[gaddiwale]

This is the case history.

Originally Posted by gaddiwale

Let me tell my case so far:
1. First servicing was done at 1445 km with replace of engine oil
2. Second servicing was completed at 5137 km with out oil change
3. Third servicing was done at 10238 km with engine oil and filter change

During a regular check up at home (~ 14400 km) found the oil level is below the minimum mark in the dip stick. Actually there was no sign of oil in the dip stick. Rushed to MASS (Vitesse, Prabhadevi). The SA poured ~ 500 ml of oil, the level came up to the bottom most part of the dip stick. Somehow I was worried about the actual oil level in the engine, went for a oil change at MASS (Chetan Motors, Navi Mumbai) at 14629. They drained the earlier oil (visually the volume was less than 2.5 lits), topped up with 3.1 lit Mobil Delvac and oil filter. On a flat surface the oil level was at the top mark of the dip stick. The car has been checked throughly for any leakage, nothing spotted.

4. After 15881 km, I again checked the oil level it was showing one mm less than the upper mark in the dip stick.

5. After 16300 km (i.e., after oil change the car has done 1617 km) I've checked the oil level, now I can see the oil level is 3 mm below the upper limit.

So far I'm getting FE of 19.8 kmpl (avg), there is no leakage. I have a ScanGauge II fitted, I've monitored the boost, at 2000 rpm car is giving proper boost thus, turbo is working fine, no black smoke.

I do not know where the oil is going? I spoke to Chetan Motors (A category MASS (where I changed the oil) they said may be the oil is going to turbo and recommened to talk to Vitesse (Dealer Workshop). I spoke to my SA at Vitesse and he is telling this is normal. I'm sure in another 1500 km the oil level will come down further to the minimum level.

As planned I've visited Vitesse today.

Originally Posted by gaddiwale

I've spoken to MASS over phone, they are telling this is normal (which I don't agree), taken an appointment for this Saturday for an inspection. Will inform you on Saturday.

Told SA the case history - reply I got "this is normal", but informed Manager Mr. Allan D'Souza. Mr. D'Souza told according to Maruti's revised communication DDiS engine consume 0.115 lit engine oil/1000 km thus, after oil change (2000 km) oil should be ~ 250 ml less. According to Maruti the Max and Min level in the dipstick corresponds to 900 ml. Thus, after running about 10000 km ideally one should not get any trace of oil in the dipstick!


Drained the oil, measured, it came around 2.4 lit i.e., 700 ml less. He instructed the SA to remove the intercooler, oil separator and turbo tubing. Last two was fine, Mr. Allan said not to remove turbo, this may disturb the sealing thus, just inspected the tubings. But around 15-20 ml of oil was there inside the intercooler. According to Mr. Allan, this is normal!!



Mr. D'Souza entered all the comment in the job card and said me to monitor the car for another 2000 km and report after every 1000 km. Finally filled up 3.1 lit oil and changed oil filter. Changed the air filter too, because it was dirty and as per Maruti's revised troubleshooting of excess oil consumption, a dirty air filter may contribute in this. After observation period they will take a decision.

[Schoudhury]

Originally Posted by gaddiwale

Told SA the case history - reply I got "this is normal", but informed Manager Mr. Allan D'Souza. Mr. D'Souza told according to Maruti's revised communication DDiS engine consume 0.115 lit engine oil/1000 km thus, after oil change (2000 km) oil should be ~ 250 ml less. According to Maruti the Max and Min level in the dipstick corresponds to 900 ml. Thus, after running about 10000 km ideally one should not get any trace of oil in the dipstick!

Gaddiwale, could please explain "the Max and Min level in the dipstick corresponds to 900 ml" , i could not understand this properly .

[gaddiwale]

Originally Posted by Schoudhury

Gaddiwale, could please explain "the Max and Min level in the dipstick corresponds to 900 ml" , i could not understand this properly .

Hi,

When the oil level is in max - you have 3100 ml oil in your engine, and if the oil is in minimum level - still you will have 2200 ml of engine oil left inside your engine.

