[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by mayankk

One, you're strangely detached from the reality of public transportation in delhi. So the problem, per se, is not with me, but a lack of the base, ground transportation system. Understand this: I can get into the metro from a general area, and get TO a general area. After that, I have no control as to how to get to the eventual location, or on how much I am gypped.

I haven't said that public transport is without a problem but that still does not take away the fact that it is indeed the best in India at the moment. The last mile connectivity is one of the major problems but it is not as if we do not have options (auto/pedal rickshaw/short haul feeder buses).

Originally Posted by mayankk

Two, the CNG conversion, I honestly have not got your point. The state transport was mandated. Are you highlighting their plight of queuing up in dedicated, owned, cng filling stations till at least sometime back? Subsidized CNG?
The private transport was by choice.

It was all public transport meaning all trucks, buses and auto's plying the city and not just state transport vehicles.

Originally Posted by mayankk

Three, raising a hue and cry is something that has been going on. the "middle class" has been lamenting for ages to augment the public transportation system. The buses are rickety, they dont drive well, there is no comprehensible frequency, the autos overcharge, or outright refuse, the metro is brilliant, but collapsing under the loads, the cabs are just more wheels on the road, the roads are jammed up owing not just to traffic, but the sheer wasteful lengths of time that projects keep going on for, there is massive encroachment on main roads everywhere, the cops are corrupt, and will not implement rules, the PUC is not implemented, the construction is not regulated.
Stop me if you've heard ANY this for the first time.

No I am not hearing any of it for the first time. The critique was the same when the public transport was awful and it is still the same when it is much improved. The point is we will ALWAYS complain. Tell me in the last 10 years if the public transport hasn't improved? What makes you think it is not going to improve further. Even now it is at a stage where it is not unreasonable to expect someone to commute to their work every alternate day for 15 days! If your expectation is that you are going to get a train right from outside your house and dropped right in front of where you work, as good public transport, is not going to happen. All the problems that you have raised are due to congestion, the sheer volume and systemic failures by the ruling government but that is not to say that it cannot be improved from what it is right now. The government has already said they are going to redesign the roads scientifically, that they will take care of dust by regularly cleaning the roads and many more other steps. Give them sometime.

Originally Posted by mayankk

PS: Glad that you brought up london. Do compare the state of their system with Delhi's.

Delhi Metro is much better than the ancient tube in terms of both frequency and comfort. It is just the reach they are ahead on but even that won't be an issues in sometime as the Delhi metro spread its legs. People walk as much as 2+ kilometer to reach tube stations and do not complain, some use their cars to reach the station where they park and do not complain and some just skate to the tube station and again, do not complain. The road transport needs huge improvement both with regards to frequency and timing and I agree but that will also improve once we start to re-design our roads as they should have been all along and work on easing congestion.

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

I haven't-----------SNIP-----congestion.

Everything that you say points to an even odd scheme as NOT a solution to this.
And like I said, a lot of people will agree that expecting them to commute on public transportation has turned out to be better than using their cars which they'd been doing forever. But there will be people for whom it is impossible. An example is a neighbour, who found the first cop on the second day, and paid the 2k challan, because he has to move in and out of office the whole day and needs his car. A congestion tax by another name.
Noone expects a personal metro station. However, even the most adapting will expect a metro feeder to BE a metro feeder, or an auto to not say no. And other assorted stuff.

The problem is that the growth of the transportation has always been reactive. The population and clusters of operation have boomed, lets do the bare minimum for the moment. Nothing to do with the next years growth.

I am hoping for change, and if these guys can take such a step as this, it shows a bit of cajunas. I am hoping for the same in every other area as well.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

In the so called foreign country, I walk a kilomtere to the station, take the train, walk another half a kilometer to the place I work at the same time spending more on commuting that I would on fuel if I used my own car. The killer - $5 per hour parking fees that I will have cough up for parking in the city. I know managing direcotrs who travel the same way.

