[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by AZT

DXB or SG if you have no interest in getting the passport

This bit is not entirely true. I don’t know about Dubai, but here getting a passport is a pretty straightforward process. Yes, now the process is stricter (for both PR and citizenship), and could easily takes 1-2 years+ for approval/rejection.

[Nissan1180]

Originally Posted by vb-san

This bit is not entirely true. I don’t know about Dubai, but here getting a passport is a pretty straightforward process. Yes, now the process is stricter (for both PR and citizenship), and could easily takes 1-2 years+ for approval/rejection.

The challenge in SG is the racial quota which makes it almost impossible to become a PR if you are an Indian and go to SG on an employment pass. There are exceptions but that’s the general opinion of many whom I have spoken to. In other countries, postgraduate education usually opens opportunities. In SG, it is a huge struggle to even get an employment pass no matter what you study. The common feedback is that someone from Malaysia or even China is much better placed to get a PR than an Indian, even though the latter may make more contributions to the economy.

The easiest way to get a PR is to invest the $2.5 M that the government requires to give foreigners a PR. That’s a sum most of us won’t earn in a lifetime, hence it is challenging to think of a long term settlement plan in SG. In fact, drawing room discussions in Indian E Pass holder homes are often focused on visa issues and the difficulty of getting a PR.

[GTO]

Mod Note: Just a quick reminder of our rules please. Absolutely no discussion on politics or politicians. Thanks for the support & understanding

[carthick1000]

Originally Posted by kushagra452

The question in my mind is whether it is worth landing in Canada now. Additionally, reading about the high cost of living, initial struggle and other immigration related issues are making me question, planning a move to Canada.

A very good friend of mine (in his mid 30s) moved to Canada in the middle of COVID-19 wave in late 2020. He cannot immediately bring the family but took few months due to various administrative things. But he managed to do well, thanks to his role as a commercial manager at an American conglomerate, he was able to save up the last 2-3 years, bring some savings from India and he bought 2 houses already, one where he lives and the other one he rents out. But he has to adjust a lot to live in the new country and had some struggles bringing his family over. Now he is very content and his long term plan was to move to US and that is the first reason he went to Canada.

The reason I am giving this example is how good a remuneration package you land in and at what mindset you arrive in Canada to make a living all matters. And it is very unique to each person, as personality types differ and their openness/willingness to embrace new culture and environment alongwith the go get attitude takes you places. So it is what you want matters and not what you see/read on forums or news articles. Androdev rightly pointed out that not every one shares their struggles/hardships as openly as their successes.

So would suggest keeping an open mind and do what you think fits your personal situation.

[vibbs]

Originally Posted by vb-san

This bit is not entirely true. I don’t know about Dubai, but here getting a passport is a pretty straightforward process. Yes, now the process is stricter (for both PR and citizenship), and could easily takes 1-2 years+ for approval/rejection.

I think he is aluding to the fact that it is extremely difficult to get a citizenship in SG.

Originally Posted by Nissan1180

The challenge in SG is the racial quota which makes it almost impossible to become a PR if you are an Indian and go to SG on an employment pass. There are exceptions but that’s the general opinion of many whom I have spoken to. In other countries, postgraduate education usually opens opportunities. .

Yes there is this factor in SG. The government wants to maintain the same demographic mix. So that is the number one criteria then followed by contribution to the economy. This is nowhere to be found in black and white but can be read between the lines. The reason why it is easier for Chinese to get a PR or citizenship as compared to Indians is in my opinion down to the fact that ethnic Chinese consist of more than 70% of the population while ethnic Indians are less than 10%. If the number of applicants from India and China are similar (I have no data to prove this) then a Chinese is 7 times more likely to get a PR than Indian just to maintain the same demographic mix.

There was a crunch in giving out Employment passes during COVID but I feel that has eased a bit now. Even then there is a significant concentration of Indians in certain industries.

[Imran.Syed]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Wow! I will respectfully disagree. Some of the other members have already countered this. Besides, economic reasons are one of the reasons and not the only ones. I have no personal experiences but from what I have heard, not all people from different religions are treated equally in Gulf, at least not the same way as in Canada irrespective of religion.

Please note that I have made the list strictly based on economic reasons. Earning more money is a classic and major reason for immigration, and GCC immigration is to this day on the list of top destinations. It is definitely a place to be able to make and save money.
There are many people from different walk of faiths working and enjoying life in Qatar, Bahrain and UAE. I dont want to comment on this further.

There's a reduction, but authorities will need to do better. Most of these are sold overseas so exports can be checked. Am sure, things will improve given how the technology is improving. I haven't heard of any Tesla getting stolen from home or parking. Some of the older technologies are prone to theft.

There is no reduction yet and really hurts people. Another case happened in my office today. However the targets are high end, flashy and latest cars which most new immigrants don't really go for.. in that way I feel we are somewhat safe.

I don't know what's the number of such thefts vs the cars on the road in Canada, must be a tiny 0.0_ % in my opinion.

It will always remain a tiny percentage. Cars sold every day vs. cars stolen cannot be the same, can it?

The issue is when a lot of people are going to work or stay in a smaller area. The housing problem or the price increase that you see is mostly in GTA or Vancouver. There's hardly an increase in some of the other cities I have experienced like Edmonton or Calgary. You can still buy a very good detached house in Edmonton at 500K.

Alberta managed their housing much better than the rest of Canada, that is a fact. But if it was so easy to live in Calgary/Edmonton/Saskatchewan, people would've moved much sooner. The reason GTA/GVA/ON/BC thrive is because all the big businesses of the country are here and the most amount of/or at least the most popular Colleges and Universities as well.
Maybe you should go and check the rents in the Calgary, post the Alberta is calling promotion. No doubt it is cheaper, but the gap is closing fast because of the sheer amount of people coming in.
But I still begrudgingly agree with you, crying about high cost of living in ON/BC isn't going to make it lower, practically I will just have to move there.

You can well imagine the situation of other cheaper ones.

Prices have increased but a flat costing 2cr did not become 4cr in a span of two years, this is my personal rough example. And India has way more housing in metro cities compared to Canada, so there is also that. Here people line up for a rental property especially if it is rent controlled.
It makes more sense to rent in India than in Canada.

I think your core problem is something different.

