[Ace F355]

lol, this thread is becoming place to bash racism instead of giving some insights to saildrive about Canada.

Let me tell you something folks, We Indians are most racist people in the world. We discriminate on basis of skin tone, language, religion, cast and what not.

I myself had a really bad experience in Karnataka during my 2003 trip when locals almost had me. (Skin tone and language seemed to be my biggest enemy at that time)

4 and half years, 5 countries and 14 different cities, I am yet to see some racism against myself in the West. However, what hurts most is, observing that even in a foreign land, people from India remain North Indians and South Indians and they never mingle with each other.

When racial discrimination issue in Australia came up last year, whole country went nuts about it. But if a group of Bihari people is beaten in Delhi, nobody gives a s**t. (No offense to people from Bihar)

Racism remains to be biggest mantle block among us Indians. Friends, my personal observation is that if your brain is open enough to accept others, most people will accept you really well. Enough said.

[mohit]

I have only one thing to say - go with a mindset that you are going to be discriminated against and thats what you will find. Go with an open mind and you will find that the world is not that bad a place after all (for most parts that is!).

As far as Canada is concerned, I will second what VLOCT has already said - if you are from a non IT field, do your homework before you make the leap. Going can be tough specially for fields like Architecture/Engineering/Medicine.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by e1t1bet

What I cannot tolerate is a house owner refusing to sell me a house because I am Indian.

It's his house. He should have the right to sell it or not sell it to whoever he wants!!!

Anyway, come to Ghatkopar, Bombay. A particular vegetarian community majority building make it very difficult for any person from outside their
community to buy a flat in the building. They don't want to take a chance
that meat & fish may be cooked or consumed in their building.
I have also read of another big building in Bombay Town side - totally dominated by one community. They even have a big temple of their God inside the building. And people from outside the community find it difficult
to buy a flat in this building.

Again I don't blame these people at all. It's their flat, they can sell it or not sell it to whoever they want. That's their right.

[e1t1bet]

Originally Posted by carboy

It's his house. He should have the right to sell it or not sell it to whoever he wants!!!

Anyway, come to Ghatkopar, Bombay. A particular vegetarian community majority building make it very difficult for any person from outside their
community to buy a flat in the building. They don't want to take a chance
that meat & fish may be cooked or consumed in their building.
I have also read of another big building in Bombay Town side - totally dominated by one community. They even have a big temple of their God inside the building. And people from outside the community find it difficult
to buy a flat in this building.

Again I don't blame these people at all. It's their flat, they can sell it or not sell it to whoever they want. That's their right.

aah, I knew this would come up when I made that point. For some communities like Jains, it is a taboo to associate themselves with non-veg. They won't let an outsider in, not because it is in conflict with their religion, at least the way they interpret it (yes, it sounds retarded but they have the right to practice whatever it is that they believe in).
It is the same with other communities wanting to live together, like orthodox jews in London etc.
This situation is COMPLETELY different from someone not selling you a house when you, in no way, are in conflict with his religious or other views.
The difference is the same as being denied membership to an exclusive club, and being denied membership to a club open to all based on one's identity.
I am not saying that he shouldn't have the right to sell his house to whosoever he wants to sell it to. My point is that Indians do get discriminated against, and this is just one way.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by e1t1bet

aah, I knew this would come up when I made that point. For some communities like Jains, it is a taboo to associate themselves with non-veg. They won't let an outsider in, not because it is in conflict with their religion, at least the way they interpret it (yes, it sounds retarded but they have the right to practice whatever it is that they believe in).
It is the same with other communities wanting to live together, like orthodox jews in London etc.
This situation is COMPLETELY different from someone not selling you a house when you, in no way, are in conflict with his religious or other views.
The difference is the same as being denied membership to an exclusive club, and being denied membership to a club open to all based on one's identity.
I am not saying that he shouldn't have the right to sell his house to whosoever he wants to sell it to. My point is that Indians do get discriminated against, and this is just one way.

Discrimination is discrimination - irrespective of whether it's because of colour or country of origin or religion or diet or whatever.

And a residential building cannot be equated to an exclusive club.

