[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by mtnrajdeep

The problem is that suraksha or any other MASS for that matter does not handle warranty repairs. If you want something to be checked under warranty you are forced to visit a dealer workshop.

I dont think so, Suraksha also can handle warranty repair and the regional SA visits them also if am not mistaken.

[mtnrajdeep]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

I dont think so, Suraksha also can handle warranty repair and the regional SA visits them also if am not mistaken.

Jaggu,I plan to visit them for my next service and I will check with Lokesh again on this.

[Mevtec]

Dear friends,
I had send some detailed e mails with my designation to Maruti Head office on 01-12-2010.Got a reply at last.But still no clarification or follow up on the matter.The people at regional office are not at all useful.So I have send few more e mails today.Hope they will respond.Thinking of going to the consumer court.

The analysis of Kulvinder Singh sir shows that the estimate is dubious.It seems the Maruti regional service engineer cannot be trusted.These are the points I have understood.

1) It seems they didn't do the compression test to see the viability of cylinders even though engine was cranking.

2) Oil cooler cannot be damaged by overheating.Was there any problem in oil cooler? Then why it is has to be changed.It may be main reason why the car has lost oil.

3) Gasket set no 3 contain all gasket except head gasket then why the extra gaskets.

4) Short engine with crankshaft seals come readily assembled.Then why they have mentioned extra crank shaft seals in the estimate?

5) How can the Oil pump and housing is not damaged when entire bottom half damaged? It is not mentioned in the estimate.

6) Head gasket and cylinder bolts are not mentioned in the estimate. On all modern aluminium cylinder heads (especially multi valve) the head gasket and bolts have to be changed every time the engine is opened even if there is no damage.Why it is not mentioned.Are they going to use old ones?

7) Have they checked cylinder head height then what type it is A,B or C.


I have quoted all these is my second letter to Maruti,as if I am an expert in engine design and building.

[kulvinder singh]

Mevtec:

I think you will end up wasting a lot of your time- with the Maruti Regional- or indeed Maruti.

If you do get a reply I suspect it will be along the lines of:

"The gasket set was mistakenly quoted... "

(actually forgot to previously mention that set no. 3 also contains all the gaskets for the Short Engine also-- which is pre-assembled with all gaskets in place. In fact you would only need Set No 1 or possibly 2.)

"The oil cooler comes as a full unit along with Oil- body etc..."

"They didn't do a compression test, because the engine needs to be warm..."

Look: Basically Maruti aren't going to be interested because you have already told them that there was a oil loss problem beforehand!!! (believe me this is how any manufacturer in the world will respond)

1. The Regional manager is only relying on what the Service Mechanic/mas is reporting.
And what they are saying is that the engine is siezed beyond repair-- that the entire bottom half needs to be replaced.
-What they have not said is why- i.e is it the Block; pistons; bearings; etc..- What is the actual damage?

Now, unless your brother's memory is confused and in fact he didn't notice the oil light until it was too late---- the above-that the entire bottom half is gone- is unreliable for various reasons. (for one thing if that was the case the head would have gone too!)

However what the Mas/ RM are assuming- or implying is the above.. i.e that the engine is beyond repair.

2. Have you/brother- actually seen the engine open and been shown the damage??

The most likely reasons that the engine won't start but will crank are:

A> None of the cylinders are holding pressure.

B> The ECU- Electronic Control Unit- has shut off the fuel supply----- It does this only on its SECOND Cycle.

The firs't cycle is when it detects a problem-- the relevant warning lights come on- only. The second cycle is when the engine is switched off and attempted to be started again.

The firs't thing you need is a proper diagnosis---- from someone other than those with whome the car currently is!!!!!!!!! and if you can't find someone-- then you need to do it yourself-- it's not difficult-- I can be on the end of the phone and guide if you need.

[johnruben]

@ kulvinder singh, Happy to have an experience person like you in this forum,I have a question for you.

Are today's cars/engine so delicate that seizures happen just like that, what i mean to say is, i had a 2000 daewoo matiz and once it overheated and temp gauge went full till "H" and engine halted. i tried to crank and it didnt, i left for sometime to cool and then i added water in the radiator and after few mins it started just fine and i was able to drive it, if an old matiz ECU can shutoff engine to avoid overheating and cause major damage to engine parts, why doesnt a swift has an ECU like that ?

Is swift not supposed to turn off the engine completely to avoid any major damages, if it has done its job, then there is no need for engine overhaul isnt it ?

pls tell me if i am correct ?