What makes you think that others, including people in GTA, paying 60-70% of their salaries only as rentals are all fools or have made peace with themselves realised their mistakes and committed themselves to the future? No, on the contrary, they all see something good, for themselves and the next generation. Yes, a lot of them were not privileged in their home countries in the first place and find whatever they get rewarding but even the ones who are well settled here, have moved and got blended. They surely have made some compromises but I haven't seen a lot moving back.

Yeah.. I have met people who "blended" in. The happiest ones are realtors, real estate owners, immigration consultants and lawyers and tradespeople. The kinda people who help a country do organic growth? MOST of them dream about moving to the US/EU/other countries where their work will be compensated properly either financially or non-financially.
Canada is going to be a victim of Brain Drain. It is already happening, you can watch videos and/or read about it. I am not even one of those highly skilled person but it is undeniable that those who are already settled here did it far easily (even though at that time it may have been the toughest too) than what can be achieved from here on.

I don't think a commoner in Canada needs to pay a pie for anything. On the contrary, it will be a problem if one tries. For the businesses or otherwise, I will have no comments as I have no experience and neither it matters to 99.9999% and more people.

You are paying with your taxes. It should matter to more people and Canada needs small businesses to generate more jobs.
Which does not work if people don't have enough disposable income.

There's a lot of peer pressure, especially in housing. Even people who have one house, have taken HELOC have spent the money elsewhere. Booking new homes or doing some investments. I will say this is mostly to earn more and expect similar rewards in the past. This may not be a good call for everyone especially ones making investments without knowledge. It's a debt trap and a lot of people have fallen into it.

Those who were able to struggle and continue to own their houses are now millionaires. Guy in my office makes the same pay I do, except he has an equity of over a million dollars, entirely through owning his house. BTW This guy is on the verge of retirement, so this is his peak income. Two people I know did this back in 2010s: one got a house and one invested an amount of money similar to the house's downpayment in a business. Small Business was very successful but in 2022, the house owner had more equity than the business owner.

What, in your opinion, will be the average salary of that Software person and what will be the salary for his wife in this video?

Given my limited knowledge, I assume they will be at least earning over 100K. Can they not save 50-100K to buy a new home for about 500-800K? Why do they need to look at Million dollars detached homes?

Problem number 1: making 100k is REALLY tough in Canada
Problem number 2: 50-100k in the beginning of 2022 was different than 2023. You might hear in the news that house prices have come down a bit, but the affordability is completely gone. The same 50-100k won't be able to get you a cheaper-than-2022 house now because interest rates went up so the qualifying rate/mortgage stress test went up too. So you need more money down. Okay, but did your wage go up? Nahhhhh, it did not, not enough to keep up.
Problem number 3: Why hasn't the bubble collapsed? Well.. the amortization went up. Used to be 20-30 year mortgages, now its 45 to even 65 in some cases. Please imagine paying off a small condo or a tiny 2 bedroom house for close to 50 years of your life.
The other reason the bubble hasn't collapsed: The monthly installment of mortgages remained the same but the interest share of the mortgage went up considerably. Can you see the drawback of this measure?
Problem 4: THE MAJOR PROBLEM: The restricted supply. Multiple bids are back. No inspection. Deals being made sight unseen. What does it matter if you get the bank to pay 40k extra now and increase your amortization by a few more years. People have believed that the housing will never be fixed. Students and immigrants will keep coming in, supporting the zombie housing market. The only way this bubble collapses is if the inflow slows down and/or jobs are lost unfortunately and people lose their shirts.. till then the bottom of the pyramid suffers.

You are talking about Doctors and how people die without care, Yes it's difficult to get dates for any specialised treatments but did you or the guy in the video mention the family clinic? Can you not simply walk into one and see a Doctor usually without waiting (with appointments) or in less than an hour without appointments in most places? I don't see any problems with most lab tests either.

No you cant. I walked into a clinic and waiting 3 hours to be attended to. 15 minutes after the walk-in start time, the clinic stopped accepted new patients. But this is a big city example.

And, No, usually no one will let you Die waiting for treatment. You are attended promptly if are in serious condition..

Has happened already. Its a triage and availability system. But not significant so far.

Usually, when someone is trying to help you, I will begin my reply with an apology for missing. This may be a generational thing but I won't say to someone "I got busy" and will instead begin " Sorry, I got busy". I also thought just like VN but as I mentioned, it's just a very personal thing.

Must be a generational thing.

Please tell me how is this different to any other big city in the world. What we have seen in the past Two Years is not going to continue forever.

It's not very different. That is what I am telling people. Canada used to be good, it can be good again but as it stands right now, it is terrible. Dont come in 2023. Maybe 2024 and 2025 once the interest rates start going down a little and inflation cools and/or wages catch up.

Yes but who decides this? I like to live closer to nature, a ravine lot with a creek or a water view, maybe on a hill but the question is can I afford it? Definitely not in Gurgaon and nor in any major city in GTA.
But look at this property, it's about 50 Kms from Toronto Pearson and was sold at around 10 CR. Can you show me anything similar around Banglore or Gurgaon or Mumbai or others in Gulf?

https://housesigma.com/web/en/house/...22762-40346826

How do you intend to pay and if it is a loan, how long are do you want to work and pay it off? India does not have the road infrastructure to make it a viable competitor. UAE does not have as many water views as Canada. Assume your office is in Downtown and you have to go 5 times a day, you will be miserable and kicking yourself for the living in St Caledon.

A lot of youngsters move for very different reasons now. My son is happy living independently, managing on a starting salary as any other normal engineer will get in Canada, paying over 30% in taxes and about 70% on house rental on the remainder as I always supported him while studying and have told him to continue as long he wants. But around 8 months into his job, he is looking at a smaller place, a little away from downtown as he doesn't want anything from me now. I feel proud of this. Buying a house is not something on his mind yet, though he can qualify for one.

I hope the odds are always in his favor.

Again, this will vary from person and the field. My BIL was a renowned Ortho physician here and with prior experience in UK, the whole family moved last year to Toronto. He cannot do any practice in Canada but goes to a hospital and work under a Doctor, to whom he is much more senior/ qualified and experienced. Even doing operations but all under fellowship earning a fraction of what the other guy earns. On the contrary, his wife currently has three jobs, she is an experienced teacher with PHD and earns about 3 times what her husband earns.

