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Old 21st May 2019, 14:51   #1
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Default Busting the myth of BSVI compliant engines in India

The hot topic in the automobile space nowadays seems to be the announcements by various manufacturers about launching and selling 'BSVI / BS6 compliant' models of cars. Yet, these 'BSVI compliant' cars are being registered as BSIV cars at the various RTOs, with the owner's official documents mentioning nowhere about the 'BSVI compliance' of these vehicles.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...hed-india.html (BS6-compliant Mercedes E-Class launched in India)

Maruti Baleno Gets Maruti’s First BS6 Compliant Engine – Launch Price 5.58 L

However, we are very clear about the fact that Euro-6 emission standards, (which BSVI is said to be replicating with some 'minor' adaptations to Indian conditions) cannot be achieved without using Euro-6 / BSVI quality fuels. In fact, vehicles with more stringent emission standards just cannot/do not run on fuels which do not comply with such standards, without actually making the emission levels go haywire.

So what is going on?

Likely interpretation:
Ever since the government's mandate came into being that BSVI vehicles must also be able to run on BSIV fuel (Government mandates that BS6 compliant vehicles should be able to run on BS4 fuel too), auto manufacturers are bringing in Euro-6 engines, tweaking the ECM and after-treatment devices to handle the poorer quality fuel, and releasing these vehicles into the market as a long-term experimental test bench (while we, the customer, are the guinea pigs of this experiment - and pay for it too!).

In less than a year's time, the manufacturers would be able to gather enough real-world data about the performance and issues/problems of a few thousand BSVI vehicles running on BSIV fuels, and then be able to:

a. Argue with the government about the non-feasibility of running BSVI/Euro-6 vehicles with BSIV fuels (and thus postpone the BSVI introduction date);

b. Get the government and regulatory bodies to compromise on the proposed BSVI emission standards;

c. Ignore / lie /cheat about the fact that a BSVI vehicle in regular use with BSIV fuels is polluting more than the government-specified BSVI emission standards;

d. Put in India-specific engine components / emission control devices which are not going to be fouled by poorer quality fuels.

Since there is no clarity as yet as to what the final rollout of BSVI norms & fuels would be like (restricted to a few Tier-I cities, or pan-India), we as car buyers and owners can only speculate about the various measures being taken by the government and automobile manufacturers to save money, make more money from customers, and work around the SC orders relating to BSVI rollout. Members are requested to pour in with their findings & opinions about what exactly one would be buying if choosing a 'BSVI compliant' vehicle which has no official paperwork supporting the fact that it is indeed so.

Last edited by SS-Traveller : 21st May 2019 at 14:53.
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Old 21st May 2019, 16:10   #2
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Default re: Busting the myth of BSVI compliant engines in India

Having bought cars in 90s and early 2000s (when BS emission standards were under first phase of implementation), I can see that two things which emerged in the transition - (1) Carburettor to EFI and (2) Cat convertor in exhaust. Both were designed to reduce emission.

As of now the only development which I have understood is related to diesel engines - the exhaust is to be routed through a tank containing a fluid to control / contain the emissions, and keep it at BSVI standards (a MNC had invited several dealers to their factory to demonstrate this and my lube shop owner was one of those who was invited).

The other aspect of BS standards was the elimination of lead in petrol (remember 'unleaded'?). I am told that the full benefit of BSVI (or Euro VI) standards will be realised only if the fuel quality matches the engine requirements. So as BSVI compliant vehicle running on BSIV fuel appears to be a paradox - atleast to me
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Old 21st May 2019, 16:29   #3
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Default re: Busting the myth of BSVI compliant engines in India

I think we should not postpone the BS6 implementation timelines and try to add the fuel element to the list of changes.

The planet doesnt have the time to keep postponing such initiatives!