Thanks

[kulvinder singh]

1. The engine will not switch off immediately-- because this could be a potentially very dangerous situation, i.e imagine the car is traveling at a high speed and somebody behind is about to overtake, and the engine switches off (Bang) etc...

2. What if the initially detection of a problem is in fact a sensor error?

3. So what the ECU does is that when it firs't detects a problem - it warns the Driver by triggering one or more of the warning lights-i.e it is the responsibility of the driver to now do the appropriate action.
It also holds this warning (error code) in it's memory.

4. Everytime the car is started, the ECU first checks for problems. If it has a error code already in its memory it will double check for this problem and if the problem is still there- it won't then let the car start.

5. Obviously the ECU is only programmed to do this- i.e for Shutdown -or no restart- if the problem is a major one, i.e. would lead to damage or make the vehicle unsafe.

Modern engines are built with much better tolerances and tuning than older generation engines- so whils't if well maintained and not overstressed- they will last for much longer than the previous generation- and be far more efficient. However if even slightly abused (overheated, driven without oil etc..) they are a lot more prone to failure than the previous gen.

In short they are far more sensitive!!!!

[Mevtec]

Dear friends,
things are going from bad to worse.Still no definite answer from Maruti.Got an email from Bimal's Work manager as an answer to my brother's email.

My brother wrote

Kindly clear my doubts regarding my swift vdi engine repair

1)Have you done the compression test to see the viability of cylinders
even though engine is cranking?


Answer:in Work Managers own words.

Compression test is done and no compression development since the compression leak is there to be precise the value of compression is 0.

2) Was there any problem in oil cooler? Then why it is has to be changed?
Is that root cause of oil drainage?


Answer:Found metal minute pieces in oil cooler cannot ascertain if it is due oil cooler pump because engine was found in excess total engine drained from the vehicle was 4.5 lts which could also led to engine failure.

3) Gasket set no 3 contain all gasket except head gasket then why extra
gaskets?

Answer: There are three types of gasket sets with and without head gasket hence ordered however it will be explained to you or shown to you.

4) Short engine with crankshaft oil seals come readily assembled then why then extra crank shaft seal?

Answer:It is received without seal.

5) How oil pump and housing is not damaged when entire bottom half of the engine is damaged?


Answer:We have never mentioned that there is an external damage.

6) Head gasket and cylinder head bolts why it is not mentioned in the bill? It has to be changed every time the engine is opened.Are you going to use the old ones?Have you checked cylinder head height ,then what type it is A,B,C

Answer: After lathe work we will come to know the category of gasket and height and the bolts necessary !

"With the above we feel that we have answered or cleared the queries, you are requested to approve the repair as per the approximate estimation by paying 60% in advance of the approximate estimation.

Pls note that we would be charging Rs 100/- per day from Monday 13th
December 2010 as parking charges with interest of 17% per annum."


Planning to go to consumer court.Fed up by the dealership and Maruti customer care.

How many months it will take for the case to be completed in a consumer court? Would like to know the opinion of the Team Bhp members.

[johnruben]

@mevtec, oh sad :(
by looking at the answers from bimal Work Manager, i am not at all satisfied and i know you too are not. I am not sure how long it takes to settle this in consumer court, but i suggest you to settle this off the court and make a deal with maruti to atleast pay 50% of the estimation. some are lucky here to get justice while others have lost peace of mind, time and money. Make the Best decision and God be with you.

@ kulvinder singh, thanks for answering my questions, your last sentence makes the point

[kulvinder singh]

Mevtec:

The only advice I can give you is GET THE CAR OUT OF THERE ASAP--- before they PURPOSELY damage the engine, so that you are stuck and they can TOTALLY FLEECE YOU!!!

1. I know earlier I used the expression.. " no pressure at all"-- but I did not mean by that 0 pressure.
If the Engine is turning----- then it is physically impossible for there to be 0 pressure in all or even one the cylinders. In fact it would defy the fundamental laws of mechanics!!!!!

2. They say they did not quote for external works (oil pump/casing) The Oil- cooler assembly is an EXTERNAL WORK- just like the oil-pump.

3. They have said that they found "metal Particles" in the OIL COOLER--- how? The unit is a pressure moulded and sealed unit-- It CANNOT be OPENED!! The only way to determine if it is defective is by high pressure testing, with very specific tools------ EVEN MARUTI DON'T HAVE THESE TOOLS!!!