Hope I've explained properly.

[kulvinder singh]

Had earlier written on Jaggu's forum that finding a bit of oil in the intercooler is normal--

Suggest you personally keep monitoring your oil level every 50 Km or less.
I've just managed to get the tech specs on this engine -- basically the coolent temperature gauge is calibrated to 80 degs--- doesn't mean that it can't read past that, but if your scan guage is taking readings from this, vis the ECU--- then it may not be 100% accurate.
By 80 degs the thermostat is open- and the design of the system is such that it would take a hell of a lot more than bumper to bumper traffic for the temperature to fluctuate more than 2 degs. At 90 ( only 10 away from becoming steam) the coolent would be shooting out of the expansion vessel.
In reality the engine is such that as long as there is enough liquid the engine will not overheat. If there is lets say oil mixed up with the coolent- then the engine will run hotter, but will only get into the danger zone when the oil has completely displaced the coolent and has started to clog up the thermostat etc..
1) Forget the Scan guage and just keep looking at the temperature guage- it should be below dead horizontal (at full operating temp) and not move whether in bumper to bumper or at full pelt.- if it is at horizontal or slightly above-- and stable, i.e does not move further: that means you have something other than water based coolent cooling your engine!-- also check the heating!!

Engine manufacturers often make a claim about what is normal oil consumption--- But this is very difficult to actually ascertain. It also depends on driving conditions-- it is not e.g surprising to find much higher oil consumption in very cold climates than the manufacturers claim as the maximum.

2) Bottom line is-OIL- the engine will last 5lakh kms without a rebuild-- but if its driven even a few meters without oil- it will disintegrate. The firs't and immediate sign will be overheating-- no oil= excessive heat which the coolent cannot dissipate!

When I had the problem- I immediate kept 2 four litre cans of oil in the car-- just didn't have time to fix the problem ( more so since Mass refused to accept anything other than Head Gasket without even doing basic checks such as compression)--- drove about 300kms kept filling oil every few kms until had the time to fix the thing ( the temp needle was above horizontal, just, and stable there)

[gaddiwale]

Originally Posted by kulvinder singh

1) Forget the Scan guage and just keep looking at the temperature guage- it should be below dead horizontal (at full operating temp) and not move whether in bumper to bumper or at full pelt.- if it is at horizontal or slightly above-- and stable, i.e does not move further: that means you have something other than water based coolent cooling your engine!-- also check the heating!!

Thanks, the issue is Ritz doesn't have an analogue temp. gauge. It has only a temp indicator!!



The Scan Gauge reading of water temp -

[kulvinder singh]

Just cross checked with the FIAT specs-
1. The engine does not consume oil-- obviously all engines do, but the design allows for far less then you have been advised. Your calculations are correct- any engine that consumes 3.25 litrs of oil in 10k kms- would not meet current emissions criteria ( or from 20 years ago)-- so sounds like your Mass guy either has got something wrong or Maruti are passing around some BLSHT.

2. The indicator light is for coolent temperature at the thermostat.- so you have no choice but to rely on the scan guage. Generally you should build in about a + or - 10% error. But to have an inkling of whats happening you need to see where it actually settles and stays- if you can remember was the scan G showing a very stable temperature and was that lower than now?.
The cooling system is finely mated:
This is why the turbo works well- i.e it needs oil-cooling as well as charge air cooling to work optimally.-- thats why the engineering of the system ensures no great fluctuations.

Long and short is- your oil is disappearing somewhere- only possible places it can go:

Cylinder head sealing compromised--- in which case get a compression test done ( but if you don't have loss of performance- power, FE, smoke etc-- then don't even bother with this)-- compression test is simple; a air pressure guage replaces each Glow plug. The engine is turned by hand and the pressure measured in each cylinder.

Leaks-- check to see any spots of oil on the ground where the car is parked!!

Oil cooler-- unfortunately this is much more difficult to check-- so only thing to do is drain the entire coolent ( radiator has a drain valve at the bottom) and look for traces of oil.