In the same field I have personally met foreign doctors driving Ubers. PhDs too. I cannot read and take someone making a fraction of what they can make or working three jobs as a positive thing. Sounds doable only for a short few years.

One of my knowns rents out his basements, mostly to newcomers going as far as picking them up from Airport, and giving cooked/ dry food and utensils for a few weeks until they get settled. So, you will find every type of person. He was helped similarly by a Gentleman 15 Years ago when he first landed.

Glad to report: Many such examples here, even in the DESI community.
OT: I do not wish the basement life even on my enemies. I know people move out asap to upper floors but some cant and I shudder when i think of their lifestyle. No other country IMO has a basement culture like the one in Canada.

Unless you have factored in buying a house for yourself, I don't think anything else has increased by twice. Food and eating out has increased but it's coming lower now. The clothes, I think are about the same.

I disagree. Please find research reports of prices and wages from 2019-2023.

Since you have been mentioning a lot about this, can you give us some ballpark figures and how you find things out of reach here and how you could have enjoyed the same things in the Gulf, which comes on top of your list? I will appreciate if you can present some actual figures.

Please go back a few posts and see that someone decided against moving to Canada with an income of 130k cad or something like that. Exceptional income here that. Most make 55-80k. Median household income after tax is 80k. 1bedroom rent inclusive of everything: 36k. Food for two: say 14k, transport and other costs: say another 15k.
Now you might see why the Russian guy in the youtube video is leaving.


APOLITICAL UPDATE: Media is no longer completely free in Canada. Never was completely free anyway apparently. Read more about bill C 11.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65420133

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

Please note that I have made the list strictly based on economic reasons.

Fair enough, others have replied well on this. When we talk generally, it's for all. So, as others have mentioned, we continue to differ.

Earning more money is a classic and major reason for immigration, and GCC immigration is to this day on the list of top destinations

Again, this is your personal view. Not everyone immigrates only for money. I have multiple knowns, managing businesses in India and living in Canada.

Cars sold every day vs. cars stolen cannot be the same, can it

I asked you a data and mentioned a 0,00_ % why don't you come up with the numbers of cars on the roads vs stolen and counter this?

Alberta managed their housing much better than the rest of Canada, that is a fact

Go through some of the older bubbles in Alberta around 2010 if my memory serves right. Edmonton/ Calgary was expensive/ similar over GTA at that time I think due to Oil.

reason GTA/GVA/ON/BC thrive is because all the big businesses of the country are here and the most amount of/or at least the most popular Colleges and Universities as well.

So, what's different with anywhere else? Do you think prices in Delhi and Aligarh can be the same?

Prices have increased but a flat costing 2cr did not become 4cr in a span of two years, this is my personal rough example.

Ask someone to check the prices of any society in Gurgaon- Golf course road/ extension and then update. I gave you examples of the most premium locations/ societies in Gurgaon. Others have increased equally. Of course, as with other areas/ countries, the rise may not be the same across cities/ localities.

Currently, Mississauga/ Brampton/ Milton tops with the lowest value for money whereas some of the burbs are low.

It makes more sense to rent in India than in Canada.

Yes, because interests are very high and prices have gone up artificially.Owners who have bought the property at cheaper rates can afford to rent lower. In fact, it's also ok to rent in Canada too, if we consider present interest rates.

happiest ones are realtors, real estate owners, immigration consultants and lawyers and tradespeople.

Realtors are such a con and now the market going into multiple offers, they are making the most. I was looking for a house for my family, the realtor will simply send an automated Email from the realtor portal with listings every day (must be automated. Despite my telling our priorities, the efforts were minimal or missing. And they expect to keep a full 2,5% commission. On a million-dollar property (which is essentially a detached or townhouse) that's 25K CAD for what- some showings and that's about. And usually detached are the ones they are keener to push, which gets them easy 35-50K on a single transaction. About the same or a little lower for the listing agent depending on what is included (Openhouse/Staging/advertisement etc)

Tradespeople are hard workers so I won't have any grudges.

Canada is going to be a victim of Brain Drain.

Again, the numbers will be very small. And many will be coming back at some point in time. But, I don't think it will matter to most immigrants. If their children are exceptional or they don't like they can move anywhere in the world. So, I don't see this as a problem. If you imply, there will not be enough people for high-quality jobs, I don't see this happening in the near future as a lot of immigrants will continue to fill those positions.

You are paying with your taxes.

I pay here too and so does everyone pay in most countries except probably Gulf. But medical benefits are not available in most countries. Don't know if medical is free in Golf with zero income tax or if one pays or how expensive is it.

It should matter to more people and Canada needs small businesses to generate more jobs.

Yes and already happening. I know multiple people who went to Canada 10-15 Years ago, even taking utensils with them, starting from nothing, and employing multiple people currently. In fact, the most successful will be the one who can build a small business.

Those who were able to struggle and continue to own their houses are now millionaires. Guy in my office makes the same pay I do, except he has an equity of over a million dollars, entirely through owning his house. the house owner had more equity than the business owner.

This has happened across the world and we don't need to envy them, rather feel happy for our knowns. If you or others think that the house he got at 300 K, 20 years ago is now 2 Million and will be 15 Million after another 20 Years, it will be a fantasy unless CAD trades at 10 cents to a USD

Problem number 1: making 100k is REALLY tough in Canada

Okay, but did your wage go up? Nahhhhh, it did not, not enough to keep up

Absolutely not. In GTA, it's easy. My wife who used to do some work 5-6 years ago in Calgary will get $ 30 CAD per hour many years ago and gets over $ 80 CAD per hour currently. She teaches in Toronto. Now, we can say teachers are earning good due to so many students coming in but in every trade, there are some possibilities.

Problem number 3: Why hasn't the bubble collapsed?

Greed, genuine requirements, high rental, easy credit availability, lower interest rate hopes Plus Realtors!

Please imagine paying off a small condo or a tiny 2 bedroom house for close to 50 years of your life

.

Will like to see some comparison between a property that you are/ were considering in GTA and something similar in Gulf.

The other reason the bubble hasn't collapsed: The monthly installment of mortgages remained the same but the interest share of the mortgage went up considerably. Can you see the drawback of this measure?

Some banks have increased tenure whereas some have changed the EMI. Similar in India also. Besides, a lot of people would have bought at 3 or 5-year fixed. We should see the pain coming around next year if the interest rates remain similar.

