[Hayek]

Let’s wait and see what the problem is. The car seems too new for a DCT failure. And when a major failure takes place after a service, it is quite possible something went wrong during the service. Let’s hope it is something simple which can be rectified through coding. I think the real challenge is that we don’t have adequately trained service technicians around / that seems to be a problem everywhere from Hyundai to VW and even the luxury brands. You can’t take a guy used to servicing Altos and put him in charge of diagnosing a complex car. Till manufacturers invest adequately in training service personnel, such problems will persist.

[audioholic]

If the DTC is believed to be exactly what is stated, then its time for a replacement ECU and the rest should be fine. Lockstep errors usually point to the ECU not being able to work reliably and would be a one-off incidence. This isnt related to the much common or probable issue with actuators of the transmission which can occur due to usage. But for the manufacturer, such errors must be escalated to their engineering team and some forensics collected to understand what actually caused this issue. Hence it would take some time. But as a solution, I think a new transmission controller is on the way if not for a software update. I would prefer the former.

Such things happen randomly and need not necessarily mean a widespread issue. Based on the evidence collected in this matter, I guess Hyundai would then understand why this would happen and then probably take corrective action. However,
1. I hope the car wasnt pressure washed during service which would have caused water seepage into the transmission
2. I hope there was no software update during service if that would have contained a bug.

[Leoshashi]

I'm hopeful they'll be able to get to the root cause here, Hyundai's attitude till now has been very positive. Hope they ensure it doesn't repeat in future as it can be agonizing for a new car owner.

Originally Posted by iamitp

I have also tweeted out this thread and tagged senior HMIL Management from Marketing and Customer service departments. Here's a link to the Tweet, I would appreciate it if you could amplify its reach by Retweeting.

https://twitter.com/iamitp/status/14...470013952?s=20

Did my bit of retweeting it.

Regards,
Shashi

[iamitp]

Latest update - Car is still being diagnosed by HASS. I got in touch with concerned Hyundai Area Manager and after speaking to him, the HASS has obliged my demand for a courtesy car with a Venue MT, which I had to agree to as an AT isn't available.

Will go ahead and email Hyundai management tomorrow unless the issue is diagnosed to be a minor fix by forenoon.

I have been very lucky to receive support from you, fellow BHPians, and good samaritans on Twitter. Was added to a Creta DCT Whatsapp group and FB group where I discovered that there are so many others facing this issue.

Originally Posted by kushagra452

I am in the market to replace my 15 year old Honda City and have shortlisted Hyundai Creta

I also replaced my City with the Creta. The City still serves me so wheel after all these years of abuse.

Originally Posted by Axe77

I think I would rather just pick diesel where they are simpler or more reliable and enjoy the better FE etc of such engines, being reconciled to selling it sooner.
Would rather err on the side of spending less rather than more if I need to be reconciled to changing my car sooner than I would have otherwise liked.

Also the thoughts going through my mind in retrospect. Had I not been living in NCR, I would have probably veered towards the Diesel-TC combo a lot more.

Originally Posted by SolidusSnake

On a related note, why DCT failures only in Creta and Seltos. Have not heard of any report of DCT failure in Venue, Sonet, i20 or verna despite them using presumably same 7 speed unit. Is it due to higher torque rating of 1.4 litre engine of Creta/ Seltos?

That is indeed an interesting point to ponder upon but the Venue is the only one which could have sold enough DCT numbers as of now to generate this issue.

Originally Posted by Hayek

Let’s wait and see what the problem is. The car seems too new for a DCT failure. And when a major failure takes place after a service, it is quite possible something went wrong during the service.

I am still hoping that this is indeed the case but the more 'DCT me too' stories I hear, the less hopeful I get.

Originally Posted by audioholic

If the DTC is believed to be exactly what is stated, then its time for a replacement ECU and the rest should be fine. Lockstep errors usually point to the ECU not being able to work reliably and would be a one-off incidence. This isnt related to the much common or probable issue with actuators of the transmission which can occur due to usage. But for the manufacturer, such errors must be escalated to their engineering team and some forensics collected to understand what actually caused this issue. Hence it would take some time. But as a solution, I think a new transmission controller is on the way if not for a software update. I would prefer the former.

Such things happen randomly and need not necessarily mean a widespread issue. Based on the evidence collected in this matter, I guess Hyundai would then understand why this would happen and then probably take corrective action. However,
1. I hope the car wasnt pressure washed during service which would have caused water seepage into the transmission
2. I hope there was no software update during service if that would have contained a bug.