In fact, there needs to be additional initiatives like
- Mandatory chargers in all commercial buildings for EVs
- Spot PUC Checks at naka bandis (You cant imagine the amount of pollution, some of the cars and autos create, especially the MJD in poor maintained condition)
- EV Subsidies for manufacturers (2W & 4W)
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Old 21st May 2019, 16:41   #4
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Default re: Busting the myth of BSVI compliant engines in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
However, we are very clear about the fact that Euro-6 emission standards, (which BSVI is said to be replicating with some 'minor' adaptations to Indian conditions) cannot be achieved without using Euro-6 / BSVI quality fuels. In fact, vehicles with more stringent emission standards just cannot/do not run on fuels which do not comply with such standards, without actually making the emission levels go haywire.
Mercedes recently updated the engines on the S Class. They had tom tommed in a big way that the new engines were BS6 compliant and that this was the first BS6 car to be sold in the Indian market. And this was in our regular BS4 fuel. What gives?
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Old 21st May 2019, 16:50   #5
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Default re: Busting the myth of BSVI compliant engines in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Members are requested to pour in with their findings & opinions about what exactly one would be buying if choosing a 'BSVI compliant' vehicle which has no official paperwork supporting the fact that it is indeed so.
In my opinion, as of now these "BSVI Complaint" vehicles are the ones which meet the applicable BSVI emission norms as tested by its manufacturer. They may not have have been "BSVI Certified" by ARAI/Competent Agency and hence no official paperwork supporting the fact.

In coming months we may see few more models being advertised as "BSVI Complaint" to keep the inventory moving.
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Old 21st May 2019, 16:53   #6
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Default re: Busting the myth of BSVI compliant engines in India

13 cities in India are already getting BS VI diesel. If you know any pump owners you can see the Invoices they get. As on First April, Mumbai, Delhi, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Kolkatta, Chennai, Ahmedabad, Surat, Pune, Solapur, Mangalore and two other cities had shifted over.
Pune is still erratic, the Pump I regularly fill up at needs about 50 tanker loads a month, and they received 46 BS VI and 4 BS IV tankers.
As per pump owners refiners are slowly shifting over, and cities where it is not compulsory (first 6 in the list) may or may not get the BS VI fuel.


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Old 21st May 2019, 16:59   #7
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Default re: Busting the myth of BSVI compliant engines in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain View Post
Mercedes recently updated the engines on the S Class. They had tom tommed in a big way that the new engines were BS6 compliant and that this was the first BS6 car to be sold in the Indian market. And this was in our regular BS4 fuel. What gives?
Cross-quoting from a different thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by sukarsan View Post
No, Adblue is only for trucks and large diesels . This is the SCR technology route.

There is an alternate called the Lean nox catalyst approach which will be used for almost all pass cars.( <2L)

This paper gives a good deepdive on the different technologies.
The S-Class is using the Ad-blu way to treat the emissions. This approach may be more tolerant to the inferior fuel (read BSIV) and still meet the BSVI emission norms. Our TATA, Ashok Leyland City Buses have already been using the Ad-blu additive to meet the current emission norms in India. Not sure about the Volvo fleet though.
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Old 21st May 2019, 17:25   #8
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Default re: Busting the myth of BSVI compliant engines in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by beast_within View Post
Cross-quoting from a different thread



The S-Class is using the Ad-blu way to treat the emissions. This approach may be more tolerant to the inferior fuel (read BSIV) and still meet the BSVI emission norms. Our TATA, Ashok Leyland City Buses have already been using the Ad-blu additive to meet the current emission norms in India. Not sure about the Volvo fleet though.
My point is, Mercedes has demonstrated that it is possible to have BS6 complaint engines running on BS4 fuel. They recently updated the E Class to BS6 as well. If they are able to do this while providing full warranty coverage, that to my limited knowledge kind of negates the premise made by the opening post of this thread.