And that, up there, is something I would take up.
Unfortunately, ways to go, work to do, before that will be seen here.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by poloman

Are you confusing reducing congestion to reducing pollution? It is easier to talk about entitlement of middle class particularly when you are stationed in a foreign country. Compare the carbon footprint of a person in the country you are currently with a average joe in India. You will know the difference.
There is a good editorial in TOI today. They are advocating to scrap this ASAP.

In the so called foreign country, I walk a kilomtere to the station, take the train, walk another half a kilometer to the place I work at the same time spending more on commuting than I would on fuel if I used my own car. The killer - $5 per hour parking fees that I will have cough up for parking in the city. I know managing directors who travel the same way.

Originally Posted by mayankk

Everything that you say points to an even odd scheme as NOT a solution to this.
And like I said, a lot of people will agree that expecting them to commute on public transportation has turned out to be better than using their cars which they'd been doing forever. But there will be people for whom it is impossible. An example is a neighbour, who found the first cop on the second day, and paid the 2k challan, because he has to move in and out of office the whole day and needs his car. A congestion tax by another name.
Noone expects a personal metro station. However, even the most adapting will expect a metro feeder to BE a metro feeder, or an auto to not say no. And other assorted stuff.

The problem is that the growth of the transportation has always been reactive. The population and clusters of operation have boomed, lets do the bare minimum for the moment. Nothing to do with the next years growth.

I am hoping for change, and if these guys can take such a step as this, it shows a bit of cajunas. I am hoping for the same in every other area as well.

I do realize the challenge it has for some people just like your friend and if the government could think of a way to accomodate people like him. I know the government can and should do better but think of the overall situation and there arent too many options available. Any decision which makes it inconvenient will be a hard decision.

[sourabhzen]

Originally Posted by invincible7

... if you come back in one piece at the end of the day or use a taxi which isn't cost effective on a daily or alternate day basis for long. So observing the trend of traffic on road I believe that pollution levels wont be decreasing as such as the number of cars on road are no less - they have just moved the times to commute at different hours of the day, so don't know what this exercise is all about. Also I would term it as an harassment by state to working people like me who work late in office and then next morning are forced to be in office early as we have limited choice of commuting. I am amused with this exercise to say the least and wonder where it will lead us with this kind of thinking from our leaders.

Taxi isn't cost effective for long, as you say, but a car owner can use it for 5 working days.
You made a choice to work late in the office but the next day is your day and your time as it works on alternate days.
We will no by the end of 15 days where is it leading to. It may prove to be complete waste or it may give some positive results. Either way it is worth trying at a cost of 5 working days' inconvenience.

Originally Posted by myavu

Being odd numbered I had managed to reach office by 8:05 a.m. today. If government is planning to repeat this every quarter with 15 days each (8.00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m) I will manage it like this. Anything more I am planning for a second car either new or old.

Cheers!

Vinu

4 quarters multiplied by 6 working days equals 24 days in a year. I would not buy another car for 24 days of inconvenience in a year.

Originally Posted by sgiitk

Sorry, who pays the taxes to keep the nation running - the middle class, and the percentage being fed back is a fraction of the collection.

I said then and still think switching public transport to CNG from Diesel was outright stupid. Reducing the compression from 20 to 10, changing over to spark ignition from compression ignition. Even more basic who was the fool who decided to use Good Transport engines for passenger vehicles (probably five to ten times the bhp). .

Tax structure is flawed but it clearly shows that middle class is not a vote bank. So we all must accept the fact that it is us who are going to suffer, no matter what. Question is, is there a way around it?

Regarding CNG vs Diesel buses, You mean to say a CNG bus causes similar pollution (if not more) than a diesel bus? I agree that using a good transport engine for passenger vehicles is idiotic idea but why there is no questions raised about it?