Thanks for the insights.


1. I hope the car wasnt pressure washed during service which would have caused water seepage into the transmission - it was washed using an automated washing system at HASS which seemed to be pressured. The SA told be that the engine bay area was only lightly washed. However, I have got the car washed at detailing studios before without any issues.

2. I hope there was no software update during service if that would have contained a bug. - I did specifically ask if there were any software updates and the reply was in the negative from my SA

Originally Posted by Leoshashi

Did my bit of retweeting it.

Thanks Shashi, appreciate it. Every tweet helps.

[SolidusSnake]

Originally Posted by iamitp

Latest update - Car is still being diagnosed by HASS. .

You mentioned error code P060194, it is a limp home mode as per Hyundai Kia and solution is a software update. Even in @sandy.gordon case they applied software update but that proved to be a temporary fix . Refer below screenshot:

[rst89]

The ECU(Electronic control unit) has gone bad or the peripherals on the board are not communicating with the main chip on the ECU. ECU contains peripherals like EEPROM chips, high side and low side drivers, special chips which perform functionality of regulating power supply to the main chip.

For example, at start up you perform these type of tests quickly as you can't spend so much time doing safety checks when car is running. It reached a limp home mode when you restarted car which means fail safe condition worked as expected.

There are two types of memory on the ECU, internal Flash emulated as EEPROM on the chip or there are external EEPROM chips.

Now coming back to the error code, due to EMI disturbances or due to random HW failure, some bits in the internal memory of the chip would have got flipped. The check sum is generally last two bytes of a memory segment.

So when your ECU read back the memory, the calculated CRC is not equal to stored to stored CRC.

Other case is whether an EEPROM resides on the board and it communication happens through SPI(Serial peripheral interface). If the peripheral is not working good, then memory read operation has not been successful and you got the checksum error.

Solution: Re-flash the board or replace the board.

[iamitp]

Update - Was informed by HASS that the some part inside the gear actuator assembly has mechanically come loose (I could be misquoting him as I was finding it a bit difficult to follow). He is ordering the replacement part and my car should be repaired by tomorrow evening. He will be dispatching the Venue iMT (not MT as he had said earlier) shortly. I have asked for a written diagnosis report and replacement report and he said he will be providing the same in the invoice.

Originally Posted by SolidusSnake

You mentioned error code P060194, it is a limp home mode as per Hyundai Kia and solution is a software update. Even in @sandy.gordon case they applied software update but that proved to be a temporary fix . Refer below screenshot:

Originally Posted by rst89

The ECU(Electronic control unit) has gone bad or the peripherals on the board are not communicating with the main chip on the ECU. ECU contains peripherals like EEPROM chips, high side and low side drivers, special chips which perform functionality of regulating power supply to the main chip.

Solution: Re-flash the board or replace the board.

Thanks a ton for the detailed diagnosis and explanation of the issue. Really helps laymen like me understand the underlying mechanism. I will cross check the HASS diagnosis against this info to figure out if they are not reporting the issue correctly.

[SolidusSnake]

Originally Posted by iamitp

Update - Was informed by HASS that the some part inside the gear actuator assembly has mechanically come loose (I could be misquoting him as I was finding it a bit difficult to follow). He is ordering the replacement part and my car should be repaired by tomorrow evening. He will be dispatching the Venue iMT (not MT as he had said earlier) shortly. I have asked for a written diagnosis report and replacement report and he said he will be providing the same in the invoice.

Thanks a ton for the detailed diagnosis and explanation of the issue. Really helps laymen like me understand the underlying mechanism. I will cross check the HASS diagnosis against this info to figure out if they are not reporting the issue correctly.

If you have time, I would advise that you ask the HASS to inform you when replacment part arrives and to carry out the work in front of you, so that you know what all parts were taken out and replaced.

[iamitp]

Originally Posted by SolidusSnake

If you have time, I would advise that you ask the HASS to inform you when replacment part arrives and to carry out the work in front of you, so that you know what all parts were taken out and replaced.

Yes have done that. Also spoke to the Hyundai AM who strongly suggested taking the extended warranty when my 5Y/50K warranty lapses. This sounds ominous as Hyundai don't seem confident about the longevity of their product. AM insisted that this is not a mass issue and Hyundai is diligently replacing the part for free as long as car is in warranty.