[gaddiwale]

Just cross checked with the FIAT specs-
1. The engine does not consume oil-- obviously all engines do, but the design allows for far less then you have been advised. Your calculations are correct- any engine that consumes 3.25 litrs of oil in 10k kms- would not meet current emissions criteria ( or from 20 years ago)-- so sounds like your Mass guy either has got something wrong or Maruti are passing around some BLSHT.

I've checked the oil level of a Swift VDi which is due for a 30000 kms servicing, and the oil level you can see in the below image, its not at all that low. Can other Ritz/Swift DDiS owners post there experience with oil level?

2. The indicator light is for coolent temperature at the thermostat.- so you have no choice but to rely on the scan guage. Generally you should build in about a + or - 10% error. But to have an inkling of whats happening you need to see where it actually settles and stays- if you can remember was the scan G showing a very stable temperature and was that lower than now?.
The cooling system is finely mated:
This is why the turbo works well- i.e it needs oil-cooling as well as charge air cooling to work optimally.-- thats why the engineering of the system ensures no great fluctuations.

Normally Scan Gauge shows temp around 84 degree C, but in bumper to bumper traffic it reaches 95 degree C, but in open stretch temp comes down to 84-87 degree C.

Long and short is- your oil is disappearing somewhere- only possible places it can go:

Cylinder head sealing compromised--- in which case get a compression test done ( but if you don't have loss of performance- power, FE, smoke etc-- then don't even bother with this)-- compression test is simple; a air pressure guage replaces each Glow plug. The engine is turned by hand and the pressure measured in each cylinder.

No loss of power and FE (18-20 kmpl), no throwing of black smoke has been observed. Thus, the workshop manager skipped the compression test, though it has been recommended in the Maruti's trobleshooting list.

Leaks-- check to see any spots of oil on the ground where the car is parked!!

Checked - no leakage has been detected.

Oil cooler-- unfortunately this is much more difficult to check-- so only thing to do is drain the entire coolent ( radiator has a drain valve at the bottom) and look for traces of oil.

I'll keep this point in mind and after 2000 km when I'll take the car for inspection (which will be a 20000 km servicing as well) tell them to drain the coolent and observe for traces of oil in coolent, any way this will be a part of 20000 km servicing.

Still I don't know where the oil is going??

[kulvinder singh]

95 c seems a little high to me- though as I said since the scan gauge doesn't directly check the temperature- this could be innacurate.

You mention bumper to bumper traffic-- is it the case that after starting you go straight into this traffic- i.e before the engine warms up properly? diesels tend to consume oil in these type of driving conditions-- whils't cold; stop start creep etc...
However even this should not be the cause of very high oil consumption.

Did your SA actually have a compression testing fitment tool--- I found that three SA's I approached did not-- in the end I made my own, out of a glow plug.

Keep checking the coolent reservoir!!!

If you start seeing the temp rising- whils't driving, remember don't switch of immediately, put it in neutral keep the clutch pressed down let the car coast a little keeping an eye on the temp then switch off.

[kulvinder singh]

Forgot to mention:
Fourth reason for loss of oil---- Someone's stealing it!!

[Jaggu]

For reference last oil change was more than 4000kms and had done about 700 kms of highway driving, quite spirited at it. Oil was just below full mark after the oil change.

[gaddiwale]

Originally Posted by kulvinder singh

You mention bumper to bumper traffic-- is it the case that after starting you go straight into this traffic- i.e before the engine warms up properly? diesels tend to consume oil in these type of driving conditions-- whils't cold; stop start creep etc...
However even this should not be the cause of very high oil consumption.

When I take out the car in the morning, give a minute warm up, by this time temp goes up tp 45 degree C, then drive the car slowly in 2nd gear for about a km, by this time temp come upto 65 degree C. I've noticed after running about 4-5km temp goes up and settle around 84-85 degree C. But while coming back from office I give a minute warm up and start moving in a bumper to bumper traffic for a stretch of 1.5 km, which some time takes 30 mins to get out. Here temp goes up to 95 degree C and the intake air temp around 50-52 degree C. Generally intake air temp remains between 30-38 degree C or little more depending on the Mumbai ambient temp.