The current increase is due to lower inventories, and exceptionally high sales pitches by realtors on how things will increase if you don't buy. The truth is most of these guys would have defaulted on their own mortgages if the lull had continued a little longer.

Problem 4: THE MAJOR PROBLEM: The restricted supply. Multiple bids are back. No inspection. Deals being made sight unseen. What does it matter if you get the bank to pay 40k extra now and increase your amortization by a few more years.

Three of the properties where my realtor asked me to go 20-25% higher in the past month were eventually sold at list or 10% higher. So, realtors in part are responsible for creating this. They create this fear of losing the house.

I have withdrawn from the market and will be staying on rental. My wife's sister got a large house recently, so understandably, she was a little upset with me how I don't save or all that but it's ok. One does not need a house as an investment.

I walked into a clinic and waiting 3 hours to be attended to. 15 minutes after the walk-in start time, the clinic stopped accepted new patients. But this is a big city example.

It's not usual, for sure. Have a family doctor and call them before and fix an appointment, you won't have to wait beyond a reasonable time.

Assume your office is in Downtown and you have to go 5 times a day, you will be miserable and kicking yourself for the living in St Caledon.

5 times for what? I will look at some areas in Etobicoke, closer to TLC or if it has to be far then somewhere I can get the go-train.

In the same field I have personally met foreign doctors driving Ubers. PhDs too. I cannot read and take someone making a fraction of what they can make or working three jobs as a positive thing. Sounds doable only for a short few years.

Yeah, but if your kid goes to University and he has to pay lower fees and his wife can earn more, he will make peace. BTW, my BIL that I referred who is a qualified Doctor is also trying to go into teaching medical students. I think it's doable after clearing certain papers. He also writes somewhere and from the fellowship and some other incomes, is very happy. He doesn't drive a Uber though.

Most make 55-80k. Median household income after tax is 80k. 1bedroom rent inclusive of everything: 36k.

No, my wife rents a townhome, with 3 Bedrooms and pays 3K. Am sure, there will be cheaper options too. Electricity is very cheap, less than 100 CAD a month. The same house will cost over a Million to buy. I find renting cheaper besides, we can move anytime.

Food for two: say 14k, transport and other costs: say another 15k.

Fair numbers. If the rental can be managed for around 2500 a month, it will be Ok for a household salary of 70-80K, but usually, GTA households will be a little higher.

Since you seem to have Gulf experience, I will be keen to know how all this compares with some of the Gulf countries or even other places like Singapore/ Australia.

[Imran.Syed]

Again, this is your personal view. Not everyone immigrates only for money. I have multiple knowns, managing businesses in India and living in Canada.

I never said everyone did. People ask me often if not Canada then where? I mostly answer we dont know what the western world is heading towards but times look bleak right now for the foreseeable future. Make as much as money as you for the next 2-3 years and the migrate to wherever you want (mostly Canada in the case of my circle)
Canada wants to double its population. Some want 100mil people by 2100, so immigration will very likely not stop, even if conservatives are in power for a long time because they are the ones who brought the express entry system.
Again, this does not apply to IT people and other highly skilled and/or qualified people. They can do good no matter where they are. I am talking about the white collar mango people, who make enough to survive comfortably.

I asked you a data and mentioned a 0,00_ % why don't you come up with the numbers of cars on the roads vs stolen and counter this?

My office has close to 300 people who work there. From them, 2 have had their car stolen and multiple others who they know have had their cars stolen. I dont have any numbers.
Here is a news article though:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...2022-1.6684532
"Jump of nearly 50% since from previous year"

I am ending this here. If you don't want to accept car thefts have skyrocketed, buy a brand new car with your hard earned money and park it in your personal driveway. If you feel your car is safe then who am I to disturb your peace.

So, what's different with anywhere else? Do you think prices in Delhi and Aligarh can be the same?

Absolutely not. But.. Why did price for the same house double from almost 260k to 500k from 2019 to 2022 in Aligarh-esque Sudbury?? Did Sudbury get a new factory, a new industry or anything at all? nope. Prices in Greater Sudbury and Calgary are the same almost. This is the classic case of a bubble.

Yes, because interests are very high and prices have gone up artificially.Owners who have bought the property at cheaper rates can afford to rent lower. In fact, it's also ok to rent in Canada too, if we consider present interest rates.

Read (i think) androdev's post. People used to rent happily and not just to be prudent financially. Now even they are bickering about the rent.

Again, the numbers will be very small. And many will be coming back at some point in time. But, I don't think it will matter to most immigrants. If their children are exceptional or they don't like they can move anywhere in the world. So, I don't see this as a problem. If you imply, there will not be enough people for high-quality jobs, I don't see this happening in the near future as a lot of immigrants will continue to fill those positions.

In this thread itself people are talking about either their personal or close relatives/friends' experiences of returning or not going to Canada and I can remember at least one other post where someone mentioned their friend is going to be moving back to India soon. I have countless examples who are going to be moving to the US or Gulf soon and they are doing very well in Canada relatively. UAE is more likely than US because high quality of life (for the right salary) and good schools, hospitals, all accessible along with savings and proximity to india without constant threat of gun violence and ultra-nationalist stuff.

Here is what I predict will happen if things go on like this:
Canada will have all the problems of a developing and a developed country without any of the benefits of either.
High quality employees want a higher pay and/or high quality of life which Canada won't give them so either hire a subpar quality employee or pay more. Both instances are bad for future of any company. Result? Brain drain.

I also predict they will try to do full global taxation (already present in some form) on its citizens and increase the time it takes to acquire the citizenship (used to take 4 years, now 3) amongst other unfavorable measures. And increase taxes.
This year already there was a carbon tax that came in.

I pay here too and so does everyone pay in most countries except probably Gulf. But medical benefits are not available in most countries. Don't know if medical is free in Golf with zero income tax or if one pays or how expensive is it.

Medical insurance is provided to every employee by their sponsors/companies at no cost to employee, making major and most treatments extremely cheap and medicines are covered too, again makes them very cheap. Quality of Doctors can be a little iffy though sometimes but its a million times better than Canadian healthcare system in its current state.

Yes and already happening. I know multiple people who went to Canada 10-15 Years ago, even taking utensils with them, starting from nothing, and employing multiple people currently. In fact, the most successful will be the one who can build a small business.

Please share some business ideas, might help someone!