[coolboy007]

Originally Posted by iamitp

Update - Was informed by HASS that the some part inside the gear actuator assembly has mechanically come loose (I could be misquoting him as I was finding it a bit difficult to follow)

I think this is the same gear actuator failure which has been reported on multiple Seltos/Creta DCT's. The failure has similar symptoms to yours (you were just not able to engage any gear) and its sad that Hyundai/Kia have not been able to rectify this by now. This particular part has failed in many cars but this coming off loose seems a bit far fetched.

This is Sandygordon's thread and the gear actuator assembly was changed in his Seltos too. https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techn...eltos-dct.html (Serious gearbox issue in my Kia Seltos DCT)

Originally Posted by iamitp

This sounds ominous as Hyundai don't seem confident about the longevity of their product. AM insisted that this is not a mass issue and Hyundai is diligently replacing the part for free as long as car is in warranty.

Though questionable long term reliability of DCT was the reason i picked up the 1.5 Diesel Auto, i would still pick up MAXIMUM extended warranty possible with these new generation cars. Pano sunroof, ventilated seats and there are so many things which can go wrong. If you are buying these DCT boxes and not planning to pick up the max warranty possible, it's almost suicidal.

I know such issues with a new car spoils the mood but then you are getting good support from Hyundai and am sure failures like these would be covered post warranty too under goodwill like Skoda does.
None of the manufacturers have been able to make a trouble free dual clutch gearbox for Indian conditions and it's sad to see the trend continue.

[Trex5151]

Quoting OP from another thread:

Originally Posted by iamitp

Scared! Will take care never to do this.

A couple of times, I mistakenly and inadvertently, shifted the gear lever to P while the car was in motion. Probably, due to muscle memory of driving a MT for years. I heard a clicking noise before shifting back to D. No issues have occurred since then though and I'm more careful to not let this recur. However, now I am wondering if there's a chance that I could have also damaged the actuator? Should I get it checked up?

If I'm not wrong Creta DCT has an electronic shifter. So any shifts while the car is in motion should be negated. But on the off chance that it isn't an electronic shifter, would these inadvertent shifts by the OP be the reason for the gearbox failure?

[denny_ace]

I sincerely hope that the issue with your Creta 1.4 T-GDI is a minor one and would be fixed by Hyundai pretty soon as promised by them.

After reading GTO's much useful and informative post regarding the DCT & turbocharged engines, I just wanted to share with you all some related links I came across recently. This is what Scotty has to say regarding the turbocharged engines.

https://youtu.be/l0KgWjQo8gY

Plus, there's this article regarding traditional ATs making a comeback:-

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/t...ming-back-dead

It's not surprising that car manufacturers highly rated for their reliability (Toyota, Honda etc.) mostly have bigger NA engines mated to TC ATs or CVTs.

Going back to the engine warning light coming on, I too had a recent similar experience. Mine is a Ford Freestyle Titanium+ (1.2 NA petrol with a manual transmission). One fine evening, on starting the engine I felt prominent engine vibrations (the car is relatively new - a little over 1 year and only 8000 Kms on the odo). The next morning, the engine warning light came ON. I managed to reach a contact at my regular Ford A.S.S on her mobile number. However, she advised me to take the car to the service centre after the lockdown since all the service centres were closed to regular business. Desperately, I reached out to Ford's roadside assistance with the help of FordPass app. They registered my compliant and I soon started getting calls from the Ford's call center in Gurgaon & the towing agency. A rookie technician from the roadside assistance agency who was sent to inspect the car actually suspected water ingress from the incessant rain overnight. However, this was ruled out by a sound technician from Ford who spoke to me remotely from Gurgaon (my car being in Pune). His assumption was that I might have had rats (he was probably sure about his company's build quality). Nevertheless, my car was towed to a Ford's A.S.S centre in the city (my location was 32 Km away from the main city) for rectification. An OBD scan run on the next day and subsequent inspection by the skeleton staff working for just 3 hours a day (due to the restrictions imposed by the lockdown) confirmed the assumption of the remote technician. A rat chewed into the engine wiring indeed. Attaching a picture of the damage sent by my SA.

As per the SA, I had two options: 1. Insurance claim. Since the issue was not related to any manufacturing defect, they could not cover the replacement/repair under the warranty clause. After the lockdown, a surveyor from the insurance company had to make a visit to the Ford A.S.S, give his consent, the part (engine wiring assembly) was to be ordered and replacement was to be carried out (estimated cost above Rs. 10k). 2nd option - The next day a senior technician would explore the possibility of repairing it on site. Going for option 1 would have meant inordinate delay in getting back my vehicle (my only means of transportation) owing to the lockdown, assessment by the insurance co. & getting the part delivered. Plus, there was a chance of insurance co. outrightly refusing to cover the cost of the engine wiring assembly citing the reason that the engine is not covered by the insurance policy. I called back my SA and gave my express approval for local repair by the senior technician. It was carried out the next day, they test drove the vehicle for 6 Km and delivered the vehicle. The total cost of the repair stood at a reasonable Rs. 2k.