4. So they found metal particles in the Oil Cooler-- but not in the OIL PUMP-- wow!! and by this they are telling you that the COOLER needs replacing-- which doesn't have any moving parts-- but not the PUMP--- which is a moving part--- how on earth is this possible. Perhaps these guys are in fact SUPERMAN and have XRAY- VISION!!

5. You can very easily see yourself what is included and what isn't in the "SHORT ENGINE"---- "GASKET SETS" and anything else-- JUST GO TO YOUR NEAREST MARUTI PARTS SHOP. THEY HAVE A PARTS BOOKLET WITH COMPLETE EXPLODED VIEWS OF EVERYTHING: short engine, gasket sets, cylinder head--- even the clips that hold anything from seat trim to engine wires!!


I won't go into any more technical detail on this because everything that these guys have said is so absolutely spurious- that even if there is any damage with your engine I WOULD NOT TRUST THEM TO FIX IT!!

The reason I say this is because-- I have a major suspicion that they have actually not even opened your engine to see what is wrong!!!!!!!!

And if they have then they actually have no clue-- The Cylinder head lathing can only be determined (even if it needs it) by simple measurements of Height and square, and if they did this then they would know exactly which GASKET to quote for. THE BOLTS BY THE WAY ARE STANDARD ONLY- SO LATHING THE HEAD HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SELECTING THE BOLTS. ( INCIDENTALLY THIS HEAD CANNOT BE LATHED!!)


The most crucial thing is that YOU DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW IF THE ENGINE IS DAMAGED OR WHETHER THE ECU HAS SIMPLY PUT IT INTO "SHUTDOWN MODE" AS A PRECAUTION!!!

In which case you may find that simply resetting the ECU code will start up the engine and you may find that there is in fact NOTHING SERIOUSLY WRONG WITH IT!!

ONE more piece of advice: Please stop telling them what you are being advised of---- this is like telling a thief what the detective has discovered!!

Quietly and politely--- GET YOUR CAR OUT OF THERE!

[johnruben]

Originally Posted by kulvinder singh

Mevtec:

The most crucial thing is that YOU DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW IF THE ENGINE IS DAMAGED OR WHETHER THE ECU HAS SIMPLY PUT IT INTO "SHUTDOWN MODE" AS A PRECAUTION!!!

In which case you may find that simply resetting the ECU code will start up the engine and you may find that there is in fact NOTHING SERIOUSLY WRONG WITH IT!!

Yes, I strongly feel these guys are trying to make quick buck in shortcut.

Originally Posted by kulvinder singh

Mevtec:

Quietly and politely--- GET YOUR CAR OUT OF THERE!

@Mevtec, get your car out of there asap.

[Mevtec]

Dear friends,

Thank you for the support. Got a letter from MSIL, they are clinging on to the extra oil found in the engine to void the warranty. My brother did top up the oil in a local workshop when he noticed that the car had overheated with low oil and coolant .It cost about Rs.750 including labor. The approximate quantity of oil filled is 2.5 L. They say that there was 4.5 L oil in the engine. So does it mean that we cannot even top up the oil in this car! But the really sad thing is the response to various e mails which I send to Maruti.I am posting the reply I got to the letter send to a senior official in service.



Dear Dr ,

With reference to the complaint to MSIL dated 14/11/2010 and 01.12.2010. Subsequent to the complaint we had contacted with Dr………..who is using the vehicle at Bangalore and updated the status. Subsequent to our discussion with him, we would like to share with you the findings regarding your Swift vehicle bearing registration no. KL---

1. The vehicle was towed to Bimal auto after the breakdown and investigated jointly by the dealer and MSIL Engineer.

2. During the investigation it has been found there was almost 4.5 litres of engine oil drained from the engine. The recommended oil quantity in the engine was only 2.9 litres.

3. Since the service works under warranty are governed by the warranty policy as stated in the owner's manual, we regret to inform you that the repair of the vehicle may not be considered under warranty.

We appreciate your understanding and we assure our services always
Thanks & Regards,

To add insult to injury he has send a copy of the page of the owner's manual, as if I hadn't read it.



Mistakes on our part

1, Trusted MAS and the company.
2,Didn't insist MAS to take a Job card when we reported the increased oil consumption .
3, Did an oil top up at a local workshop in Hosur.
4,Never knew the these problems had been reported for DDiS.