Originally Posted by mayankk

Three, raising a hue and cry is something that has been going on. the "middle class" has been lamenting for ages to augment the public transportation system. The buses are rickety, they dont drive well, there is no comprehensible frequency, the autos overcharge, or outright refuse, the metro is brilliant, but collapsing under the loads, the cabs are just more wheels on the road, the roads are jammed up owing not just to traffic, but the sheer wasteful lengths of time that projects keep going on for, there is massive encroachment on main roads everywhere, the cops are corrupt, and will not implement rules, the PUC is not implemented, the construction is not regulated.
Stop me if you've heard ANY this for the first time.

Meantime, the government, "Yes yes, all true. However, what you should do, sir, is manage for a bit of time without a car, first. we will not listen to you when you talk work for us."
Was an opinion taken in this case?
I am not presenting an opinion. I am typing out the problems that ARE being faced, while the "do the least possible" option is IN force.

Who knows if this rule is the first step ans all above issues you mentioned are taken up in subsequent steps. We must put this up in all forums to ensure that our voices are heard and subsequent steps are surely taken.

Originally Posted by poloman

Please understand all data so far available indicate this step has not brought down the pollution levels. Are you confusing reducing congestion to reducing pollution? It is easier to talk about entitlement of middle class particularly when you are stationed in a foreign country. Compare the carbon footprint of a person in the country you are currently with a average joe in India. You will know the difference.
There is a good editorial in TOI today. They are advocating to scrap this ASAP.

Why do we expect the results in a day or two? Let us wait till Jan 15 and see how it performs.

I think reduced congestion will bring down pollution. Don't you think 20% of cars off the road will have some impact in pollution? Aren't they linked?
TOI will advocate scrapping of anything and everything ever proposed by any government. It is pure masala newspaper with little credibility. I take it purely for entertainment purposes.

[lordvader]

One good initiative that the current government started was to allow autos to ply freely from Delhi to NCR. They gave out permits to several autos in Delhi and then there was some noise around whether to allow autos from UP to ply in Delhi or not. It seems Delhi auto wallahs were not so keen on the idea. I guess post which the whole initiative has been put on the back burner. If implemented successfully, it would have definitely reduced the load on metro. Anyways, small changes like this can go a long way in reducing the number of private vehicles on the road.

Moreover, going to Noida or Ghaziabad using public transport is itself a huge task, what with the number of times you have to change autos and the fare rising by almost 100% within a few metres.

I, for one, have used carpool, autos, metros and office cabs for almost 4-5 years to commute to office. It is only now that the current office is poorly connected in terms of public transport that I had to buy a car. I'm not in favor of the odd-even scheme, but I strongly feel that going forth we should proactively look to carpool, as much as possible to at least do our part as responsible citizens.

[rdhawan15]

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

I think reduced congestion will bring down pollution. Don't you think 20% of cars off the road will have some impact in pollution? Aren't they linked?
TOI will advocate scrapping of anything and everything ever proposed by any government. It is pure masala newspaper with little credibility. I take it purely for entertainment purposes.

Reducing congestion can be achieved through multiple alternate ways. Impact on pollution control or reduction can be gauged in 15 days time when this study ends.

I believe the next steps towards reducing pollution in Delhi must focus on catering to the primary pollutants such as dust and ill-maintained commercial and private vehicles.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

I think reduced congestion will bring down pollution. Don't you think 20% of cars off the road will have some impact in pollution? Aren't they linked?
TOI will advocate scrapping of anything and everything ever proposed by any government. It is pure masala newspaper with little credibility. I take it purely for entertainment purposes.

The check posts are causing so much congestion that there are km long jams at many places. I guess, idling cars somehow eat pollution?

[invincible7]

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

Taxi isn't cost effective for long, as you say, but a car owner can use it for 5 working days.
You made a choice to work late in the office but the next day is your day and your time as it works on alternate days.
We will no by the end of 15 days where is it leading to. It may prove to be complete waste or it may give some positive results. Either way it is worth trying at a cost of 5 working days' inconvenience.