This has happened across the world and we don't need to envy them, rather feel happy for our knowns. If you or others think that the house he got at 300 K, 20 years ago is now 2 Million and will be 15 Million after another 20 Years, it will be a fantasy unless CAD trades at 10 cents to a USD

I don't envy them! It's my coworkers main residence, not an investment property. I am happy for him that he will finally get to do what he wanted to do post retirement. He got it for 90k 20 years ago though.
I don't want a Chin-ada please.

Absolutely not. In GTA, it's easy. My wife who used to do some work 5-6 years ago in Calgary will get $ 30 CAD per hour many years ago and gets over $ 80 CAD per hour currently. She teaches in Toronto. Now, we can say teachers are earning good due to so many students coming in but in every trade, there are some possibilities.

Yes sure there are. Happy for your wife but I wonder how a newcomer on $30 cad can survive in today's expenses. I don't wonder actually, I am doing it and I know.

Will like to see some comparison between a property that you are/ were considering in GTA and something similar in Gulf.

Find median incomes of various and compare to median house prices.

All I can say is Gulf is more affordable compared to Canada even today at least when it comes to housing.

Some banks have increased tenure whereas some have changed the EMI. Similar in India also. Besides, a lot of people would have bought at 3 or 5-year fixed. We should see the pain coming around next year if the interest rates remain similar.

Majority folks got variable in 2021-22 because realtors were peddling the dreams of rates staying low forever. Wait I think the governments and central banks were singing the same tune. "Transitory" inflation.

The current increase is due to lower inventories, and exceptionally high sales pitches by realtors on how things will increase if you don't buy. The truth is most of these guys would have defaulted on their own mortgages if the lull had continued a little longer.

Three of the properties where my realtor asked me to go 20-25% higher in the past month were eventually sold at list or 10% higher. So, realtors in part are responsible for creating this. They create this fear of losing the house.

We agree on something after all.

One does not need a house as an investment.

Buying an investment house is easier than buying the first house in this country. Go figure.

5 times for what? I will look at some areas in Etobicoke, closer to TLC or if it has to be far then somewhere I can get the go-train.

And pay close to downtown prices for rent/purchase while also commute to and fro.

Yeah, but if your kid goes to University and he has to pay lower fees and his wife can earn more, he will make peace. BTW, my BIL that I referred who is a qualified Doctor is also trying to go into teaching medical students. I think it's doable after clearing certain papers. He also writes somewhere and from the fellowship and some other incomes, is very happy. He doesn't drive a Uber though.

The biggest benefit of Canada, the education costs. Even the Americans envy Canadians for this.
Your BIL is doing everything he can, I respect that. But he is still not a Doctor in this country, and thats a crying shame. He sounds very talented and the country would have been lucky to have him practicing!
Alas, many talented doctors here doing all sorts of stuff to get by.

Fair numbers. If the rental can be managed for around 2500 a month, it will be Ok for a household salary of 70-80K, but usually, GTA households will be a little higher.

Household income of 70-80k is difficult to reach, higher is even more difficult. Add to that the looming recession, god save us all.

Since you seem to have Gulf experience, I will be keen to know how all this compares with some of the Gulf countries or even other places like Singapore/ Australia.

Singapore/Australia will be on par with Canada I believe. In my list these are higher because of the Weather mostly because I feel COL is more or less the same if not higher. But weather makes a big difference and I used to say otherwise up until the spring hit.
Gulf is gulf. Pros and cons are many, but at least it does not pretend (too much) to be something its not unlike Canada here.

Oh that reminds me, some CUAET Ukrainian refugees cant wait to leave either apparently.

[benbsb29]

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

Gulf is gulf. Pros and cons are many, but at least it does not pretend (too much) to be something its not unlike Canada here.

I read the rest of your post and had nothing to add, as I have no personal experience with Canada. Then i read this, and couldn't hold back.

The Gulf countries are the masters of deception, anyone who exposes the ills get snubbed and brushed under the carpet. If you say Canada is a Ponzi scheme based on the housing scenario, then the Gulf countries perfected this with their fake extravaganza and luxuries thanks to the struggles and toils of people from the subcontinent. The amount of blood and tears shed to build this mirage of deception has no limits.

For all the applauds that are given to Qatar, read up on how foreign workers (from the poorer nations, ofcourse) were abused and even give up their lives to complete all those stadiums and infrastructure to prepare for the Qatar World Cup.

If you choose to ignore these, I suppose we can conclude you've made up your mind to do so, and I personally have no more to add.

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

Gulf is gulf. Pros and cons are many, but at least it does not pretend (too much) to be something it's not unlike Canada here.

I now fully understand where you are coming from

No car thefts, good medical- sponsored by your employers, No Income Tax, low rentals, low property prices, nice sunny weather, fresh and clean air/ water and still, you got stuck up in a miserable, cold country-like Canada.

My sympathies and hope you can move out of Canada ASAP. I am 100% with your decision.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by Nissan1180

The challenge in SG is the racial quota which makes it almost impossible to become a PR if you are an Indian and go to SG on an employment pass. There are exceptions but that’s the general opinion of many whom I have spoken to. In other countries, postgraduate education usually opens opportunities. In SG, it is a huge struggle to even get an employment pass no matter what you study. The common feedback is that someone from Malaysia or even China is much better placed to get a PR than an Indian, even though the latter may make more contributions to the economy.

Originally Posted by vibbs

I think he is alluding to the fact that it is extremely difficult to get a citizenship in SG.
…
Even then there is a significant concentration of Indians in certain industries.

Yes, the quota bit is strictly managed, and PR applications have a super long waiting period now. When I applied for PR, it took only 3 weeks to get through, but couple of years later it took 3 months for my wife and daughter. And the duration just got longer and longer over the years. My German colleague’s PR application got rejected recently, and same happened with a Finnish friend a few months back. Meanwhile another Malayali ex-colleague and family got their citizenship approved (took two years for approval). I guess with the lure for US diminishing and HK being a bit volatile, the no. of applications are much higher than what it used to be 10 years back. That also could be the reason for the delays, rejections.

Employment pass salary ceiling has gone up, but if the criteria is met, it’s not a struggle to get approval.

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

Gulf is gulf. Pros and cons are many, but at least it does not pretend (too much) to be something its not unlike Canada here.

