[sunnysideup_]

It is very upsetting how much casual racism has seeped into what one would assume an educated forum. Or has it always existed, and this thread has provided the platform to expose them? Either way, it is truly disappointing.

As a recent engineering graduate from an extremely reputed national government college in southern India, you would be surprised to know what sort of illegal activities that take place amongst the students, Indian or otherwise. You place the spotlight on students specifically from Africa because of their outsider status and your imbibed racism because the same things you accuse them of, Indians and White students did the same in my college. Add them to the conversation as well if we're talking about it.

Sorry for taking the conversation off-topic, but it needed to be said.

To get more on topic, I am ethnically Indian, but my citizenship does not reflect it. I do possess an OCI card, and it allows me all the privileges and rights of an Indian except voting, government jobs, and purchasing agricultural land (inheriting is fine). Government jobs I am not particularly stressed over, neither purchasing agricultural land as I don't have a farming background, but not being able to vote in the country I have lived most of my life in, identify myself in, and have repercussions in, is kind of upsetting. I would love to be able to vote for who I feel represent me, but I would have to give up my foreign passport that affords me so many travel and education privileges that an Indian passport won't. I can't have my cake and eat it too I suppose.

[V.Narayan]

All,

Many of us forget that Social Media {SM, hereafter} is a permanent written record of views, facts, falsehoods and accusations. It is not a casual verbal conversation between friends in our drawing room where one can speak at leisure and be forgiven what was said. Would we send a written letter to a Govt officer accusing some one of such a heinous crime unless we had hard proof? Probably not. While the CYA provided my our masks on SM i.e. our handles has its advantages in ensuring candid discourse they also create a sense of impunity in some {not you}. That is why we see such gutter language and trashy comments on most SM be it Bloomberg or Quora or whatever.

Originally Posted by v1p3r

We pontificate and postulate, until the reality of being a (poor / disadvantaged) minority hits some of us. I will wager that no country in the world treats Indians worse than we treat our lower castes. Yet we don't have any posts or threads about that.

+1 to that Well said.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by Spaced Out

I care two bits for the GCC region but lets have a conversation on how Indian employers treat (abuse) their workers.

So folks taking the mickey for those wanting to leave for better pastures should check their privilege first.

I pointed this out previously. In India I (and most of us on this forum) am golden. We only moan about privilege when we don't have it. We live in one of the most unequal (income), communal, casteist and racist countries in the world. Most of us are male, upper middle class, English speaking , and dare I say upper caste. We pontificate and postulate, until the reality of being a (poor / disadvantaged) minority hits some of us. I will wager that no country in the world treats Indians worse than we treat our lower castes. Yet we don't have any posts or threads about that.

[libranof1987]

Mod Note: Let this thread be for a healthy discussion surrounding emigration. While personal experiences and opinions are welcome and necessary, kindly desist from targeting a specific region, race or nationality. Thanks for your understanding!

[JMaruru]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

However, the green card doesn't need renewal, but mine does.

That is NOT true. US Green Card does need renewal, every 10 years.

[libranof1987]

Here are my thoughts basis my experience of having studied outside India, with the assumption of temporary / permanent emigration.

Everyone has their own motivation for emigration:
- some do it for the lifestyle: the partying, the fancy cars, the good life (aka the American dream)
- some do it for the money: plain and simple. Earn an insane amount of money, or at least so in INR terms
- some do it for the freedom: to escape whatever holds them back from pursing the life that they want (be it cultural, financial, expression, profession, personal)
- some do it because "this is the natural course of progression": School -> PCM in Jr College -> Engineering -> MS/MBA in the USA. Because Parampara.

.....

Everyone has their own ambition and motivation to emigrate. And this is an quite individual prerogative. So, for someone who wants to do it just for the money, country A might be a good fit, while for someone who wants to live life on their term, country B at a lower quality of life might be better vs. country A.

Understand what it is that moves the needle for you.

Personally speaking. I grew up in India -> went abroad -> got back. If I were to continue being abroad the first time I went (without returning to India), I'd probably be very okay with permanent immigration. But having returned and experienced this life (esp. post marriage and child), I'm very reluctant to move. This doesn't mean this is permanent.

Moving from one country to another, or emigrating from where you grew up to another brings about a whole bunch of promises and compromises, and pros and cons. The net is what you have to think about. Win some, lose some.

Choose wisely.