According to a senior service manager who worked in Kerala ,the other possible causes of oil loss other than Kulvinder Singh sir had pointed out include,

a ,Over tightening of the nut after oil change can damage a small pipe which can lead to progressive oil loss. It should be tightened with the proper tool. We have never done an oil change outside MAS.

b, Using more than the recommended quantity of oil can affect the engine. The engine is said to be very sensitive to change in oil pressures. I don't know whether this is true. We have not over filled oil prior to the incident.


Maruti cannot be trusted anymore. Instead of assessing the main problem they are trying to fool the customers. I am planning to post my experience in other forums as well. Our car may be one in 25000.Since Swift diesel is brought with VFM and low running cost in mind, expensive repairs like this may be difficult for many. It's written "experience is the best teacher, but to learn by experience is costly". I hope this thread will benefit others.

We don't have enough time to fight. We would like to have the car before Christmas.By God's grace finance is not a big problem at present. We have paid about 40,000 as initial payment. Total cost is estimated to be Rs.1, 00,000. Now they are a bit friendlier. At the MAS in Bangalore they say they have repaired about 10 cars till now with similar complaints. All probably with the same lame excuse .Hope the works manager is not involved in the repair. But if he does we might get a full engine replacement. (Please refer the previous post in which the works manager's reply to the questions)


My advice is that if you can afford a better car than Swift/Dzire diesels go for it.Maruti's overhyped service experience and network should not be a reason to buy a Maruti product. We still don't regret buying Indica DLX (1999) and Swift diesel (2008),there were no cars at that time to satisfy our criterias.But now things are different. If Maruti is not careful they might lose further market share.

[johnruben]

Originally Posted by Mevtec

Dear friends,

Mistakes on our part

3, Did an oil top up at a local workshop in Hosur.


b, Using more than the recommended quantity of oil can affect the engine. The engine is said to be very sensitive to change in oil pressures. I don't know whether this is true. We have not over filled oil prior to the incident.

OMG It is highly dangerous to overfill oil more than the recommended amount of litres. Maybe the entire failure happened due to overfilling, there are so many threads in this forum explaining causes of overfilling engine oil, just check it out.

[camchennai]

Sorry to hear your story and its very shocking to see MSIL being largest and reputed concern in India making a run around for its customers. The sad part is that they are backing off on warranty part, I guess this is one another thread like the Skoda story. We would need to create lot of noise around it and if possible rope in some auto magazine guys, times of India or some auto car shows to explain this to public and to pull MSIL attention towards this issue. I guess few senior folks in our forum can help you on this context.

Few question came out while reading your thread:-
1. There has been large quantity of oil leak from your car, was it not noticed in the parking lot where you park your car(I mean oil stains in the ground)
2. If coolant is empty then the first symptom would be AC compressor getting cut-off, did you experience this?? I read your brother while driving experienced it however it was too late, it would have been experienced much before.
3. Did you happened to have a look at the temperature of your car from dashboard, i guess a constant look would have helped. Also check engine light would have glowed in case the temperature rises often

Please don't mistake, i Just thought of these so I am typing.

[Sunilrj]

Have owned more than 10 cars till date, 6 of them Marutis and i have always noted that they hunt for the flimiest reasons to void warranty. eg: with my SX4 - the rear combi lamp set was taking in water and condensation forming inside - went for warranty replacement and i was told 3M polish was done outside the Maruti workshop and the exhaust pipe chrome tip was installed was not MGP. so no Warranty!

Conversely with my Linea, the Combi lamp set was facing a similar problem, probably due to a faulty seal, and TASS replaced it without fuss. i was even informed by TASS that the dealer needs to be proactive in replacement. if the dealer decides that something needs to be replaced and warranty claimed, the dealer has the freedom to go ahead and replace it.

also for the benefit of all TBHP members when you visit the ASC insist on raising of a job card and even if the repair is to be done free of Cost - eg: installing a clip from the fusebox which flew out when i was trying to open the fuse box (linea). the service visit will get logged into the System and create a record.

Installing accessories, higher watt Bulbs etc, reverse sensor - make the ASC install and pay then their labour Charges and ask for a bill. so on a later date they wont say that the warranty is voided as the ASC themselves have installed it and they cant deny their responsibility

[Mevtec]

Dear Friends,
we got the car back in december last week.Total bill was near RS.90,000/.The car is running fine for the last one week.
According to my brother the turbo charger didn't have any problem.We are very happy that we got the car back.Will upload the final bill as soon as I get it.Thank you all for the support.