In my earlier post I mentioned about a friend who moved from Singapore to Canada (Vancouver) last year. Before moving to Singapore, she lived in Dubai for 10 years. She used to say that the sense of freedom she had in Singapore (and now in Canada) is unmatched when compared to Dubai. According to her, when it comes to personal freedom Dubai (beneath the shiny surface) was not that different from her home country (Kyrgyzstan) in the immediate post-Soviet era. So personal experiences do vary from person to person.

Almost everyone from the previous generation of my family have lived and worked in the middle east (typical for a Kerala household), but I see the current generation is mostly looking at Australia, Canada, or Europe as the possible option to move. With earlier generation it was all about money and foreign remittance, but nowadays its more on living standards, quality of life, stability etc.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

Medical insurance is provided to every employee by their sponsors/companies at no cost to employee, making major and most treatments extremely cheap and medicines are covered too, again makes them very cheap. Quality of Doctors can be a little iffy though sometimes but its a million times better than Canadian healthcare system in its current state.

Hey there again Buddy,

Just a quick note on the medical insurance. While it is mandatory that the company has to provide Medical insurance, the actual quality of insurance vary wildly. In the UAE, most low-skilled workers and even higher-skilled ones in particularly stingy companies (of which there are many) provide the lowest tier of insurance. In this lowest tier, any medical costs upto $700 have to be paid out of pocket before the insurance kicks in (when the salary of low-skilled workers between $280 to $550 per month). Meanwhile in Saudi, the lowest tier only covers the so called poly-clinics upto around $1000 and any expenses above that have to be paid out of pocket (so good luck if you can't afford a surgery). Bahrain is an exception with government provided healthcare but that's likely to change. As I said earlier, its only good if you are privileged like us & even then you've already commented on the quality of healthcare.

Gulf is gulf. Pros and cons are many, but at least it does not pretend (too much) to be something its not unlike Canada here.

I do feel like you are coming from a place with a strong sense of nostalgia, likely because you spend your entire childhood in the Gulf like I had. But the Gulf from our childhood has changed. It doesn't show from all the glitz and the carefully managed news, but the Gulf is poorer & a less welcoming place from when we were younger though with better labour rights. The economic growth seen in the Gulf in the past 1 years is primarily from high oil prices (in Saudi) and influx of Russian capital (in UAE) but anecdotally, every industry is down, booming souks & marketplaces don't have the crowds from pre-COVID, admissions in schools where admissions were hyper-competitive are down-sizing or some even shutting down. I don't know how long its been since you left the Gulf but you won't be coming back to the same place. The Gulf will probably never be the place it was during our childhood again except maybe Dubai which has a knack for rejuvenation!

Originally Posted by Turbanator

I now fully understand where you are coming from

No car thefts, good medical- sponsored by your employers, No Income Tax, low rentals, low property prices, nice sunny weather, fresh and clean air/ water and still, you got stuck up in a miserable, cold country-like Canada.

My sympathies and hope you can move out of Canada ASAP. I am 100% with your decision.

1) Medical insurance - I've commented on the same above.

2) Low rentals - not if you live in Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait or Bahrain. Utilities are also quite expensive now.

3) Low property prices - Again hard to own property in many of the countries except in designated areas and where you can own like Dubai, its a forever bubble that's going to burst worse than anywhere in the West as in 2008.

4) Nice sunny weather - Extremely harsh summers. Atleast in winters, you can wear extra layers, what exactly can do in summers?

5) Fresh clean air - No, most Gulf cities are quite polluted thanks to the American V8s that everyone wants! Cleaner than India certainly though.

6) Clean water - in Northern Europe, people drink water directly from the tap. In the Gulf, people either buy 20 litre mineral water bottles or fix a filter at home. You get the idea!

Originally Posted by vb-san

In my earlier post I mentioned about a friend who moved from Singapore to Canada (Vancouver) last year. Before moving to Singapore, she lived in Dubai for 10 years. She used to say that the sense of freedom she had in Singapore (and now in Canada) is unmatched when compared to Dubai. According to her, when it comes to personal freedom Dubai (beneath the shiny surface) was not that different from her home country (Kyrgyzstan) in the immediate post-Soviet era. So personal experiences do vary from person to person.

Almost everyone from the previous generation of my family have lived and worked in the middle east (typical for a Kerala household), but I see the current generation is mostly looking at Australia, Canada, or Europe as the possible option to move. With earlier generation it was all about money and foreign remittance, but nowadays its more on living standards, quality of life, stability etc.

Offcourse, there is less personal freedom. These are police states! Whatsapp calling & other voip calls are banned in every country except Bahrain and Kuwait. You can use a VPN but even these are blocked in the UAE for example, so you need to buy an expensive paid VPN with hundreds of servers and try changing server everytime they block one or convince your friends abroad to use Botim - the government approved voip that can be easily monitored or pay loads of money making ISD calls so that state-owned Etisalat and Du can make more money off you.

Coming to economic freedom, most contracts are binding till the end, there is no notice period unless explicitly stated which most won't. Say you got into a house rental contract for 1 year & got a broadband connection for 1 year. If you lose your job after 3 months, offcourse you can't stay for long since your visa will be cancelled, but you've to pay up the remaining 9 months of rent and broadband in full before they release you from the contract. Else, they can drag you to court and prevent you from leaving the country. Everything here is designed to extract the most money out of you without having you pay income taxes!

And yes, no one from the current generation wants to move to the Gulf except in rare cases where the job in really enticing (like mine).

[Imran.Syed]

Originally Posted by benbsb29

If you choose to ignore these, I suppose we can conclude you've made up your mind to do so, and I personally have no more to add.

Please refer to my quoted post in the end.
More About GCC in reply to dragracer’s post.

Originally Posted by vb-san

Almost everyone from the previous generation of my family have lived and worked in the middle east (typical for a Kerala household), but I see the current generation is mostly looking at Australia, Canada, or Europe as the possible option to move. With earlier generation it was all about money and foreign remittance, but nowadays its more on living standards, quality of life, stability etc.