Originally Posted by kulvinder singh

Forgot to mention:
Fourth reason for loss of oil---- Someone's stealing it!!

May be the real reason, but where to lodge the FIR?

Originally Posted by Jaggu

For reference last oil change was more than 4000kms and had done about 700 kms of highway driving, quite spirited at it. Oil was just below full mark after the oil change.

Thanks Jaggu.

[goandude]

This is a very interesting thread which i have been keenly following but sadly it is getting more confusing,

Does the DDIS consume oil at a regular rate or not is the question I am trying to find the answer for as my DDIS does consume oil. no oil leaks, no black smoke, FE 20+, coolant green no black deposits.
As per Jaggus picture he has approx lost 300 ml oil in his 4000 km since last fill corresponding to 75 ml/1000 km. On the other hand the swift which was due fro 30K servicing shows almost no loss.

My experience is as follows:-
When I was in Goa I only did long drives in my car and had no lowering of oil levels in my 1K, 5K or 10K service. Then I moved to Mumbai where I do very short commutes daily less than a kilometer one way. Occasional 400 to 1000 km long drives. At 15K found oil midway between top and bottom of oil mark of dipstick. Today at 17K+km oil is 3-4 mm below top mark.

my take:- DDIS consumes oil esp when driven short distances and the rate varies from 50 to 100 ml/1000 km.

[humyum]

Okay I will share my experience about this.

My DDIS is 2 years Old now. In the 1st year, It did 20 thousand kilometers, with oil change every 5 thousand kilometers after the 1st 1000 km oil change.

Then the car was almost idle with 2 thousand kilometers done in 9 months.

Then in 4 months it clocked another 16 thousand kilometers when I came back from UK for a vacation. Same oil change intervals of 5 thousand kilometers.

In this entire duration, except the 2 thousand kilomters in 9 month time, the car has been 95% of time driven to its limits.

It has been revved, ripped, made to reach top speeds everyday, constant high speed highway drives, of course it has been looked after like a family member but just mentioning the driving done on the car till now

During the entire duration, the DDIS has never ever consumed any oil. the Oil level has always remained constant on the dipstick at every 5 thousand kilometer oil change.

Of course, it has not been driven like goandude's car for 1 kilometer trips, but yes it has had its share of city driving start stops many times.

So my take would be, if you have to ever top up oil in 5 thousand kilometers, then your car needs a go through by the service station pronto.

[Jaggu]

Ok these days since i moved close to office, my running is very less and most often the engine is switched off before it is completely heated up. When i look back i see a correlation to the post, oil consumption was less when i used to have longer daily runs or maybe the consumption is more after the engine has run more.

Anyways i do a fortnight check from day 1 and oil consumption has never been alarming that i felt a need to top up, ok i follow 5k oil change and this time oil level was at lower level right from fill up.

[Mevtec]

Dear friends,
thank you for the support. After more than two weeks (car reached Bangalore on 12-11-2010) today MAS have given the details and the estimate. The main concern for the MAS is that they don’t have the evidence that we have reported the problem earlier. The service engineers fails to recognize us! They asked for the date at which we first visited the MAS with the problem. We managed to get the date,as on the same day my brother had posted on a social forum about the problem. Still they couldn’t even trace even a gate pass. No records even about the oil and filter change.What would have been evidence if the car was stolen from the workshop that day!

Service experience so far is horrible. What is the use of having service centre is every village when the service personnel cannot even diagnose a problem. We are really fed up. We are going to have an important family function in January. We are desperate to repair the car as soon as possible.

Please go through the estimate. Experts may be able to diagnose what really went wrong. Till now we haven’t received any reassurance from Maruti on repairing the car under warranty. It has been 17 days.Maruti’s regional service engineer was helpful. According to him by tomorrow we will be able to know whether Maruti will repair the engine under warranty.MAS will make lot of profit out of this engine in long run.They are unable to say whether the turbo has gone. Is it possible to check whether turbo is ok?