I do feel everyone must travel, and spend some time abroad. If you're the kind to look for it and allow it, it brings about tremendous perspective. At the risk of exaggeration, you tend to become a more evolved person, simply through the exposure you get to differing cultures, points of view, ways of life -> all that widens your horizons of thinking.

Lastly and this is strictly my opinion. Indians (rather, Asians in general) are notorious for doing their own thing even when abroad: hang out and talk to only other Indians - worse, in the native language, which is seen as an insult / "we don't want to include you in the conversation" to others, eat only the native food / at Indian restaurants, make no effort at immersing into the host country culture.

This is a very consistent image Indians have made for themselves across the US especially. Defeats the purpose of travel in my opinion.

[JediKnight]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

I pointed this out previously. In India I (and most of us on this forum) am golden. We only moan about privilege when we don't have it. We live in one of the most unequal (income), communal, casteist and racist countries in the world. Most of us are male, upper middle class, English speaking , and dare I say upper caste. We pontificate and postulate, until the reality of being a (poor / disadvantaged) minority hits some of us. I will wager that no country in the world treats Indians worse than we treat our lower castes. Yet we don't have any posts or threads about that.

India has one of the most successful and widespread positive affirmation programs in the world. The younger generation cares two hoots about caste. I think this caste thing is overblown and frequently used by India baiters to de-fame the country. It is even considered "progressive" and "uber-elite" in some circles to de-ride India on these lines.

Wondering you forget how the whites over-ran the whole world, (now the favorite emigration destinations ?). Violently destroying native communities, disempowering, usurping their culture and land. Now after grabbing most of the worlds wealth the have become apostles of human virtue and equality.

I was never privileged in any way. Come from a very humble background. Was mostly treaty very well by my countrymen.

[Turbohead]

Originally Posted by JediKnight

India has one of the most successful and widespread positive affirmation programs in the world. The younger generation cares two hoots about caste. I think this caste thing is overblown and frequently used by India baiters to de-fame the country. It is even considered "progressive" and "uber-elite" in some circles to de-ride India on these lines.

You're right that it does not exist any longer in the younger generation but people in their 40s still practice it very much and I'm seeing it at the workplace by such individuals - they discriminate employees and interviewees based on caste(through surname and family profession), skin colour, gender, region(state/locality), food preferences and religion. Long long way to go.

+1 to libran1987. Emigration is purely a personal choice and there is no right or wrong - it may or may not work but it's definitely worth a shot.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by Spaced Out

I care two bits for the GCC region but lets have a conversation on how Indian employers treat (abuse) their workers.

Even within the GCC, a lot of the abuse is done by Indian/Western middle managers or even those under complete Indian/Western management.

In the West (less so in America), a primary reason for better labour rights is because of inbuilt government safeguards, not because the people are somehow more benevolent.

[ashwin1224]

Originally Posted by JediKnight

The younger generation cares two hoots about caste. I think this caste thing is overblown and frequently used by India baiters to de-fame the country.

At the risk of going grossly OT, this statement is simply not true. Casteism still exists and thrives. It may not show up as it used to in the olden (golden?) days, yet its transformed into a different kind of beast. One that's gotten hold of an invisibility cloak, hiding it from the privileged gaze. You'll not feel it's presence unless and until it's you who's being discriminated again. Having grown up in an area where most of my friends were not from the preferable castes, I've come to realise they have been discriminated against everywhere, from relationships to petty office politics that affected career growth.

Good that we no longer believe in blatant caste based discrimination, it is honestly commendable given how hard it is to kill old habits, but in the same vein we must also acknowledge that the problem is still there, subliminaly. There's a reason why caste is a matter of debate even in the silicon valley. It is a concern when a foreign land finds a need to pass laws against ills of our society, and it is an even bigger concern when such laws are being painted as discriminatory against the perpetrators.

I do understand that the above might have come off as a rant, but I feel it is an important part of civil discourse that all points get equal representation and as such caste is one of those uneasy topics that many amongst us bundle with "things" when they say "things are bad in the country", which IMHO is a fair perspective and valid reason for wanting emigrate.

[Bhokal]

Originally Posted by libranof1987

hang out and talk to only other Indians - worse, in the native language

Please tell us what is wrong in talking to other Indians in our native languages? We don't have to behave like wannabe English 24x7. May as well become an English colony once again.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by JediKnight

The younger generation cares two hoots about caste. I think this caste thing is overblown and frequently used by India baiters to de-fame the country.