Agreed except the promise of living standards, quality of life, etc., is a mirage nowadays like I have explained before. Not too long ago, a couple could’ve managed rent for a basement apartment and food easily just on a single minimum wage job, that is impossible now anywhere in Canada except maybe Alberta. But this depends on the skills and the employability of a person.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Just a quick note on the medical insurance. While it is mandatory that the company has to provide Medical insurance, the actual quality of insurance vary wildly. In the UAE, most low-skilled workers and even higher-skilled ones in particularly stingy companies (of which there are many) provide the lowest tier of insurance. In this lowest tier, any medical costs upto $700 have to be paid out of pocket before the insurance kicks in (when the salary of low-skilled workers between $280 to $550 per month). Meanwhile in Saudi, the lowest tier only covers the so called poly-clinics upto around $1000 and any expenses above that have to be paid out of pocket (so good luck if you can't afford a surgery). Bahrain is an exception with government provided healthcare but that's likely to change. As I said earlier, its only good if you are privileged like us & even then you've already commented on the quality of healthcare.

Yes that is exactly how it is. Except Saudi Arabia has healthcare too and any major surgery for the people who cant afford it happens there. Its still not entirely free but its also not totally charged to a patient.
Btw, many companies have an option of upgrading to a higher tier of insurance – by paying a small charge. Health insurance in general is affordable in the Gulf.

I do feel like you are coming from a place with a strong sense of nostalgia, likely because you spend your entire childhood in the Gulf like I had. But the Gulf from our childhood has changed. It doesn't show from all the glitz and the carefully managed news, but the Gulf is poorer & a less welcoming place from when we were younger though with better labour rights. The economic growth seen in the Gulf in the past 1 years is primarily from high oil prices (in Saudi) and influx of Russian capital (in UAE) but anecdotally, every industry is down, booming souks & marketplaces don't have the crowds from pre-COVID, admissions in schools where admissions were hyper-competitive are down-sizing or some even shutting down. I don't know how long its been since you left the Gulf but you won't be coming back to the same place. The Gulf will probably never be the place it was during our childhood again except maybe Dubai which has a knack for rejuvenation!

Believe me, I hated growing up in Saudi. I still do not love GCC and I can maybe momentarily overlook the human right abuses but I cannot forget them. This to me matters more than the other issues of the region. I did not live a life of glitz and glamour, I made enough to live in my small private apartment and afford high quality food because I did not have to save or work towards owning a home to survive. I make double now in Canada after tax of what I made in GCC but I am so much worse off here in Canada. I am nostalgic about my life in the Gulf, I did not have to come home to sharing a house with multiple people while having a full time job but that’s it. I don’t care two bits about nostalgia just as GCC would not have cared about kicking me out in a rough economy.
You are right that GCC of my past is different and now its much less welcoming overall. You go there with a job in hand so immediate expenses are already taken care of. And all the anecdotes you have given reflect my views too. I left GCC in late December, 2022. Coming to Canada made hate GCC a little less actually.
Saudi Arabia is an exception because they are right now spending billions to build themselves up, many friends have landed good opportunities there and are making bank right now. But I know this wont last, just like the bad times in Canada will likely not last. Till then though, it’s a good time.

2) Low rentals - not if you live in Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait or Bahrain. Utilities are also quite expensive now.

Saudi is no different. Riyadh & Jeddah had their rents skyrocket too. Plus 15% Vat. Thankfully so far, generally the salaries have kept up. Not for everyone though and believe it or not groceries/food costs more in Saudi than UAE.

3) Low property prices - Again hard to own property in many of the countries except in designated areas and where you can own like Dubai, its a forever bubble that's going to burst worse than anywhere in the West as in 2008.

100% agreed. But most immigrants I have in mind go to UAE go there to earn money and build their homes back in home country.

4) Nice sunny weather - Extremely harsh summers. Atleast in winters, you can wear extra layers, what exactly can do in summers?

Personally hate the summers of GCC. Having lived both in extreme cold and heat though, I will take the heat. Personal opinion.

5) Fresh clean air - No, most Gulf cities are quite polluted thanks to the American V8s that everyone wants! Cleaner than India certainly though.

YES! Cleaner than India but not cleanest in the world. Cleaner than India is a HUGE difference though. Also Persian Gulf is an oil drilling hub so I don’t know how really clean the air is. True clean air I experienced in the wilderness of Canada recently. It is more than worth it to spend some time in a clean country’s wilderness.

Offcourse, there is less personal freedom. These are police states! Whatsapp calling & other voip calls are banned in every country except Bahrain and Kuwait. You can use a VPN but even these are blocked in the UAE for example, so you need to buy an expensive paid VPN with hundreds of servers and try changing server everytime they block one or convince your friends abroad to use Botim - the government approved voip that can be easily monitored or pay loads of money making ISD calls so that state-owned Etisalat and Du can make more money off you.

It is worse in Canada. Telecom is a huge oligarchy here, not too different from UAE. It is certainly more expensive than Saudi Arabia though, both countries of almost same population.

Coming to economic freedom, most contracts are binding till the end, there is no notice period unless explicitly stated which most won't. Say you got into a house rental contract for 1 year & got a broadband connection for 1 year. If you lose your job after 3 months, offcourse you can't stay for long since your visa will be cancelled, but you've to pay up the remaining 9 months of rent and broadband in full before they release you from the contract. Else, they can drag you to court and prevent you from leaving the country. Everything here is designed to extract the most money out of you without having you pay income taxes!

A rental lease in Canada works the same way. It is not pegged to a job or your income. If you don’t pay rent; you are dragged to LTB and your debt is sold to debt collectors. But it does not prevent anybody from leaving the country, so a massive plus point there for Canada against slave-like UAE. There are ways around this though, but I am not sure of the details.
UAE does not have many citizens so they can do the maximum extraction. Saudi & Qatar are better in that area which is evident with the lower cost of living (still too high) compared to UAE.

And yes, no one from the current generation wants to move to the Gulf except in rare cases where the job in really enticing (like mine).

I think a major role is also played by parents/elders who returned after being ungraciously thrown out during the 2008 and the 2020 crises. GCC is ruthless, always was. So many people who were scarred badly during that time don’t want their kids moving to GCC.
But it is possible to make hay, a lot of it and build a back up either inside or outside GCC. My Canadian family friends who are making bank in UAE are setting up for their retirement in Canada and EU. This is the best of both worlds situation for me.

