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Old 30th December 2019, 19:44   #1
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Default Serious gearbox issue in my Kia Seltos DCT

I have been having a DCT issue for past few weeks. My car had this for three times in the past one month. The gear ratio gets stuck in D2 without upshifting when in normal mode. Initially, it failed to shift at all. For the last couple of times D2 shifts to D4 after revving to 3.5k RPM. Does not go through D3. Shifts back to D2 from D4 on slowing down. Does not shift down to D1.

The whole thing comes back to normal after restarting the car. This time I have taken a video of gears shifting from D2 to D4 without going through D3. Had shown to the service center. They checked it and said that it was a niggle with the code that prevents the odd gear-actuator from activating 1, 3 and 5 gears. They said that they have refreshed it and did not see any error on diagnostics. They asked me to get a video so that Kia can be contacted and a solution can be had. I have to take the car to the service station tomorrow.

Requesting tbhp expert opinion on this issue. How should I take it up with Kia?

The video url from youtube is given below

Expecting responses from technical experts
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Old 30th December 2019, 20:08   #2
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Default Re: Dct Issue Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandygordon View Post
I have been having a DCT issue for past few weeks. My car had this for three times in the past one month.
Hi, sorry to say this but this seems to be a serious problem with your gearbox and is putting unnecessary strain on the engine and gearbox itself by skipping the odd gears. I will recommend you not drive it at all except to the service station (hopefully not too far away). I would go so far as to say the vehicle may be a handful to control if the gears change erratically and catches you unawares. Please take care and ideally a flatbed should be used if you can.

If this purely a software issue, it is much easier and can be reflashed or the ECU fully replaced. If a hardware issue, it is probably crucial actuators / sensors in the 'Mechatronics' (a dreaded term known to Skoda owners of which I am one), i.e. the electro-mechanical brain of the DCT is malfunctioning.

Do post the outcome later.

Last edited by itwasntme : 30th December 2019 at 20:09.
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Old 30th December 2019, 22:31   #3
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Default Re: Dct Issue Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandygordon View Post
I For the last couple of times D2 shifts to D4 after revving to 3.5k RPM. Does not go through D3. Shifts back to D2 from D4 on slowing down. Does not shift down to D1.
DCTs are not designed to skip 1 gear on upshifts, as the two clutches operate on consecutive gears (Clutch A for 1,3,5,7 & Clutch B on 2,4,6,R). To go from 2nd to 3rd, Clutch B would be released while clutch A would be simultaneously engaged, and for going from 3->4, Clutch A would be released and Clutch B would be engaged.

So for the gearbox to go from 2 to 4 directly makes no sense at all, as it'd require the same clutch B to be released, the new gear to be selected and then clutch B to be engaged again, just like a manual, resulting in a very slow shift. In fact, if it wanted to, it could go from 2->5 easily without any issue, but usually they won't skip 2 gears like that while upshifting.

Summary - serious issue, please follow up with Kia diligently. Also, don't fall for the "We will update the SW and this will be fixed" gospel unless you see a technical service bulletin from Kia about this exact behavior, as this may well be an actual mechanical / electrical issue.

Last edited by d3mon : 30th December 2019 at 22:32.
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Old 31st December 2019, 08:21   #4
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandygordon View Post
I have been having a DCT issue for past few weeks. My car had this for three times in the past one month. The gear ratio gets stuck in D2 without upshifting when in normal mode. Initially, it failed to shift at all. For the last couple of times D2 shifts to D4 after revving to 3.5k RPM. Does not go through D3. Shifts back to D2 from D4 on slowing down. Does not shift down to D1.

The whole thing comes back to normal after restarting the car..
Hi Sandy - Sorry to hear your ordeal with your car and I hope it is a simple software glitch.

I guess the DCT has a manual shift option as well. Did you try to shift to the odd gears manually? Was wondering how the gearbox behaved from there. As in, did it shift to even gears immediately or did it shift per the rpm or did it keep shifting to odd gears only?

Also, how is the reverse working?? If Im not wrong, the same clutch and actuator controls the reverse as well.

Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 31st December 2019 at 14:32. Reason: Trimmed quote. Removed video URL within quotes.
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Old 31st December 2019, 14:22   #5
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Default Re: Dct Issue Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandygordon View Post
The gear ratio gets stuck in D2 without upshifting when in normal mode. Initially, it failed to shift at all. For the last couple of times D2 shifts to D4 after revving to 3.5k RPM. Does not go through D3. Shifts back to D2 from D4 on slowing down. Does not shift down to D1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by d3mon View Post
Summary - serious issue, please follow up with Kia diligently. Also, don't fall for the "We will update the SW and this will be fixed" gospel unless you see a technical service bulletin from Kia about this exact behavior, as this may well be an actual mechanical / electrical issue.
There's a recall in Korea for the exact problem, which is that "Some DCT models are suffering an issue that only drives with 2nd, 4th, 6th gear. 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th gears are not working."

The actual recall notice is in Korean, but some quick Google Translation-fu reveals that the reason for the failure is mechanical.

"Burr removal in 387 speed hub manufacturing process is insufficient"

https://thekoreancarblog.com/2019/10...n-south-korea/

It's unfortunate that they have not been able to iron out (pun intended) this issue before the India launch.

Please insist on a full gearbox replacement as Kia know it's a manufacturing defect, and that's the process they are following in Korea.
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Serious gearbox issue in my Kia Seltos DCT-screenshot_20191231141333.jpg  

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Old 31st December 2019, 15:44   #6
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Default Re: Dct Issue Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandygordon View Post
I have been having a DCT issue for past few weeks.
Requesting tbhp expert opinion on this issue. How should I take it up with Kia?
Definitely make a big fuss about it with Kia. Like all other dual clutch gearboxes, this one also has some history of issues worldwide. The symptoms seem to be very similar to the typical DSG issues that Volkswagen/Skoda folks usually report whose root cause had typically been a mechatronics issue.

It may end up being something small, but worth to make a noise about it till you are satisfied with the resolution.
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Old 31st December 2019, 19:22   #7
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Default Dct Issue

As expected, got a luke warm response from the service team at Edapally

I insisted to speak to the regional service manager at Incheon Kia Cochin

They said they have updated the software as per direction from Kia
They had no answers for my questions

The service manager said that he would look into it and will have a discussion with the service people at Kia HQ. He said he would positively contact me tomorrow with the feedback

They did not give a contact at Kia HQ with whom I can correspond regarding the issue

They asked me to bring the car to the service center when the problem crops up. The technical expert would like to study the issue when it crops up. When the Korean issue was shown they were not diligent to read it or think about it.

Probably they want my car on a flatbed to look into the issue and discuss about it.

To my surprise, the software update has deleted the transmission temperature display. Kudos to Kia for solving all the DCT heating issues.

Whom should I contact in KIA? Anyone have contacts (emails, ph numbers) to whom I can notify the issue?

Glad that I did not sell my Hippo (S Cross)

Last edited by suhaas307 : 28th February 2020 at 11:03. Reason: Spacing for improved readability
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Old 31st December 2019, 20:16   #8
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Default Re: Dct Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandygordon View Post

Whom should I contact in KIA? Anyone have contacts (emails, ph numbers) to whom I can notify the issue?
Glad that I did not sell my Hippo (S Cross)
Post it on their Facebook page.

Please do mention the people with their names. Let us then see how good is their customer care.

I don't expect any of the customer care executives or even the technicians to be of much help. Because I'm sure they don't know what is happening.

Post on the Facebook page of Kia seltos.

Last edited by BlackPearl : 31st December 2019 at 21:06. Reason: Trimmed the post within quotes for better readability. Thanks.
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Old 1st January 2020, 06:58   #9
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Default Re: Dct Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandygordon View Post
They had no answers for my questions...

Whom should I contact in KIA? Anyone have contacts (emails, ph numbers) to whom I can notify the issue?
Glad that I did not sell my Hippo (S Cross)
Whenever a new manufacturer sets up shop expect this sort of confusion / customer experience. The technicians would be clueless in areas where there is relatively new tech involved - not that DCT is new but in this case Kia and the DCT is new for India.