Easier said than done, the cost of using a taxi per day for me came out to be 1200-1300, I don't think its feasible for me to spend that kind of money for 5 days - if I use my car I wont be spending this much on fuel in 5 days. Work depends on day to day as per business requirements so for more dynamic roles one needs to work with clients accordingly - we are not fortunate to keep altering our work timings based on how the government policies come up, at least not in my organization currently. So today I may not have work and still I will be in office for more than 12 hours and when I reach home I will end up my day in 15-16 hours including the commutation time, next day I will have work and I would still need to be in office on time. As I said its easier than done for a lot of people, I am all in game for better policies to curb the pollution & traffic problems in the city but then I would say lets be more logical in coming up with solutions, most of Delhi NCR works in private jobs in Noida/Gurgaon and if you have to travel multiple times in the day due to work requirement it becomes difficult to use public transport. This is how I feel and I am happy for the ones who are able to do this and I appreciate their efforts.

[sourabhzen]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

The check posts are causing so much congestion that there are km long jams at many places. I guess, idling cars somehow eat pollution?

That is ridiculous because Delhi Police assured in the beginning that they will not put barricades to check odd-even violation.

@ invincible7 - how far is your office. Mine is 40 kms and I am paying max 600 per day. That multiplied by 5 comes out to 3 grands. I would have spent 1 grand in my own car so effectively additional expense of 2000 only (at max). I am doing it and hence saying it.

What better policies could you have suggested for these winters?

[hybridpetrol]

Latest news flash says that HC has asked the Delhi Government whether one week was not enough to curb the pollution, and why do they need to continue this for second week. Also the Delhi Government was asked to share the data of the past week.
The long story going to be cut too soon?

[rdhawan15]

Well, the Delhi High Court has take cognizance of the reported inconvenience being caused to the public, especially at Delhi borders. It has asked the Government to ease restrictions and/or end the test on 8th January.

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/india/on...t-1186026.html

If only our politicians could have showed some thinking or foresight before coming up with measures that are half-baked and produce zero results, this country would have been a different place to live-in.

[rdhawan15]

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

What better policies could you have suggested for these winters?

a) Encourage farmers from Punjab and Haryana to stop crop-residue burning.

b) Remove dust from roads.

c) Lay permanent tiles on road-sides and plant grass and trees in open grounds to ensure there is no loose mud that could clog the air.

d) Put an interim stop on sweeping the roads during winters; instead make use of alternate mechanisms to clear the dust and dirt off roads.

e) Give a timeline to industries/residential societies to move away from diesel generators to a greener solution. Whether there is a greener alternative as of now is something that is debatable.

f) Check DIESEL ADULTERATION. Make sure the people who sell adulterated diesel are penalized heavily so that there is a deterrent to this malpractice.

g) Improve public transport infrastructure on the primary routes and increase transport worthiness on the last mile.

If the Government is serious about checking pollution in Delhi, it knows what needs to be done. Remember, it has much more visibility in terms of data than you or me could ever have.

Brownie-points is all that it is trying to make for now.

[sourabhzen]

Originally Posted by rdhawan15

a) Encourage farmers from Punjab and Haryana to stop crop-residue burning.

b) Remove dust from roads.

c) Lay permanent tiles on road-sides and plant grass and trees in open grounds to ensure there is no loose mud that could clog the air.

d) Put an interim stop on sweeping the roads during winters; instead make use of alternate mechanisms to clear the dust and dirt off roads.

e) Give a timeline to industries/residential societies to move away from diesel generators to a greener solution. Whether there is a greener alternative as of now is something that is debatable.

f) Check DIESEL ADULTERATION. Make sure the people who sell adulterated diesel are penalized heavily so that there is a deterrent to this malpractice.

g) Improve public transport infrastructure on the primary routes and increase transport worthiness on the last mile.

If the Government is serious about checking pollution in Delhi, it knows what needs to be done. Remember, it has much more visibility in terms of data than you or me could ever have.

