[am1m]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

But in favour of the Anglo-Saxon West I'll say this, those societies are far more accommodating of Asian/African emigrants than we Indians would ever be if Africans started flooding our shores! Our innate racism would come pouring forth like a waterfall.

I see this happening in some of my friend's neighborhoods in Bangalore. Past few years, there have been an increasing number of students from a few African nations who have moved in while studying in various colleges in Bangalore. They aren't treated well usually, refused lodging by several house owners, treated as 'blackies' by the narrow-minded locals and shopkeepers, who pass comments right in front of them, assuming they can't understand the local language (everyone understands body language and tone though!). Yet all are quite happy to take their money!

We and our newspapers love complaining about the racist incidents against our citizens that get coverage. We often forget how we treat those who look different from us when we're in a position of the majority. Heck, until recently, even students from our North-East weren't too comfortable in some of our cities.

[AltoLXI]

Originally Posted by am1m

Past few years, there have been an increasing number of students from a few African nations who have moved in while studying in various colleges in Bangalore. They aren't treated well usually, refused lodging by several house owners

Nothing to do with racism but these so called "students" are into all sort of illegal activities. Many have overstayed without visa extensions, got into trouble with authorities, disturb neighbourhoods during night using modified cars and what not.

Link

Link2

[am1m]

Originally Posted by AltoLXI

...but these so called "students" are into all sort of illegal activities.

All of them? Most of them? Just like "all/most" Indians in <insert any Western country> are <insert whatever stereotype>?

(Search online and you'll find enough links to support anything.)

[AltoLXI]

Originally Posted by am1m

All of them? Most of them? Just like "all/most" Indians in <insert any Western country> are <insert whatever stereotype>?

"narrow-minded locals and shopkeepers" - All of them? Most of them?

Originally Posted by am1m

(Search online and you'll find enough links to support anything.)

Online links were for reference.

As you mentioned, check the friend's neighbourhoods or better still go around the areas in East Bangalore after 10pm and you will experience first hand. Let me not get into details and stop here.

[condor]

Originally Posted by benbsb29

While many countries including Sri Lanka are comfortable with the concept of dual citizenship, I don't understand why India has a differing stance on this.

There is nothing that says a country MUST offer dual citizenship.

While nothing to necessarily infer from these examples, including the possibility that this can happen here if India also offers dual citizenship.

1. Sri Lanka has this.

2. Pakistan has this.
Many senior defence officers (retired or serving) have dual citizenship, and their money stashed outside. Recent example: Bajwa.

3. Ukraine:
* 80% of past/present senior govt officials including many ministers have US citizenship. Includes Secy of Treasury, Health minister, Minister of Economy, former Guv of Odessa,
* 90% of the wealth of the rich is stashed away in EU/ USA
* Zelensky himself has huge assets including a huge mansion in the US.

And when the war started, many of these people easily moved out.


And we know in what state these countries are in today.

[benbsb29]

Originally Posted by condor

There is nothing that says a country MUST offer dual citizenship.

While nothing to necessarily infer from these examples, including the possibility that this can happen here if India also offers dual citizenship.

I never said India must. My question was "Why not?".

You chose specific countries to show why it's a bad idea, I'd like to point examples towards 'Why not':

Germany
Sweden
Finland
Hungary
France
Australia
etc

Originally Posted by condor

And we know in what state these countries are in today.

Not in a disadvantageous position as per my short list above, taken as a sampling.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by AltoLXI

"narrow-minded locals and shopkeepers" - All of them? Most of them?

You're quite correct to point that out, am guilty of generalization too.

Originally Posted by AltoLXI

As you mentioned, check the friend's neighbourhoods or better still go around the areas in East Bangalore after 10pm and you will experience first hand. Let me not get into details and stop here.

Yes I have, since I have friends there. So not sure what you mean, those neighborhoods seem pretty normal. But yes, this is going OT.

[Samurai]

Developed countries benefit from having dual citizenships since individual citizens will always stash their wealth in the developed country vs the under-developed one. There will be exceptions.

So India will not benefit from having dual-citizenship unless the other country is Sri Lanka, Pakistan, etc.

[noopster]

Originally Posted by benbsb29

You chose specific countries to show why it's a bad idea, I'd like to point examples towards 'Why not':

Germany
Sweden
Finland
Hungary
France
Australia
etc

One thing that absolutely stunned me was that some of these countries allow multiple citizenships (more than dual). A cousin of mine is married to a dual Kiwi/British citizen who also took up Australian citizenship some time ago.