Additionally, do not expect the factory personnel in India to be clued up either because for now it is screwdriver technology. There would not be much point in calling or speaking to anyone in the factory for sometime as they are busy ramping up manufacturing capacity and setting up half baked dealerships that can sell but handle routine service ONLY. As suggested you could post on their Facebook page and you should get a response but expect a delay for the resolution of your problem until Kia takes a decision (possibly from Global HQ) to extend the same resolution as suggested in the Korean Advisory for India.

Right now you are (unfortunately so) one of the unwitting Guinea pigs and this is why it is really NOT advisable to go in for a combination of NEW manufacturer / NEW technology / UNTRAINED service outlets.

For now I would suggest the following:

1. If they have updated the software, use the car till the problem occurs again.

2. If it recurs, report it as advised by them and ask what needs to be done - don't expect a clear answer as they would be completely clueless as of now. They can only act as a post office to the factory and will carry out instructions after receiving them. The instructions from the India factory would also be a half baked solution for now.

3. Report the missing temp indication but again, expect a delay in its resolution.

4. As of now internally manage your own expectations of service quality given the ground reality, expect delays in resolution of problems. Hang onto the S cross for some time until there is more clarity on the way forward.

----------------------

On another note, I usually don't expect sales personnel to be clued up technically but this team leader was exceptional - "Sir, Adblue is old technology. We don't need Adblue in the Seltos because the carburettors in our Diesel engines have the latest technology". When they are so far gone you don't bother to correct them.

I just nodded my head and said "Ok."

Last edited by AMG Power : 1st January 2020 at 07:23.
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Old 1st January 2020, 09:32   #10
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Default Re: Dct Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandygordon View Post
Whom should I contact in KIA? Anyone have contacts (emails, ph numbers) to whom I can notify the issue?
Glad that I did not sell my Hippo (S Cross)
I wasn't satisfied with the knowledge of some dudes at the showroom.. Heck, they couldn't identify their diesel/petrol car even when I asked them to look at the RPM meter (just one of the many goof ups).

As for the contacts, I don't think posting on FB will make any difference. Of course, public will know but will soon die off. In all my previous experiences, a direct mail to the HQ and key contacts did the trick (I haven't mailed Hyundai regarding the Creta brake issue though). Try Linkedin messaging and an email finder tool to find emails of key contacts of KIA.
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Old 1st January 2020, 10:18   #11
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Default Re: Kia Seltos : Official Review

Anyways I am hoping for the best.

Have to keep a couple of flat bed truck numbers handy.

There has been a software update and ecu update.

The car is more torquey at lower rpms now. They turbo lag is well contained at lower gears. It is only between 40 to 60kmph in D4, a lag is noticed. Nothing that a shove at the pedal can't solve though.

Transmission temperature meter on the MID is missing since the update. Is it same for all? Are there any options to bring it back from menu?

Sad that Kia is resorting to such measures to "solve" the dct heating issue.

Anyways enjoying the drive despite all these headaches. Kia should ve ironed out all before launching such a good car.

Last edited by suhaas307 : 28th February 2020 at 11:03. Reason: Spacing for improved readability
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Old 1st January 2020, 12:52   #12
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Default Re: Dct Issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandygordon View Post
I have been having a DCT issue for past few weeks. The gear ratio gets stuck in D2 without upshifting when in normal mode. For the last couple of times D2 shifts to D4 after revving to 3.5k RPM. Does not go through D3. Shifts back to D2 from D4 on slowing down. Does not shift down to D1.
Had shown to the service center. They checked it and said that it was a niggle with the code that prevents the odd gear-actuator from activating 1, 3 and 5 gears.
This seems to be a serious issue, and surely not just a software niggle. Am hoping though, that it is, and can be curated accordingly.
I am not fully aware of how KIA has adopted the dual clutch technology for its gearboxes, but from my understanding of how VW uses this for its cars, the below diagram gives a fundamental explanation of the clutch actuators and how the entire assembly works:-

Name:  torque input output.jpeg
Views: 21278
Size:  229.2 KB

The clutch K1 assembly transfers the torque to drive shaft 1 (blue color), thereby transferring torque further for odd gears 1,3,5,7.
On the other hand, the clutch K2 assembly transfers the torque to drvie shaft 2 (green color), transferring torque for even gears 2,4,6 and R also.

