K&N Cold air induction system RC-5052AB

jassi · 6th November 2007, 18:33

ohhhh so this pcv was throwing some escaped gases out from the crankcase and into the airfilter and then these were recycled and sent back into the engine by the airfilter

so if this idle pipe is blocked, the engine shuts down after choking on itself - hmm possible, but then why doesn't the engine choke when race is given and this idle pipe is blocked and why did the hyundai guy say this is an intake and now all bad air is going in

jassi · 6th November 2007, 18:38

1self - the K&N apollo CAI has only one intake and one output and doesn't come with any plug (all components seen here http://www.knfilters.com/search/prod...Prod=RC-5052AB) which can be used to block this idle pipe in the santro. Also if you block this idle pipe when engine is idling, the engine dies

vittalnrv · 6th November 2007, 18:43

Is there any change in engine idling speed after the CAI install? If yes please revert to stock filter.If no change in idling...then there is nothing to worry about,,, if this pipe is sucking air then block the passage with the help of a bolt. If it is throwing out air then jus leave the goddamn thing alone as it is.

1self · 6th November 2007, 18:47

Jassi,

do you see the small thingys after the filter & piping (in the link)? Those are the attachments i was talking about. Where was the pipe originally connected? To the Airbox?

jassi · 6th November 2007, 18:55

ya originally this idling pipe was connected to the air box - the pipe diameter is too big to be blocked by those small thingies you referring to 1self. Also if you block it engine dies out - if rohan is correct and this is pcv then there is no way it should be blocked.

vittal - no change in idling or maybe I havent noticed it, but the car is performing well. not sure anymore if it is intake or outlet, all i know is hyundai guy blocked it and engine stopped and he did mention this is inlet and all air with moisture etc is going in. I had gone to hyundai a.s.s for some hissing sound, he initially though its belt and greased it, but then it was still there and he said it is this idling pipe

dont tell me i need to take it out - man such a waste of 8.2k if i need to go back to stock

1self · 6th November 2007, 19:08

My Dear JASSI,

It is the MAP sensor piping...DO NOT BLOCK IT. Do the following steps and YOU will be just fine.
1. Look closely at the filter...at the back you see the small hole which has been plugged by a plastic plug.
2. remove this plug.
3. take one end of your map sensor pipe, see which of the thingys fit.
4. screw the other end of the above-mentioned thingy to the hole in the air filter.
5. fit that pipe back into this attachment.
6. ENJOY!

rohan_fonseca · 6th November 2007, 19:32

1self could indeed be right. Will anyways check with a friend and let you know a bit later.

jassi · 6th November 2007, 23:01

ok guys I am not sure but think it might as well be the crankcase emission control system and not the maf sensor
Heres a pic of the hyundai air filter and you can see the point where this so called "idling" pipe connects

also i checked the hyundai manual for an maf sensor but it doesnt talk about that. it does however talk about emission control systems and heres what it says about the crankcase emission control system the santro is equipped with "The Positive Crankcase Ventilation System is employed to prevent air pollution caused by blow-by gases emitted by the crankcase. This system supplies fresh filtered air to the crankcase through the air intake hose. Inside the crankcase the fresh air mixes with the blow-by gases, which then pass through the PCV valve and into the induction system"

Now in the explanation above is the "air intake hose" our culprit "idling" hose. Also heres what i got from wikipedia PCV valve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"The PCV valve is only one part of the PCV system, which is essentially a variable and calibrated air leak, whereby the engine returns its crankcase combustion gases. Instead of the gases being vented to the atmosphere, gases are fed back into the intake manifold, to re-enter the combustion chamber as part of a fresh charge of air and fuel. The PCV system is not a classical "vacuum leak." Remember that all the air collected by the air cleaner (and metered by the mass air flow sensor, on a fuel injected engine) goes through the intake manifold anyway. The PCV system just diverts a small percentage of this air via the breather to the crankcase before allowing it to be drawn back in to the intake tract again. It is an "open system" in that fresh exterior air is continuously used to flush contaminants from the crankcase and into the combustion chamber. The system relies on the fact that, while the engine is running, the intake manifold's air pressure is always less than crankcase air pressure. The lower pressure of the intake manifold draws air towards it, pulling air from the breather through the crankcase (where it dilutes and mixes with combustion gases), through the PCV valve, and into the intake manifold.
The PCV system consists of the breather tube and the PCV valve. The breather tube connects the crankcase to a clean source of fresh air, such as the air cleaner body. Usually, clean air from the air cleaner flows in to this tube and in to the engine after passing through a screen, baffle, or other simple system to arrest a flame front, to prevent a potentially explosive atmosphere within the engine crank case from being ignited from a back-fire in to the intake manifold. The baffle, filter, or screen also traps oil mist, and keeps it inside the engine.
Once inside the engine, the air circulates around the interior of the engine, picking up and clearing away combustion byproduct gases, including a large amount of water vapor, then exits through a simple baffle, screen or mesh to trap oil droplets before being drawn out through the PCV valve, and into the intake manifold."