If Adblue is so effective and is successfully deployed in busses which do enormous milage, perhaps other manufacturers quickly should also use this technology. BS2 made unleaded petrol and electronic fuel injection ubiquitous. Perhaps BS6 will do the same to Adblue
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Old 21st May 2019, 17:35   #9
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Default re: Busting the myth of BSVI compliant engines in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
Since there is no clarity as yet as to what the final rollout of BSVI norms & fuels would be like (restricted to a few Tier-I cities, or pan-India), we as car buyers and owners can only speculate about the various measures being taken by the government and automobile manufacturers to save money, make more money from customers, and work around the SC orders relating to BSVI rollout. Members are requested to pour in with their findings & opinions about what exactly one would be buying if choosing a 'BSVI compliant' vehicle which has no official paperwork supporting the fact that it is indeed so.
Actually, unlike never before , there is a clear cut roadmap for implementation of BSVI. This was announced in end 2015 and has been on track ever since. Everyone( but for Maruti) is ready for the launch with a defined strategy. There is no phase wise roll out. Period.

The emission standards are independent of the fuels. BS6 fuel mainly focused on Sulphur , which affects the components in the after treatment system. The linked paper can give more details on this topic.

Coming to the Maruti statement: Its a BS6 compliant engine, not a vehicle. 99% of changes from BS4 to BS6 will be on the after treatment side. . The vehicle meets BS4 only and its a marketing ploy from Maruti.

S Class of course will have a certificate for Euro 6 , which gives them all the right to claim that they can meet BS6. But running on a BS4 fuel may damage the after treatment system, but since its a merc it will be over engineered anyway.

Hope this clarifies your concerns and answers most of your queries.
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Old 21st May 2019, 17:35   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain View Post
If Adblue is so effective and is successfully deployed in busses which do enormous milage, perhaps other manufacturers quickly should also use this technology. BS2 made unleaded petrol and electronic fuel injection ubiquitous. Perhaps BS6 will do the same to Adblue
Again with my limited knowledge, there are multiple factors which a manufacturer considers while selecting the emission control technology. From what I could gather from the document quoted earlier, Adblue is the most complex among the three options and and would require more frequent service intervals. Implementing this in the engines < 2L will not be viable option. Also, as per the current speculations 1.3 MJD shall be discontinued and mostly 1.5 L diesels shall prevail post April 2020.

Gurus on the forum can enlighten on the impacts on the Petrol engines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sukarsan View Post
S Class of course will have a certificate for Euro 6 , which gives them all the right to claim that they can meet BS6. But running on a BS4 fuel may damage the after treatment system, but since its a merc it will be over engineered anyway.
But for all legal purposes the S-Class will be treated as a BSIV vehicle before April 2020.
This is the an area of concern, where we may see more arbitrary restrictions coming on BSIV registered vehicles in near future (especially in NCR and metros), irrespective of how well they are maintained or how over-engineered.

Last edited by ajmat : 21st May 2019 at 17:51. Reason: as per reported post
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Old 21st May 2019, 20:29   #11
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Default re: Busting the myth of BSVI compliant engines in India

Quote:
Originally Posted by vrprabhu View Post
So as BSVI compliant vehicle running on BSIV fuel appears to be a paradox - atleast to me
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain View Post
...the first BS6 car to be sold in the Indian market. And this was in our regular BS4 fuel. What gives?
Quote:
Originally Posted by beast_within View Post
..."BSVI Complaint" vehicles are the ones which meet the applicable BSVI emission norms as tested by its manufacturer. They may not have have been "BSVI Certified" by ARAI/Competent Agency and hence no official paperwork supporting the fact.

In coming months we may see few more models being advertised as "BSVI Complaint" to keep the inventory moving.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beast_within View Post
...for all legal purposes the S-Class will be treated as a BSIV vehicle before April 2020.
This is the an area of concern, where we may see more arbitrary restrictions coming on BSIV registered vehicles in near future (especially in NCR and metros), irrespective of how well they are maintained or how over-engineered.
These are the exact points this thread seeks to highlight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahul Rao View Post
13 cities in India are already getting BS VI diesel. If you know any pump owners you can see the Invoices they get.
...
Pune is still erratic, the Pump I regularly fill up at needs about 50 tanker loads a month, and they received 46 BS VI and 4 BS IV tankers.
BSIV and BSVI fuels go into the same underground storage tanks. So are we pumping out BSV fuels into our vehicles' tanks?
Quote:
Originally Posted by beast_within View Post
The S-Class is using the Ad-blu way to treat the emissions. This approach may be more tolerant to the inferior fuel (read BSIV) and still meet the BSVI emission norms. Our TATA, Ashok Leyland City Buses have already been using the Ad-blu additive to meet the current emission norms in India. Not sure about the Volvo fleet though.
Not quite AdBlue, but a generic version of it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Traveller View Post
AdBlue, generically called Diesel Exhaust Fluid, is already available in India. Spotted this at the Reliance fuel station on the ALE in March this year.