I am located at a place where there's a fair amount of flora & fauna but an incidence like this can happen with city dwellers too where rodents are more active. I have been told that present-day cars come with a mesh under the engine bay to prevent such things from happening. Anyway, we are having three kittens and their mother in our front yard ever since.

[iamitp]

Originally Posted by coolboy007

I think this is the same gear actuator failure which has been reported on multiple Seltos/Creta DCT's. The failure has similar symptoms to yours (you were just not able to engage any gear) and its sad that Hyundai/Kia have not been able to rectify this by now. This particular part has failed in many cars but this coming off loose seems a bit far fetched.

Yes by now I think I have found at-least dozens of such actuator failures across Facebook and Whatsapp groups, Team-BHP and other forums. There is certainly an issue in the Cretas sold until December 2020. As someone else had pointed out, Kia has issued a recall in Korea for the DCTs assembled in the same period. Even with an extended warranty, the max.period buyers get protected till is 5 years or 1.4 lakh KMs. Do we just count on the goodwill of Hyundai/Kia after that? Many of us will end up selling our Cretas/Seltoses much sooner than expected bearing financial implications. The fair thing for Hyundai/Kia to do would be to issue a recall in India as Kia did in Korea and Honda did for its faulty airbags in the City.

It would take a lot for this Korean behemoth to undertake such a massive step with huge financial, operational and marketing implications. However, perhaps, we the individual buyers can leverage our common cause on platforms such as TeamBHP to lodge a united petition?

Originally Posted by Trex5151

would these inadvertent shifts by the OP be the reason for the gearbox failure?

I considered the same too but seems unlikely considering the large number of very similar cases recorded for Cretas and Seltoses across India. I am fairly sure that beyond the split-second clicking noise, there was no other impact as I immediately corrected my mis-shift. The same has been confirmed yesterday by HASS who took apart the actuator assembly and found everything else okay apart from the 'so-called' loose part.

Originally Posted by denny_ace

I sincerely hope that the issue with your Creta 1.4 T-GDI is a minor one and would be fixed by Hyundai pretty soon as promised by them.

After reading GTO's much useful and informative post regarding the DCT & turbocharged engines, I just wanted to share with you all some related links I came across recently. This is what Scotty has to say regarding the turbocharged engines.

https://Youtu.be/l0KgWjQo8gY

Plus, there's this article regarding traditional ATs making a comeback:-

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/t...ming-back-dead

It's not surprising that car manufacturers highly rated for their reliability (Toyota, Honda etc.) mostly have bigger NA engines mated to TC ATs or CVTs.

I am located at a place where there's a fair amount of flora & fauna but an incidence like this can happen with city dwellers too where rodents are more active.

Fortunately the area where I park the car is rodent free being a narrow but busy colony road sandwiched between houses and a well maintained colony park. Haven't seen any rodent prints or droppings on my older cars either, plus the body-hugging TPH Pilot 373 cover I use should also be a deterrent.

[src]

Originally Posted by iamitp

I also replaced my City with the Creta. The City still serves me so wheel after all these years of abuse.


Also the thoughts going through my mind in retrospect. Had I not been living in NCR, I would have probably veered towards the Diesel-TC combo a lot more.

Extremely disappointing to see the problem in your 6 months old Creta.
In fact if I remember correctly last year during this time you were posting both in City & Creta threads and you originally thought of buying City.

Later on you decided to go for Creta. Even I was also in the same boat for a year and eventually dropped DCT Seltos & Creta and went for City this year.

The DCT phobia and lot of failures on Hyundai cars along with the dreadful waiting period tilted my decision towards City.

Hope your car comes back soon healthy and fresh.

[gururajrv]

I hope the owners problem is sorted out soon enough. But, at what cost? I’m not talking about the tangible money. Rather, I’m talking about the confidence that’s taken away by this incident.

This is mostly another repercussion of us seeing all complex tech / mechanical components trickling down from high end cars to the daily runners because when all the high end components go into the mass market products, the result is indeed low quality components used thereby sacrificing the reliability and durability of them on our cars.

Life was way simpler back in 2000’s! Less computers, more humans!