So is our "idling" pipe the breather tube of the PCV system and now in my santro is just left hanging to take in air in the engine bay and then send same to crankcase. Why does the engine shut off when this inlet is closed?

I feel we are getting close to the answer if this is right direction

However i am still confused what damage this can cause, given that earlier it was getting fresh air from somewhere in the airfilter

jassi · 6th November 2007, 23:29

OR is this is the outlet to the gases coming out of the PCV system and then normally get recirculated into the hyundai air filter

but now are just being let out into the engine bay and in the atmosphere

If its the PCV breather inlet then should i connect a tiny K&N to it!!

PatienceWins · 6th November 2007, 23:43

Jassi, by the time you solve this problem you would become an expert in fuel injection systems. By the rate at which you are working, it might happen by tomorrow morning.

All the best dude. As I do not have the knowledge to help you out, only support I can give is moral support.

jassi · 6th November 2007, 23:54

hehe thanks patience - just doing some research waiting for the experts to reply

Actually i read one thing and then run out and open the hood and see if it thats it

the neighbours must be really irritated by now with me turning the autocop on and off every 15 mins to check out stuff under the hood and then followed by a loud thud of closing the hood!!

PatienceWins · 6th November 2007, 23:57

I know how you feel as I go through the same thing once in a while. All this shows how much you love your car. It will be alright.

rohan_fonseca · 7th November 2007, 00:19

Jassi just spoke to a friend who has a Santro. The pipe leads to the map sensor. Please get the pipe connected asap with the help of 1self's intructions.

jassi · 7th November 2007, 00:47

hey rohan and 1self - i checked under the hood and the pipe diameter is like a 1" or more

sure behind the k&n there is a hole in the back of air filter which is right now closed, but i see no way this pipe (maf or idling or pcv) given its diameter can be connected to the back of filter.

Heres what the manual says "The K&N Apollo filter is designed to fit onto the original intake hose or air meter system if fitted i.e. Mass air sensor (MAS). Secure the Apollo unit to the original intake using a hose clamp." Quoted from http://www.kandn.com/instructions/RC-5052AB.pdf
The MAS would come after the filter and I think it is already connected to the original intake pipe. I do agree though that it could also be connected directly in the hole behind the filter. But I am guessing as long as the MAS is in the path after the air is filtered it should be ok.

However i think it could be a PCV inlet which sucks in fresh air or more so the pcv outlet through which gases are recirculated back into the engine. I have found lots of examples on what to do with the PCV to airbox connection when moving to a CAI - heres a few of em
Crankcase Filter Modification
K&N Valve Cover Breather Filter
and yes there is a K&N vent filter which goes here to clean the air before you recirculate to air filter or throw it out to atmosphere K&N Crankcase Vent Filters

As of now I am more inclined to think this is a PCV related thing - will check with hyundai again while in pune for diwali

aZa · 7th November 2007, 01:44

Hi Jassi just saw this thread IMHO the fitting is purrfecto!

Now the pipe for the acctuator has to be connected to the filter or the CAI pipe! Or you can buy a independant filter (tiny one) for the acctuator. One of my friends has done something similar i will post a pic of that acctuator filter by tom.

6th November 2007, 18:33	#16
jassi BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 980 Thanked: 11 Times View My Garage	ohhhh so this pcv was throwing some escaped gases out from the crankcase and into the airfilter and then these were recycled and sent back into the engine by the airfilter so if this idle pipe is blocked, the engine shuts down after choking on itself - hmm possible, but then why doesn't the engine choke when race is given and this idle pipe is blocked and why did the hyundai guy say this is an intake and now all bad air is going in Last edited by jassi : 6th November 2007 at 18:35. Reason: now more confused
	() Thanks