[e1t1bet]

Originally Posted by Ace F355

Let me tell you something folks, We Indians are most racist people in the world. We discriminate on basis of skin tone, language, religion, cast and what not.

This is exactly what the babus who worked for East India Company used to say. We discriminate among ourselves, so let the white man carry the whip.

Originally Posted by Ace F355

However, what hurts most is, observing that even in a foreign land, people from India remain North Indians and South Indians and they never mingle with each other.

(1) North Indians, South Indians, East and West Indians are culturally very different. The concept of one India is relatively recent.
(2) Northies, Southies etc mix a lot. There are marriages etc between them these days.

Originally Posted by Ace F355

When racial discrimination issue in Australia came up last year, whole country went nuts about it. But if a group of Bihari people is beaten in Delhi, nobody gives a s**t.

Because against external harm, all countries unite. A wife beater does, often, protect his wife against a rapist.

[e1t1bet]

Originally Posted by carboy

Discrimination is discrimination - irrespective of whether it's because of colour or country of origin or religion or diet or whatever.

And a residential building cannot be equated to an exclusive club.

(1) If I build a Jain apartment complex, and allow only Jains inside since others might not stick to the dietary restrictions laid down by mahaveera, I am not discriminating. I am trying to conserve my religious tenets. It is the same same as an exclusive club.
(2) When I make a product, meant for ALL, and I then move on to say "you cannot buy it because you are Indian" I am being discriminatory.

The difference between the two is that in the first case , one is trying to create exclusivity. In the second case, the person is trying to exclude one community in particular.

(3) When did I distinguish between different forms of discrimination?

[Ace F355]

Originally Posted by e1t1bet

This is exactly what the babus who worked for East India Company used to say. We discriminate among ourselves, so let the white man carry the whip.

(1) North Indians, South Indians, East and West Indians are culturally very different. The concept of one India is relatively recent.
(2) Northies, Southies etc mix a lot. There are marriages etc between them these days.

Because against external harm, all countries unite. A wife beater does, often, protect his wife against a rapist.

Your statements doesn't change the fact that we are racists. Instead looking into our own faults, we blame it on others.

Guruji khud pyaz khaye aur dhusro ko parhez bataye.....

Anyway, I am done with this thread. I have poured in my inputs about Canada to thread creator. Thanks.

[HPP]

Originally Posted by saildrive

1) Is Canada a good country to go to? Why not Australia or New Zealand?

Canada is a perfectly good place to move to. I'm not sure you can compare other "western" countries to each other. They all are fairly comparable, and all have their pro's and con's.

Originally Posted by saildrive

2) Why should one go to Canada - better lifestyle / better education for kids / cleaner - greener country / good living & civic habits and in all some sort of peace of mind

It's a different life in Canada/U.S. Not saying it's better, just different. Things happen much more efficiently and there are working systems for everything. It's hard to explain, but it's a nice life. I love India, but coming from outside, it's a tough place to take some times(how slow/inefficiently things/anything gets done).

Originally Posted by saildrive

3) Does India not offer similar or better opportunities - If not now, dont we imagine that things will get better in days / months / years to come

Opportunities are different. There are great opportunities in India, and elsewhere. You'll get a different experience outside the country that may help you advance within India if/when you come back. But for certain things, it's going to take a very long time for India to change how things function.. Which affects opportunities as a whole.

Originally Posted by saildrive

4) Leaving your country for another - where and of whom you know nothing or little about ?

That is tough, and understandably scary. I'd just do research online, there is a wealth of info out there. That is a big difference from years past. I am first generation here in the U.S. for my family, and how/when my parents and their generation came over was much much much tougher then those who choose to come now.. It's a small world now. Information, communication, travel options, etc.. Not that bad in this day and age.

Originally Posted by saildrive

5) On second thoughts may be I am a bit lazy not wanting to leave my comfort zone and try out greener pastures...

Comfort zone is good, but it sometimes holds people back.

Originally Posted by saildrive

6) How easy is it to get a job and start and earn a living - when you dont have anyone to fall back upon in a strange country?

I'd only leave if a solid job is in hand. But again, it's a small world, you'll always have family and friends(whether they are new or old).