If we correlate the above diagram functioning to what you are facing, then it probably looks like there is an isolated problem with the clutch assembly/drive shaft handling the torque for odd gears. Or it could also be a case of the mass flywheel not able to trigger the required torque for the odd-geared clutch assembly.
Either ways, it seems more of a mechanical rather than a software issue. However, it would be obviously good to get the experts (the real ones) from the KIA service center to validate the root cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itwasntme View Post
I will recommend you not drive it at all except to the service station (hopefully not too far away). Please take care and ideally a flatbed should be used if you can.
Totally agree. Please refrain from driving, lest the gearbox may get damaged beyond a point at which KIA may put the blame on you. I know this is probably an overreaction, but you don't know the level of idiosyncrasies around, especially in matters like these.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigkey View Post
I guess the DCT has a manual shift option as well. Did you try to shift to the odd gears manually? Was wondering how the gearbox behaved from there. As in, did it shift to even gears immediately or did it shift per the rpm or did it keep shifting to odd gears only?
Also, how is the reverse working?? If Im not wrong, the same clutch and actuator controls the reverse as well.
I also have the same queries sandy, have you tried shifting manually?

Quote:
Originally Posted by d3mon View Post
There's a recall in Korea for the exact problem.The actual recall notice is in Korean, but some quick Google Translation-fu reveals that the reason for the failure is mechanical.
Please insist on a full gearbox replacement as Kia know it's a manufacturing defect, and that's the process they are following in Korea
Indeed, replacement is the ideal decision. But if sandy's case is the first to be reported in India for this problem, then he might have to follow-up with KIA a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandygordon View Post
They said they have updated the software as per direction from Kia
Can you ask them for what exactly have they done in the software upgrade? I have a hunch they will not share easily, but no harm in trying to know what have they done specifically.

Quote:
To my surprise, the software update has deleted the transmission temperature display
This is nothing but a CRIME in my view, and you should call it out to them. Either the guys doing it have no idea what they are doing OR they are doing the deletion intentionally to not allow you to check the temperature gauge hereonwards, for fear that you will go back to them with more questions.

Whatever it is, please ask them to involve KIA India folks right away so that the entire episode is documented properly and investigated with your permission.

Trust me, in my experience of having driven a DSG Vento for 75k+km, the transmission temperature gauge is the one thing I probably miss the most in terms of critical features not provided by VW.

Since the Seltos has it, treat it like an extraordinary gift. Please do not let the service center idiots mess with that.

Last edited by suhaas307 : 28th February 2020 at 11:04. Reason: Minor spacing
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Old 1st January 2020, 16:16   #13
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Default Re: Kia Seltos : Official Review

I have tried shifting manually but the gear is stuck at D2. Manual shifting has no effect. It plays like a dummy switch. Tried braking to a halt but the car knocks and jerks forward. Was not confident to shift to reverse.

Last edited by sandygordon : 1st January 2020 at 16:31.
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Old 1st January 2020, 20:22   #14
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Default Re: Kia Seltos : Official Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandygordon View Post
I have tried shifting manually but the gear is stuck at D2. Manual shifting has no effect. It plays like a dummy switch. Tried braking to a halt but the car knocks and jerks forward. Was not confident to shift to reverse.
Please get this aspect also highlighted to the service centre guys immediately, if not done already.

Never heard that the manual stick has also failed to slot into all the gears.

As mentioned earlier by few of us, please refrain from driving further and get KIA to log this issue on priority.

On a related note, is anything mentioned in the owner's manual - for the DCT malfunction and potential resolution?
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Old 1st January 2020, 21:00   #15
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Default Re: Kia Seltos : Official Review

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Originally Posted by JoshMachine View Post
Please get this aspect also highlighted to the service centre guys immediately, if not done already.

Never heard that the manual stick has also failed to slot into all the gears
The manual stick is slotting with no change in gear on display and gearbox. Continues on D2.
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