You must be joking. Or let me guess, you are unaffected by this. Here is a study on Bangalore's caste segregation by neighbourhood - https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities...le26039905.ece. Or let's look at the latest Whatsapp screenshot doing the rounds, attached to this post.

Do take some time to google 'Dalit man killed for' and see the amazing results. Did you know that you could die for wearing a moustache? Certainly overblown. Or wait, are you saying I'm an India baiter trying to defame the country I pay 40% of my earnings to?

Originally Posted by JediKnight

It is even considered "progressive" and "uber-elite" in some circles to de-ride India on these lines Wondering you forget how the whites over-ran the whole world, (now the favorite emigration destinations ?). Violently destroying native communities, disempowering, usurping their culture and land. Now after grabbing most of the worlds wealth the have become apostles of human virtue and equality.

Ah, but maybe you should pay a little more attention to the posts on this thread, as well as others. To give you a few examples of posts you seem to have missed:

Originally Posted by v1p3r

All the riches of the West were built on the rape and plunder of entire continents. All the current people in power in the US and Canada are basically illegal immigrants and invaders. While you might decry the GCC's harsh labour methods, they are NOT A PATCH on the actual slavery and tyranny that some people built their fortunes on.

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Let us also not forget that the ability of European countries to now be rich enough to provide such safety nets is built, in large part, upon the rape and plunder of Africa and Asia.

Originally Posted by v1p3r

'Western' democracies, on the other hand, are built on the rape of Africa and Asia. Easy to appear rich and generous when your parents stole from the entire neighbourhood.

Originally Posted by JediKnight

I was never privileged in any way. Come from a very humble background. Was mostly treaty very well by my countrymen.

Same pinch. But I am born male and upper caste, though I can't say with confidence if you are. What about those who aren't?

Originally Posted by Turbohead

You're right that it does not exist any longer in the younger generation but people in their 40s still practice it very much and I'm seeing it at the workplace by such individuals - they discriminate employees and interviewees based on caste(through surname and family profession), skin colour, gender, region(state/locality), food preferences and religion. Long long way to go.

Of course it exists in the younger generation. All the super smart people decrying reservations and talking about 'merit', all the 'fair (insert caste name) bride wanted' ads, those are all 20 year olds. Ain't goin' nowhere.

Apologies for the OT rant - this is only tangential to emigrating abroad.

Originally Posted by Bhokal

Please tell us what is wrong in talking to other Indians in our native languages? We don't have to behave like wannabe English 24x7. May as well become an English colony once again.

I think he meant that Indians will often speak to each other in a common language that others do not understand. If you and I were sitting with six Germans and we often broke into Hindi / Kannada / Malayalam / Gujarati, it would be considered rude - do look at Sam Kapasi's travelogues to understand the context. I have noticed that Europeans and Arabs will always be careful to speak in a common language - most often English - in a mixed crowd, which makes the conversation inclusive. The Chinese are less so, but like us they are also less used to social graces.

[benbsb29]

Originally Posted by Bhokal

Please tell us what is wrong in talking to other Indians in our native languages? We don't have to behave like wannabe English 24x7. May as well become an English colony once again.

Am sure you would feel comfortable sitting in a group of people speaking various languages around you, with you being the only one who doesn’t speak the same language as the others. All the more better when this is a situation in a team meeting in your workplace. Thankfully, that’s not how the world works.

Language is essential for communication and to bring people together. A common language helps bridge the challenges posed by people who speak different native languages.

It’s common courtesy to speak in an inclusive language when there is even one person who is from a different background.

Imagine how this forum would be if everyone could choose what language they wanted to individually post in.

[V.Narayan]

People of all nations unfortunately talk to each other in their local lingo even when there are one or two foreigners sitting in the group. The only ones, in my limited experience who work hard not to do this are Germans, Dutch and Japanese. Again, in my limited experience the French are the worst on this, absolutely the worst. Indians are no exception, mind you. The Italians will suddenly burst out prattling animatedly with waving hands in Italiano and poor me sitting there wasn't sure if they are trying to say something behind my back or quarrelling with each other. The French would be offensive in your face with their French talk.*

* I think the French get special coaching class at how to be rude and sneering and make a foreigner want to runaway. the waiters in Paris are the master trainers!!:-)

I think this ship is way way way off course now. Let's get it back to Emigration :-)

[Samurai]

Let's switch gears... turns out talented Germans are fleeing their country too.

https://youtu.be/1fKhUyF0xbM