Originally Posted by saildrive

7) Heard that the government takes care of you - but that only after you become a citizen there.

Everyone has certain rights, but once you become a citizen, you get more benefits. I wouldn't base any decisions on that however, you have to plan to take care of yourself, then the added govt benefits are a bonus.

Originally Posted by saildrive

8) May be there are a lot of things and reasons, why one decides to go.... but the moot question that i am haggling with right now..... Is It Worth It?

That is up to you and the opportunities in front of you. It is also up to what you want out of life.

Originally Posted by saildrive

Cos once you are gone......there is no looking back!!

I disagree, I have plenty of family who has come and gone(formally moved) multiple times between India and the U.S./Canada.

Originally Posted by saildrive

Share your views and experiences of those who have gone and settled abroad...maybe it will help people stuck in the moment and GET OUT OF IT, like me!

Cheers

In the end, it's a very personal decision. But with all the info out there(including a thread like this), you should be able to get a good idea of if it's good for you.


BTW, I skimmed some of this thread, but skipped most of the pages. I noticed racism as a topic. It's a non issue, not even worth worrying about or me writing any more then this.

[JustCause]

On a serious note, this thread is in all probability, going to be LOCKED, and, as the thread starter has not posted a response till now, I refrain from replying to any questions put up by fellow BHPians.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by vivekiny2k

I beg to differ. in hyd or bangalore, you can still stop in the middle of road, spit some pan, abuse the autowallah relating to the women in his family (I guess I went a little too far here), and move on. Just like in punjab

Well we do not do that in Punjab much. Yes it happens in punjab, but is extremely rare. Standing in middle of the road and spitting happens more where I stay now
BTW I have seen a man open a car door while driving, and spit pan, San Jose! Guess where he was from

Originally Posted by e1t1bet

Are you trying to imply that Tata, Reliance, Bharti, ICICI, HDFC, ONGC,ITC, OIL, HUL, P&G, Infosys, Wipro etc etc etc discriminate on the basis of a person's native state and language? How profound!!!

What kind of utopia you are living in. Ever heard of glass ceiling. Just the way you say there is a glass ceiling which will prevent an Indian from becoming the CEO of American MNC. there are lots of Indian companies where people from a certain region at mostly at the top.
Discrimination exists everywhere in the world, you are trying to paint some kind of picture that its much more in the west, than in the east.
Well you are mistaken. If you ask a Delhi native, "is there racism in Delhi?" He will say "Are you kidding me? There is none". However if you ask a north East guy the answer will be different.
So maybe your kind are in majority in the IT industry in India. For you definitely its better here. But for somebody who is in minority, things may be different.

No. A ghetto need not be a slum.
From wiki:

"Ghetto was originally used in Venice to describe the area where Jews were compelled to live. A ghetto is now described as a "portion of a city in which members of a minority group live; especially because of social, legal, or economic pressure."[1]"

At this point, I must also say that a lot of people move abroad for pure career opportunities. And yes, that is a big plus abroad. India doesn't have those many industries, and good univs are difficult to get into.

There are lots of Ghettos in India too. Just like anywhere in the world. And having spent extensive time in California, I mostly stayed in apartment complexes which had a head healthy mix of Asian/South Asian/Afro/White etc., Do not paint abroad with the same picture. Its not some one entity. Just like in India, the midwest is totally different from cities like SFO and Vancouver..

Originally Posted by Gansan

I beg to differ, though I have never been abroad. To grin and bear a snide remark or even a slur from someone in another state of India, and from someone in a foreign land has a subtle difference. The former is (figuratively) from your own brother, while the latter is from a total stranger. The playing field is level in the former, not in the latter. Moreover such occurances in India are extremely rare.

Yes you may think that an Indian is figuratively my brother, but I have no such delusions about somebody who is racist against me!

If I have to move to Punjab tomorrow, though I may initially find the place strange, I am sure I will not be discriminated against, except may be a friendly taunt or two from a few. More importantly, whatever the average joe on the street may think, I will have as much a constitutional right to live in Punjab as he does. Which will not be the case in a foreign land and one will always be on the defensive.