Brownie-points is all that it is trying to make for now.

1. All governments have already appealed to these farmers to stop burning. Need proper enforcement and cooperation from all agencies, which is lacking due to different governing bodies
2. Vacuum cleaners will be operational from April, as per their promise.
3. Time consuming job, but needs to start ASAP. Also, all the digging done by government bodies should follow norms to stop dust - not happening.
4. Vacuum cleaners only alternative. Stopping sweeping will create another monster to handle now.
5. Diesel gensets can stop only if there is 100% power supply. Not happening in near future
6. Diesel Adulteration will reduce considerably once Kerosene subsidy stops in April
7. MOST IMPORTANT but will take considerable time and genuine efforts and cooperation by Center as well as State Governments. Will take time, if at all this happen.

I sincerely hope that the governments will take up all of this as pollution situation is really really bad. Initially our governments refused to accept the fact that Delhi is a pollution nightmare. Now they have recognized the problem at least.

[rdhawan15]

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

I sincerely hope that the governments will take up all of this as pollution situation is really really bad. Initially our governments refused to accept the fact that Delhi is a pollution nightmare. Now they have recognized the problem at least.

So, you see that recognizing the problem is first step towards its resolution. For a problem of such gigantic proportions, how could we get to a sustainable solution with a solution that is ill-conceived?

Being a democracy, we need to involve all the stakeholders in this exercise. The public needs to be taken into confidence and rather than giving them a 3 weeks notice, the Government could have done well in creating a blueprint on how it wants to address the issue.

In any case, we will have results of the study soon. My hunch is that Kejriwal will claim victory of some sorts (reduced congestion) and try to pin the blame of pollution on weather conditions during the winter months. We already see some newspapers building a ground for this.

And, as a citizen of Delhi, I have faith in the judiciary that they will eventually come to the aid of the aggrieved, tax-paying, and non-vote-banked middle-class of Delhi.

[sourabhzen]

Originally Posted by rdhawan15

So, you see that recognizing the problem is first step towards its resolution. For a problem of such gigantic proportions, how could we get to a sustainable solution with a solution that is ill-conceived?

Being a democracy, we need to involve all the stakeholders in this exercise. The public needs to be taken into confidence and rather than giving them a 3 weeks notice, the Government could have done well in creating a blueprint on how it wants to address the issue.

In any case, we will have results of the study soon. My hunch is that Kejriwal will claim victory of some sorts (reduced congestion) and try to pin the blame of pollution on weather conditions during the winter months. We already see some newspapers building a ground for this.

And, as a citizen of Delhi, I have faith in the judiciary that they will eventually come to the aid of the aggrieved, tax-paying, and non-vote-banked middle-class of Delhi.

Let it be ill conceived, but it is the first step towards a solution.
By taking all stakeholders in confidence is a myth in democracy, The functioning of parliament in past one year is classic example of how things get stuck in a democracy.
3 weeks notice for a 15 day exercise which effectively troubles you only for 5-6 days is good enough IMO. SC banned the registration of 2000cc Diesel vehicles with immediate effect.
There was no time for blueprint as winters were approaching and you and I very well know how it treats us with smog and pollution. luckily this time the temperatures are not so low. But at the same time, I hope they prepare a proper blueprint for times to come.
Why does it bothers us if someone claims a victory or not? He made an effort, now let him claim whatever he wants to. Does it have any impact on our lives?
As far as judiciary is concerned, I am sure they will get tired very soon by doing what governments are supposed to do. For past many years the judiciary is saving us citizens from our own governments. I think it all started when SC banned Diesel buses and Blue lines in Delhi in early 2000s. They are trying to save forests and clean air while governments are trying to reduce the forest and pollute the air in the name of development. In reality its the politicians' own development.

Lastly, I hope all this will lead to actual planning and implementation of pollution control measures. Some of the measures may hit us but that is the way things work here.