Attachment 1877731
Attachment 1877730

Theoretically, this can certainly be used in a Mercedes diesel as well as in a Tata diesel engine. But whether Mercedes owners would want to, is a different question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sukarsan View Post
Actually, unlike never before , there is a clear cut roadmap for implementation of BSVI. This was announced in end 2015 and has been on track ever since. Everyone( but for Maruti) is ready for the launch with a defined strategy. There is no phase wise roll out. Period.
True - the rollout is proposed to be pan-India - except that the government and MoRTH want BSVI cars to be able to run on BSIV fuels. This bit was not part of the initial roadmap. Obviously, someone figured out that providing BSVI fuels from 1/4/2020 to all pumps in India would be an impossibility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sukarsan View Post
The emission standards are independent of the fuels. BS6 fuel mainly focused on Sulphur , which affects the components in the after treatment system. The linked paper can give more details on this topic.
Nowhere in the paper you linked to does it say that BSIV fuels will do fine in BSVI engines and after-treatment devices. The comparison in the paper has been between BSVI and Euro-6 fuels. To quote from the paper...
Quote:
These modern engine designs require low sulfur fuels to maintain robust emissions performance throughout their useful lifetimes. It is due to this fact that the single most important fuel parameter specified in the proposed BS VI regulation is the 10 ppm limit on sulfur content of gasoline and diesel fuels. Access to ultra-low sulfur fuels enables the introduction of modern, low-emitting BS VI vehicles that incorporate best available technologies for the control of air pollutant emissions.

Relative to the exceedingly large emissions benefits that will result from the implementation of proposed BS VI emission standards in 2020, any change in air pollutant emissions resulting from differences between BS VI and Euro 6/VI fuel specifications is likely to be minimal. By 2023-2025 timeframe, India should try to match, or even improve upon, Euro 6/VI fuel specifications.
And BSIV fuels contain how many ppm of sulphur? As an engine designer, it is not expected of you to be feeding misinformation to the ignorant reader of this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sukarsan View Post
Coming to the Maruti statement: Its a BS6 compliant engine, not a vehicle. 99% of changes from BS4 to BS6 will be on the after treatment side. . The vehicle meets BS4 only and its a marketing ploy from Maruti.
The title of the thread says exactly the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sukarsan View Post
S Class of course will have a certificate for Euro 6 , which gives them all the right to claim that they can meet BS6. But running on a BS4 fuel may damage the after treatment system, but since its a merc it will be over engineered anyway.
Well, legally, they cannot, even if it is a CBU imported from Europe - because it is registered as a BSIV vehicle, and there is no documentary evidence to prove otherwise, except the company's own say-so. As to the over-engineering of the car's after treatment devices, would you kindly clarify from an engineering point of view, how exactly the system would avoid being poisoned by a surplus of sulphur in the fuel that the engine consumes?
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Old 22nd May 2019, 10:17   #12
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Default re: Busting the myth of BSVI compliant engines in India

The major change in BS VI Diesel is reduction of sulfur from 50 ppm to 10 ppm. Everything else is the same. Now what will the additional sulfur in the diesel do if it is used in BS VI engine, it will destroy the CK4 rated oil that we are using with the BS VI engines.
What solution do we have for this, we need to Use a oil that is CK4 but backwardly compatible with CI4 and CJ4, and use a much shorter drain interval.
The solution to this is already in use. Most high end cars are recommending oil that is CK4 compliant, and also recommending a short drain interval.
CK4 is running with a 100 thousand mile or 150 thousand km drain interval in European trucks and buses. Volvo, Bharat Benz, Scania here recommend a 6 month 1 Lakh km interval.