Imagine a Australian telling you this
"Well mate, there is no racism any where in Europe. I recently moved there, and there are no race issues". Won't you laugh.
Your Punjab example is equivalent.
Punjab has a certain type of racism. Its called economic racism against natives of certain parts of the country.
To feel it
1. You have to be from a certain part of the country(which I will not specify here)
2. Along with that you have to be a farm hand or a rickshaw puller.
Only when 1 and 2 are met, you will get the doze.

Originally Posted by e1t1bet

Institutesx are made by its employees, yes. But there can be bias at the institute level, only if at the microscopic level, all biases are aligned. It isn't that all bosses favour Tamilians or people from some state specifically. Out of 100 managers, 30 might be neutral, and the remaining 70 might all favour different communities. The resultant is , thus, no bias. And if one is caught in such a situation, then, nothing stops the person from switching jobs...

You are contradicting yourself. You say 70% managers are regionalistic and its not a problem? And things balance out?
Well things may balance out for a region where the representation is high. For example if 20% of all engineers belong to region X.
What about region Y which contributes to maybe just 0.01% of the managers.
Lets say out of 1000 managers in 10 companies a total of 2 managers belong to region Y.
Where you do you think that person goes?
Its very easy to be part of the majority and pretend there is no racism.

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by JustCause

On a serious note, this thread is in all probability, going to be LOCKED, and, as the thread starter has not posted a response till now, I refrain from replying to any questions put up by fellow BHPians.

I hope they don't lock it. The topic is relevant to many people, and not just the OP.

I find the argument that you can not become a CEO outside this country flawed. It is much easier to start your own business in developed countries than here. There is an annual report also published to this effect by some international body i think. So, i'd say that if you want to become a CEO, its much easier to start your own company in a "phoren" land than here (atleast as far as the red tape is concerned) To make the business successful, you need to study your customer base and work accordingly, of course.

Someone earlier mentioned about how medical treatment in US/Canada becomes a pain because you cant grease your way through to the doctor. I know this can be very frustrating. For non life threatening problems, you may need to wait months to see a doc. But look at the positive side. The concept of "golden hour" in case of accidents is totally alien to us. See the thread about runaway lorry mowing down people. Apart from the TBHP member who tried to contact emergency services, what were most others doing with their phones? Taking pictures!! What makes it even worse is that someone who wanted to help was helpless to do that!! The non existent value for human life here is the single biggest factor in favor of emigration.

[HPP]

Someone mentioned that it isn't possible for an Indian to become a CEO in an American MNC. That is False. If you live in America and watch the financial channels, you'd be shocked at the amount of Indians that are on tv every single day who are CEO's, Senior executives and other very high power positions at the largest companies in the world. Indians are becoming a powerhouse in the current western world, and it's because of raw brainpower. True intelligence and hard work breaks down any walls that are perceived or real.

[JustCause]

Originally Posted by amitoj

I hope they don't lock it. The topic is relevant to many people, and not just the OP.

I find the argument that you can not become a CEO outside this country flawed. It is much easier to start your own business in developed countries than here. There is an annual report also published to this effect by some international body i think. So, i'd say that if you want to become a CEO, its much easier to start your own company in a "phoren" land than here (atleast as far as the red tape is concerned) To make the business successful, you need to study your customer base and work accordingly, of course.

Someone earlier mentioned about how medical treatment in US/Canada becomes a pain because you cant grease your way through to the doctor. I know this can be very frustrating. For non life threatening problems, you may need to wait months to see a doc. But look at the positive side. The concept of "golden hour" in case of accidents is totally alien to us. See the thread about runaway lorry mowing down people. Apart from the TBHP member who tried to contact emergency services, what were most others doing with their phones? Taking pictures!! What makes it even worse is that someone who wanted to help was helpless to do that!! The non existent value for human life here is the single biggest factor in favor of emigration.

I was in the mood to say exactly the same in my previous post, but I thought I might get an infraction, and being a newbie BHPian, I don't want to start off bad.

[tsk1979]

Note from mod: Please do not speculate on what mods will do. Threads do not get locked due to debates. Threads get locked when debates turn into slanging matches and personal attacks.
In other cases threads get locked when issue is resolved, and no relevant discussion points remain