Indian citizenship still remains an emotional topic for many of our compatriots, probably because of the popular nationalist sentiment from our upbringing. I have a friend who is settled in Singapore for the past 20 years but still hasn't taken citizenship or even PR. His son made the national cricket team last year and I was kidding him that at least now he should, but he won't do it (the kid might, depending on whether he settles in the UK later on, he's still a teenager). Another person I know shipped his wife back home to India to deliver their child since he didn't want the child to be eligible for a US passport by birth! I must confess I am a lot more practical than these guys, if the opportunity ever presented itself!

Dual citizenship for Western countries is actually a no-brainer. I think the issue is when the other country is Pakistan, Bangladesh or something similar. But isn't the OCI almost equivalent to having a dual citizenship?

Originally Posted by Samurai

Developed countries benefit from having dual citizenships since individual citizens will always stash their wealth in the developed country vs the under-developed one. There will be exceptions.

So India will not benefit from having dual-citizenship unless the other country is Sri Lanka, Pakistan, etc.

Absolutely right! This is what I was struggling to articulate.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Why focus on wealth? There are many reasons for having dual nationality, some practical, some emotional.

If those emigrating to another country could, when they become a citizen of that country, keep their original passport/citizenship too, simply, why wouldn't they? At least if they are and wish to remain attached to their mother country. My friend from Mauritius has been British for decades: but she is still Mauritian too. Mauritius does not have a problem with that. She has no wealth to stash: she is simply attached, emotionally and practically, to two countries.

I am an immigrant in India. Would I like to be an Indian citizen? Why not? It's been nearly 20 years, it is my country.

Would I like to give up my British citizenship? Not so much. Mostly for practical purposes, which will be understood by all those here who have to apply for visas --- and by all here who have returned from abroad, with their foreign passports and OCI cards, and are used to relatively easy travel.

If I apply for Indian citizenship, I have to renounce my British citizenship. India says so.
If you-an-Indian want US/UK citizenship, you have to renounce your Indian citizenship. India says so.

OCI is a sort of middle ground that works for both of us. To a large extent.

[McLaren Rulez]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

those societies are far more accommodating of Asian/African emigrants than we Indians would ever be if Africans started flooding our shores! Our innate racism would come pouring forth like a waterfall.

Why wait that long! We have a live example within a few posts on the same thread!

Originally Posted by AltoLXI

Nothing to do with racism but these so called "students" are into all sort of illegal activities. Many have overstayed without visa extensions, got into trouble with authorities, disturb neighbourhoods during night using modified cars and what not.

Note also that starting a sentence with "Nothing to do with racism" is almost inevitably followed by a racist comment. Plenty of Indians overstay their visas when they're abroad and plenty of Indians at home get into trouble with the authorities, disturb neighbourhoods at night using modified cars and what not.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by vishnurp99

Hmm really!. I don't know why & from where you get this impression.

https://www.newindianexpress.com/cit...se-593862.html is a case that comes to mind only because I happened to be in the vicinity at the time, but there are innumerable others. Any Indian resident will know that court cases are backlogged in the decades, and you often need to bribe a policeman to file an FIR. Please do ask the Olympians protesting in Delhi how long they took to get an FIR filed against a sexual predator politician, before expounding on the virtues of the justice system. In case you weren't aware, it took a Supreme Court hearing, where the police and SGI were chastened by the Chief Justice of India, before the FIR was filed. Just by the way, one of the complainants is a child. Does this happen elsewhere? Probably. Does that excuse what happens in India? Not in my book, but maybe it does in yours.

Originally Posted by vishnurp99

Your exposure & experience of India seems to be very limited & biased.

Yes, we are all discussing emigrating to a foreign land where the money / standard of living is better, but I'm the limited and biased one. I actually live around the world and pay all my income tax in India, giving me a far more comprehensive view than most. My experience is also personal - some people 'threatened' me and abused my family. At that time I was young so I took it quietly.

Originally Posted by kiku007

With no pathway to permanent residency in the GCC countries, I don't know why we have to debate about how GCC > Canada in the "Emigrating to a Foreign Land" thread. They certainly are in some ways but may be have a separate thread if it helps.

I don't know how correct this is. I have a 10 year renewable residency permit, not linked to anything. In practice, it is not dissimilar to a US green card, which actually requires the holder to show up in the US every six months at least unlike my permit. However, the green card doesn't need renewal, but mine does.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

As@kiku007 writes, those who move to the GCC region do so purely for economic reasons with the intention {or lack of options} to return to the motherland. Or in a few cases use it as a pad to move to the West.

I would not say purely. Some of us also make decisions based on career opportunities in our specific fields and overall standard of living.