6th November 2007, 18:38	#17
jassi BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 980 Thanked: 11 Times View My Garage	1self - the K&N apollo CAI has only one intake and one output and doesn't come with any plug (all components seen here http://www.knfilters.com/search/prod...Prod=RC-5052AB) which can be used to block this idle pipe in the santro. Also if you block this idle pipe when engine is idling, the engine dies
	() Thanks

6th November 2007, 18:43	#18
vittalnrv BANNED Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 192 Thanked: 34 Times	Is there any change in engine idling speed after the CAI install? If yes please revert to stock filter.If no change in idling...then there is nothing to worry about,,, if this pipe is sucking air then block the passage with the help of a bolt. If it is throwing out air then jus leave the goddamn thing alone as it is.
	() Thanks

6th November 2007, 18:47	#19
1self BHPian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Pune Posts: 629 Thanked: 330 Times View My Garage	Jassi, do you see the small thingys after the filter & piping (in the link)? Those are the attachments i was talking about. Where was the pipe originally connected? To the Airbox?
	() Thanks

6th November 2007, 18:55	#20
jassi BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 980 Thanked: 11 Times View My Garage	ya originally this idling pipe was connected to the air box - the pipe diameter is too big to be blocked by those small thingies you referring to 1self. Also if you block it engine dies out - if rohan is correct and this is pcv then there is no way it should be blocked. vittal - no change in idling or maybe I havent noticed it, but the car is performing well. not sure anymore if it is intake or outlet, all i know is hyundai guy blocked it and engine stopped and he did mention this is inlet and all air with moisture etc is going in. I had gone to hyundai a.s.s for some hissing sound, he initially though its belt and greased it, but then it was still there and he said it is this idling pipe dont tell me i need to take it out - man such a waste of 8.2k if i need to go back to stock
	() Thanks

6th November 2007, 19:08	#21
1self BHPian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Pune Posts: 629 Thanked: 330 Times View My Garage	My Dear JASSI, It is the MAP sensor piping...DO NOT BLOCK IT. Do the following steps and YOU will be just fine. 1. Look closely at the filter...at the back you see the small hole which has been plugged by a plastic plug. 2. remove this plug. 3. take one end of your map sensor pipe, see which of the thingys fit. 4. screw the other end of the above-mentioned thingy to the hole in the air filter. 5. fit that pipe back into this attachment. 6. ENJOY!
	() Thanks

6th November 2007, 19:32	#22
rohan_fonseca BHPian Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Panaji Posts: 984 Thanked: 8 Times View My Garage	1self could indeed be right. Will anyways check with a friend and let you know a bit later.
	() Thanks

6th November 2007, 23:01	#23
jassi BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 980 Thanked: 11 Times View My Garage	ok guys I am not sure but think it might as well be the crankcase emission control system and not the maf sensor Heres a pic of the hyundai air filter and you can see the point where this so called "idling" pipe connects also i checked the hyundai manual for an maf sensor but it doesnt talk about that. it does however talk about emission control systems and heres what it says about the crankcase emission control system the santro is equipped with "The Positive Crankcase Ventilation System is employed to prevent air pollution caused by blow-by gases emitted by the crankcase. This system supplies fresh filtered air to the crankcase through the air intake hose. Inside the crankcase the fresh air mixes with the blow-by gases, which then pass through the PCV valve and into the induction system" Now in the explanation above is the "air intake hose" our culprit "idling" hose. Also heres what i got from wikipedia PCV valve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia "The PCV valve is only one part of the PCV system, which is essentially a variable and calibrated air leak, whereby the engine returns its crankcase combustion gases. Instead of the gases being vented to the atmosphere, gases are fed back into the intake manifold, to re-enter the combustion chamber as part of a fresh charge of air and fuel. The PCV system is not a classical "vacuum leak." Remember that all the air collected by the air cleaner (and metered by the mass air flow sensor, on a fuel injected engine) goes through the intake manifold anyway. The PCV system just diverts a small percentage of this air via the breather to the crankcase before allowing it to be drawn back in to the intake tract again. It is an "open system" in that fresh exterior air is continuously used to flush contaminants from the crankcase and into the combustion chamber. The system relies on the fact that, while the engine is running, the intake manifold's air pressure is always less than crankcase air pressure. The lower pressure of the intake manifold draws air towards it, pulling air from the breather through the crankcase (where it dilutes and mixes with combustion gases), through the PCV valve, and into the intake manifold. The PCV system consists of the breather tube and the PCV valve. The breather tube connects the crankcase to a clean source of fresh air, such as the air cleaner body. Usually, clean air from the air cleaner flows in to this tube and in to the engine after passing through a screen, baffle, or other simple system to arrest a flame front, to prevent a potentially explosive atmosphere within the engine crank case from being ignited from a back-fire in to the intake manifold. The baffle, filter, or screen also traps oil mist, and keeps it inside the engine. Once inside the engine, the air circulates around the interior of the engine, picking up and clearing away combustion byproduct gases, including a large amount of water vapor, then exits through a simple baffle, screen or mesh to trap oil droplets before being drawn out through the PCV valve, and into the intake manifold." So is our "idling" pipe the breather tube of the PCV system and now in my santro is just left hanging to take in air in the engine bay and then send same to crankcase. Why does the engine shut off when this inlet is closed? I feel we are getting close to the answer if this is right direction However i am still confused what damage this can cause, given that earlier it was getting fresh air from somewhere in the airfilter
	() Thanks

