in India.

In favour of the current generation of Indians who migrate to the West I'd say by and large they are less hostile towards India and less in awe of the West i.e. they are more grounded, more realistic and less condescending than my generation. I can see the stark difference in attitudes of my first cousins who went away in say 1970 and my nephews/nieces who went in say 2015.

As@kiku007 writes, those who move to the GCC region do so purely for economic reasons with the intention {or lack of options} to return to the motherland. Or in a few cases use it as a pad to move to the West.

It is likely as India's standard of living, for those in the 20th to 2nd percentile gets to even half way point of the West * there is a very good chance of a new genre of Indian emigres emerging who are comfortable straddling the India-West bridge both professionally and personally. This is not unsimilar to what we see between the UK {mother country} and its Commonwealth partners Australia, NZ and Canada. I would not be surprised if in the next generation and a half this happens for India and Indian emigres.

I am no friend of emigration as readers of this thread may know. But in favour of the Anglo-Saxon West I'll say this, those societies are far more accommodating of Asian/African emigrants than we Indians would ever be if Africans started flooding our shores! Our innate racism would come pouring forth like a waterfall. Frankly when I read of politicians in USA or UK, France talk against emigrants pouring across the border I can empathize with them from a political point of view albeit not from a humanitarian viewpoint.

* I'm ignoring the top 2% who are close or better than the Western per capita even in nominal $ terms in any case.

[benbsb29]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

In favour of the current generation of Indians who migrate to the West I'd say by and large they are less hostile towards India and less in awe of the West i.e. they are more grounded, more realistic and less condescending than my generation. I can see the stark difference in attitudes of my first cousins who went away in say 1970 and my nephews/nieces who went in say 2015.

I agree 100%. In some ways, I feel the need to surrender one's Indian passport and renounce citizenship goes a long way in alienating an Indian citizen who moves to a different country - for whatever reasons.

While many countries including Sri Lanka are comfortable with the concept of dual citizenship, I don't understand why India has a differing stance on this.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by benbsb29

I agree 100%. In some ways, I feel the need to surrender one's Indian passport and renounce citizenship goes a long way in alienating an Indian citizen who moves to a different country - for whatever reasons.

+1

While many countries including Sri Lanka are comfortable with the concept of dual citizenship, I don't understand why India has a differing stance on this.

I believe it is a process of natural evolution of our political-administrative mind set. I hope it comes through in the next ten years as we grow less insular.