[Mr.Ogre]

Originally Posted by kiku007

To be honest, I don't know and hence, I asked the question.

I have been following this thread but never wanted to comment as I have so much to share but not sure about where to begin as this topic is very close to my heart. But I could not resist when I saw this post of yours.

It kind of sums up everything, at least for me. Try doing that to even a local corporator in India and you see what happens next.

As for me and my family, this couldn't have been any better than migrating to Sydney and I am happy I did this when I had the opportunity.

I was doing well in India but wasn't happy with the quality of life. I believe in "if you do not like something try and change it, if you cannot change it then just change it, and if you cannot do that, then just learn to live with it".

I have witnessed changes in Governments and with the changes hopes of things becoming better. What the heck, I voted for the change. But when I realized things are never going to be any better that's when I decided it was time to move out.

Realizing to move out (migrate) is the easy part. When you have to work on that, that is when you see the big mountain you have to climb. And that is when you start questioning yourself, start questioning the motive, especially when you have already achieved things and have to start all over again in a new place. To add to that when you realize that you are on the verge of becoming obsolete in your field of work and will have to put in substantial work to make it happen. It becomes even harder to commit to this decision when you are 36, married, and have a family. Friends and family all think you have completely lost it when you talk to them about your plan and expect at least someone to support you.

Now when I look back, I think I will do it all over again, because it was completely worth it. I moved here on 9th January 2019 after having got the PR for me and my family around March-2018.

I quit my job the day I got the PR, went to Cochin the week after (because someone I trust told me the institute there trains you well), stayed there until October 2018, studied hard, and worked harder on my plan, and by the Grace of God, things clicked. Throughout this process I never thought about failing, just tried to stay positive and kept all the "what-if" thoughts away. I strongly believe you fail the moment you think about falling. That's just me.

If I could do it, I think anyone can do it. You just need to be firm on what you want and be able to put in the work that's needed to make it happen. Because let's be honest, no one is waiting on the other side with a red carpet and life is hard everywhere. But if you are able to see it through I am pretty sure 95% of the people will appreciate what they have gone through and what they have achieved. This makes you so much more confident in life.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by AltoLXI

Nothing to do with racism but these so called "students" are into all sort of illegal activities. Many have overstayed without visa extensions, got into trouble with authorities, disturb neighbourhoods during night using modified cars and what not.

Have you ever met an African living in India? I’ve had a bunch of friends when I was living in Delhi and most of them are decent people, just like most Indians are decent people.

Somehow, the following post seems relevant to this thread.

[Spaced Out]

Originally Posted by SN88

I also find it commendable how they have enslaved educated people into believing they are superior beings. I see Indian engineers, managers get so conscious in their presence and have a natural subdued stance. It is a complete bulldoze. It saddens me to see our own people lose their spines!!

Originally Posted by Imran.Syed

What you describe about Qatar is common to this day in GCC. Your salary is not guaranteed to be paid on time or in full. But here is the thing, there is a work contract in place and a strong Ministry of Labour that enforces it.
From my experience in Saudi Arabia, If your salary is delayed or not paid according to contract in excess of three months, you can go to the Ministry of Labour's courts and/or ombudsman and fight it out there. The court will enforce an order that the company will immediately let you transfer your work sponsorship to a different employer or leave the country. My father did this, in 1990. It is far easier to do this today then it was back then. And nowadays I hear in the Saudi, MOL blocks the offending company's access to government services until the issue is resolved.

The order will also force the company to pay your dues, but that is not enforced stringently. The delays in payments and salaries is mostly in the construction sector though, because it relies on the Finance ministries disbursing payments which they stop in a crisis or when oil prices aren't that great.

There is a lot more stuff that does not get out though. It is not easy to live and work in the GCC, but the financial payoff is well worth the abuse for many people. And yes I used the word abuse, because that is what happens a lot in those countries but my family and so many people I know would not have left India if they could've accomplished their hopes and dreams in India... probably.

I am sure whenever somebody leaves GCC after a multi-year stint, they leave with quality assets built/bought back home at least.

I care two bits for the GCC region but lets have a conversation on how Indian employers treat (abuse) their workers. My dad worked for a famous textile mill in Punjab after retirement from army. Workers from UP & Bihar (called bhayye) were given opium by the management to encourage them to stay on in Punjab and not go home.

In one case, a worked died in the course of factory work and the management (owners of the biggest woolen sweater brand of the 90s - named after a French principality) covered it up. Paid the wife off and got the local panchayat to cremate.

So folks taking the mickey for those wanting to leave for better pastures should check their privilege first.