6th November 2007, 23:29	#24
jassi BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 980 Thanked: 11 Times View My Garage	OR is this is the outlet to the gases coming out of the PCV system and then normally get recirculated into the hyundai air filter but now are just being let out into the engine bay and in the atmosphere If its the PCV breather inlet then should i connect a tiny K&N to it!!
	() Thanks

6th November 2007, 23:43	#25
PatienceWins Senior - BHPian Join Date: May 2007 Location: Bangalore Posts: 2,416 Thanked: 807 Times View My Garage	Jassi, by the time you solve this problem you would become an expert in fuel injection systems. By the rate at which you are working, it might happen by tomorrow morning. All the best dude. As I do not have the knowledge to help you out, only support I can give is moral support.
	() Thanks

6th November 2007, 23:54	#26
jassi BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 980 Thanked: 11 Times View My Garage	hehe thanks patience - just doing some research waiting for the experts to reply Actually i read one thing and then run out and open the hood and see if it thats it the neighbours must be really irritated by now with me turning the autocop on and off every 15 mins to check out stuff under the hood and then followed by a loud thud of closing the hood!!
	() Thanks

6th November 2007, 23:57	#27
PatienceWins Senior - BHPian Join Date: May 2007 Location: Bangalore Posts: 2,416 Thanked: 807 Times View My Garage	I know how you feel as I go through the same thing once in a while. All this shows how much you love your car. It will be alright.
	() Thanks

7th November 2007, 00:19	#28
rohan_fonseca BHPian Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Panaji Posts: 984 Thanked: 8 Times View My Garage	Jassi just spoke to a friend who has a Santro. The pipe leads to the map sensor. Please get the pipe connected asap with the help of 1self's intructions.
	() Thanks

7th November 2007, 00:47	#29
jassi BHPian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Melbourne Posts: 980 Thanked: 11 Times View My Garage	hey rohan and 1self - i checked under the hood and the pipe diameter is like a 1" or more sure behind the k&n there is a hole in the back of air filter which is right now closed, but i see no way this pipe (maf or idling or pcv) given its diameter can be connected to the back of filter. Heres what the manual says "The K&N Apollo filter is designed to fit onto the original intake hose or air meter system if fitted i.e. Mass air sensor (MAS). Secure the Apollo unit to the original intake using a hose clamp." Quoted from http://www.kandn.com/instructions/RC-5052AB.pdf The MAS would come after the filter and I think it is already connected to the original intake pipe. I do agree though that it could also be connected directly in the hole behind the filter. But I am guessing as long as the MAS is in the path after the air is filtered it should be ok. However i think it could be a PCV inlet which sucks in fresh air or more so the pcv outlet through which gases are recirculated back into the engine. I have found lots of examples on what to do with the PCV to airbox connection when moving to a CAI - heres a few of em Crankcase Filter Modification K&N Valve Cover Breather Filter and yes there is a K&N vent filter which goes here to clean the air before you recirculate to air filter or throw it out to atmosphere K&N Crankcase Vent Filters As of now I am more inclined to think this is a PCV related thing - will check with hyundai again while in pune for diwali Last edited by jassi : 7th November 2007 at 00:49.
	() Thanks

7th November 2007, 01:44	#30
aZa Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Noida / Delhi Posts: 1,595 Thanked: 21 Times View My Garage	Hi Jassi just saw this thread IMHO the fitting is purrfecto! Now the pipe for the acctuator has to be connected to the filter or the CAI pipe! Or you can buy a independant filter (tiny one) for the acctuator. One of my friends has done something similar i will post a pic of that acctuator filter by tom.
	() Thanks