Every company has tested it with minimum 40,000 km drain interval in diesel cars, but most are recommending a 10k, 15k or at the most 20k drain interval.
A year or two after BS VI is main stream the oil will still be CK4 but manufacturers will recommend a longer drain interval. Probably double the current one, this may not taper down to private cars, but remain restricted to bus and taxi fleet service recommendation.



Coming to DPF. The DPF needs to regenerate, that means the soot trapped in the filter has to burn out and clear the filter. This happens when you are running in low gear at moderate speed with light throttle input. Eg if you normally shift from 4 to 5 at 60 and 5 to 6 at 80, but if you are waiting for a chance to overtake, and are in 3rd at 60, or 4th at 80, your engine is spinning fast with turbo blowing good amount of air, but throttle is not pressed much, as you do not want the acceleration at that moment, but are prepared to floor when you see a gap, during this driving condition, the extra air in the hot exhaust is burning the soot in the filter and regenerating the DPF.
With a BS VI engine running on BS IV diesel the need for regeneration will be more frequent.


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Old 22nd May 2019, 12:41   #13
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Default re: Busting the myth of BSVI compliant engines in India

I try to explain this BSVI and BSIV in Indian context to my elders in simple language without getting into the technicalities:

Aim: To reduce NOx and Particulate emissions further. The upper limit of NOx is drastically low in Euro6 (hence BS6) compared to earlier norms.

Implications: Diesels produce more NOx and particulates compared to Petrol engines, hence they require more 'processing' for reducing the harmful effects of waste gases.

How is it achieved: In petrol engines, the aim is to effectively burn all the fuel that gets in the cylinder and then processing the waste gases. This is achieved using changes in ECU maps, fine tuning air:fuel ratios, turbocharging etc at combustion level and then using catalytic converters while throwing it out. As NOx levels are already very low in petrol engines, they don't have to do a lot to move to next level of emission norms. Also, particulates are not alarming (Petrol is called 'cleaner fuel' for this reason)

In Diesels, the NOx levels are pretty high and manipulating combustion characteristics can give different NOx levels at different times, it is a little tricky to achieve that in real world conditions. This is where VW dieselgate happened. So Diesel engines required a lot of modifications and waste gases treatment mechanisms (Mixing NOx with Urea to get water and Nitrogen gas)
The diesel particulate filter further helps in reducing particulate waste.

Fuel quality also has to be improved in order to achieve the above two. This is the pain point currently.

How does it affect car drivers : For one, cost of making engines increases, more in case of diesel engines as the migration requires further complex additions. Petrol engines' cost might remain the same for most part, or might increase a little (in case of two wheelers, they will have to move to fuel injection tech eventually).

Now coming to the actual implementation in case of India, the ministry has committed that they will provide BS6 compliant fuel from April 2020.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/65708845.cms

But the concern is if we don't get the right fuel for those new engines, they might create a problem and as always, car buyers will be the one who lose. So it will be interesting to see if we really get BSVI compliant fuel in the near future, till that time, I think all companies are going to market their cars as 'BSVI ready'

Adding further to the mess is government asking manufacturers to make engines backward compatible : Running on both BS4 and BS6 fuels. This in my opinion is plain stupid. Its like asking Tesla to make cars that should also run on Lead-Acid and Nickel Cadmium batteries along with the latest Lithium ones. Don't think anyone would invest in temporary solutions like these unless there is a very high demand or no alternative but to fall in line. I think that example is Mercedes S class. Others who can afford will follow.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 14:07   #14
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Default re: Busting the myth of BSVI compliant engines in India

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Not sure about the Volvo fleet though.
Volvo & Daimler too uses SCR in its buses and trucks extensively.
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Old 22nd May 2019, 16:03   #15
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Default re: Busting the myth of BSVI compliant engines in India

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Originally Posted by gauravanekar View Post
Volvo & Daimler too uses SCR in its buses and trucks extensively.
Adding couple of pics:

Busting the myth of BSVI compliant engines in India-img20190520wa0010.jpg

Busting the myth of BSVI compliant engines in India-img20190520wa0009.jpg
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