Members, quoting my own post here which some might have missed:

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

The good parts of Canada are really good. I have the freedom of movement, to do whatever I want and having moved from a Oil-rich Middle Eastern Country, that feels very freeing. Plus I thought I could make this country home, something I will never be able to do in the GCC despite having being born and brought up there.
My criticism of Canada is more of a personal heartbreak. It breaks my heart to not be able to see a good viable future in this country and not just for me, but for the millions of others who are fooled by the Canadian Dream. It breaks my heart how ruined and broken this country is and how accelerated that ruining has become. If it were economically possible, I’d happily live here for the rest of my life. I am sad that so much potential is going to waste here.

Disclaimer: Views of my post are my own and applicable to me and my circle. It is funny that I have to say this but I can see that some people are getting very offended and/or hurt. My truth can be different from yours but it is still the truth.
If you are happy where you are, I am happy for you. People have come to me for help and not listened to me, which is a good thing in my opinion. People who listened thank me for my advice. I am not an expert, but I want people to be happy and thriving despite their (sometimes lack of) good education or work credentials. Even today there are certain people I say would make a smart move by coming to Canada. Not everybody is a general white collar median wage earning person. Thank you.

[fuzzydealhunter]

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

Not too long ago, a couple could’ve managed rent for a basement apartment and food easily just on a single minimum wage job, that is impossible now anywhere in Canada except maybe Alberta. But this depends on the skills and the employability of a person.

Key here is minimum wage. Maybe we should be making this comparison based on whats possible with minimum wage in KSA or India. Oh wait they don't. No protections whats so ever for the vulnerable population. Lets not keep moving between different strata's of the population based on what suits our argument. The average salary on Tbhp will be a lot higher than the INR 15,000 per month of India and SAR 3855 in KSA.

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

Except Saudi Arabia has healthcare too and any major surgery for the people who cant afford it happens there. Its still not entirely free but its also not totally charged to a patient.
Btw, many companies have an option of upgrading to a higher tier of insurance – by paying a small charge. Health insurance in general is affordable in the Gulf.

Again this is not free is it? I have had a cardiologist appointment with a full ECG and treadmill test which cost me all of $0. Again here the vulnerable population benefits as on minimum wage they seldom do not have any coverage. All of this is again funded by the taxes we pay.

Now these do exist in India. You can go to Government medical colleges to get treatment as well.

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

It is worse in Canada. Telecom is a huge oligarchy here, not too different from UAE. It is certainly more expensive than Saudi Arabia though, both countries of almost same population.

Agreed. But the telcos would say its because they have to cover such as vast area that is Canada. I pay $45 for 30gb and unlimited after with Bell. Only thing I would add is that when they say 5g+ here you actually get those speeds. In Kerala I was never able to get anywhere close to true 4g speeds but your phone still shows 4g. The rates have been pushed so low in India thanks to Jio that other telcos cant even make enough money to invest in upkeep. I would not be surprised that rates start creeping up in the next decade.

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

A rental lease in Canada works the same way. It is not pegged to a job or your income. If you don’t pay rent; you are dragged to LTB and your debt is sold to debt collectors. But it does not prevent anybody from leaving the country, so a massive plus point there for Canada against slave-like UAE.

The LTB is heavily in favour of the renters here. Talk to any landlord as to how much of a headache it is to get a non paying tenant out. Its not as easy as it seems.

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

I think a major role is also played by parents/elders who returned after being ungraciously thrown out during the 2008 and the 2020 crises. GCC is ruthless, always was. So many people who were scarred badly during that time don’t want their kids moving to GCC.

Again anecdotal. Think all parents want a better life for their kids. Not just GCC parents.

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

Are you a Canadian lawyer? If so I will use your services because Canadian Citizens and Lawyers are too afraid to get their bank accounts seized if they speak out and/or act against the Government without masking their identity and if its not that, then they are shunned for unmasking the truth in its entirety by homeowners and people with high paying jobs.

I have a high degree of regard for the rule of law here. I have never heard of such a thing and I would say you need to back this up or withdraw this statement.
The Canadian legal system is completely independent of the legislative and executive powers. A good example would be to read up on the Huawei saga herehttps://www.cbc.ca/news/meng-wanzhou...avor-1.6188472 . The Canadian executive could not scuttle the arrest even if they wanted to since it was based on the US arrest warrant. The case had to follow the legal process even has it hurt the Canada China political relationship.

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

My truth can be different from yours but it is still the truth.

Yes that is correct. But that is your truth, not the truth of Canada. Lets not generalize. As I have said earlier everyones case if different, what is not working for you might work for others.

[Imran.Syed]

Originally Posted by fuzzydealhunter

Key here is minimum wage. Maybe we should be making this comparison based on whats possible with minimum wage in KSA or India. Oh wait they don't. No protections whats so ever for the vulnerable population. Lets not keep moving between different strata's of the population based on what suits our argument. The average salary on Tbhp will be a lot higher than the INR 15,000 per month of India and SAR 3855 in KSA.

Cannot comment about India but Sr 3855 salary is good to afford a small apartment in an okayish area in Saudi Arabia using around 30-40% of your salary. Minimum wage for fresh graduates is close to that level even today. Pre 2020 you could have even saved a bit of money but right now, you wont be saving much. Thankfully normal salary nowadays is 6k in KSA. You can live a comfortable life in that money. Not applicable to qatar/uae and idk about Bahrain.

But the telcos would say its because they have to cover such as vast area that is Canada. I pay $45 for 30gb and unlimited after with Bell. Only thing I would add is that when they say 5g+ here you actually get those speeds. In Kerala I was never able to get anywhere close to true 4g speeds but your phone still shows 4g. The rates have been pushed so low in India thanks to Jio that other telcos cant even make enough money to invest in upkeep. I would not be surprised that rates start creeping up in the next decade.

Comparing India to Canada is not fair, economies of scale wise. In terms of speed reliability, again Saudi is much ahead in this area. Low-ish rates and good quality speeds. Low rates benefit consumers, check out the profits of Rogers and Bell.

The LTB is heavily in favour of the renters here. Talk to any landlord as to how much of a headache it is to get a non paying tenant out. Its not as easy as it seems.

Yes, GCC is slave-like in this area.

I have a high degree of regard for the rule of law here. I have never heard of such a thing and I would say you need to back this up or withdraw this statement.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ott...unts-1.6355396


Coming from Saudi Arabia, I will not recommend going there right away eyes closed. I am not talking about the drawbacks here but it is definitely not easy to work and live in Saudi Arabia. It's how much money you can make or peace you can find to massage the cons that matters in the end.