[shankar.balan]

Hi Salil

Some of your points are well appreciated. But frankly as an old M&M loyalist, if you ask ME personally to put money down for the Thar - sorry but I wont.

I would much rather buy a second hand hard top MM540/MM550 and spend some money customizing its interiors and have my self a very capable lifestyle off roader which also can be made to look the part. Agreed I will miss out on the technical bits and pieces and the lovely Crde engine, but thats too bad really. I am not willing under any circumstances to consider the Thar a "Lifestyle" vehicle - to me, M&M have literally insulted the intelligence of the public and the loyal consumer base by providing cheap rubbish quality - any excuses made on account of budget constraints etc may well be valid, but from the consumer's point of view that just doesnt cut it.

Enough said. I am out of this thread.

Cheers!

[anujmishra]

Same thing when I said in launch thread some LandRover Fella and 4X4 fans were against me. I asked what is the value for 7.1 lakh spent on the product? Some people said only engine. I am sorry, only engine in old trash board would not impact normal users.

This is 21st century and if M&M wanted to keep old design, OK, but give top-notch quality. Quality matters not just fitting other products engine into old chasis and it would be great car (as advertised). Do no think consumers as fool as it was there in last early century.

Also regarding the price point of view consumer will spend 7.1 ~ 7.2 lakh on road in Bangalore. I as consumer do not bother How much Mahindra will get and How much government. For me it is 7.1 lakh in totality which is gone and I evaluate w.r.t to this amount.

For some spending 7 - 8 lakh would be nothing but for 99% they will see the value. Common Mahindra.

[jp1]

Exactly my feelings, We are loyal to M&M from early 80s (one of the first to try out their Peugeot when it was launched some where in 83 or 84, it drinks more oil than diesel), but disappointed with this launch and felt it was quite insulting. I was asking earlier for a Bolero 4x4 with CRDe and I thought Thar would answer that requirement as I was more liking the Thar compact size. They could not even provide a split foldable 2nd row seat for Bolero.

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Hi Salil

I am not willing under any circumstances to consider the Thar a "Lifestyle" vehicle - to me, M&M have literally insulted the intelligence of the public and the loyal consumer base by providing cheap rubbish quality - any excuses made on account of budget constraints etc may well be valid, but from the consumer's point of view that just doesnt cut it.

Enough said. I am out of this thread.

Cheers!

[Sudarshan]

Originally Posted by anujmishra

Same thing when I said in launch thread some LandRover Fella and 4X4 fans were against me.

I was that guy we are not against anyone ,all are equal
Read all my posts form post one to last I have maintained that the Thar IS overpriced ,no doubt about it . In one of my posts I have said mahindra has given a really Killer price to It .

This is 21st century and if M&M wanted to keep old design, OK, but give top-notch quality.

I agree if you add the word 'IN finishing' Quality has been better compared to 20 years back (ask me I am a customer/victim ).
We see less & less mahindras broken down on roads/offroads nowadays .

Also is there a real compititer to Thar which dosent have atleast 15+ years old design ? ( Namly gypsy - Tata's dont have any real off roader in comparision except military Sumo 4x4, then again its age old ) the point is forget mahindras , there is no real 21 century offroader made in India ( In this Segment ) till date.

For some spending 7 - 8 lakh would be nothing but for 99% they will see the value. Common Mahindra.

I feel the same

This is offtopic but relevant , I have owned 3 Land Rovers till date ( keep aside other vehicles ) maintained & restored by myself in addition to that when My father was MLA ,( I was his aid for some time) we used our 540 since 1989 to reach villages & have used govt vehicles (Jeeps) prior to that.
So , I can tell you the Quality in those days WAS HORRIFIC & that made me turn away from mahindra .I am telling this, to tell you & all that I am No fan of mahindras .
BUT whats wrong in being fair ?

I can see a change after 1999 they have improved a lot ( may be not to what one expects )

Just a Few days before launch I visited the Plant & saw the Rolling chassis ,Its cmpletly different then what you asume ,it has huge potential

There is no compitition to Thar in its segment

Believe me I would have sold the Landy & bought a Thar Had it been priced correctly

Sudarshan

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by Sudarshan

Just a Few days before launch I visited the Plant & saw the Rolling chassis ,Its completly different then what you asume ,it has huge potential

Hi Sudarshan JEE,

Please explain the obvious differences

The rolling chassis is completely different from what?
1) 1985 MM540
2) 1986 JEEP Wrangler
3) 2004 NGCS
4) 2007 Mahindra Legend

From the off-road point of view is there any potential?

Regards,

Arka

PS - Any pics of the Rolling Chassis.

[hkborah]

The more I read this thread, the more I think the Thar is not worth the money.

I was just trying to compare the Thar CRDe 4x4 any other Jeep in the Mahindra stables - say a Scorpio 4x4. And mind you, this is not about which is a better offroader - let's look at it for what you pay - component by component. IMHO the Thar seems to cost more than double or triple the sum of its constituent parts as opposed to a Scorpio 4x4 for which the price seems justified.


Which is the cheaper of the suspensions, which is the cheaper of the engines, which is the cheaper of the dashboards, the interiors (whatver), the chassis, the body shell AC, hard top whatever.....

In perspective, it the 6 lakh worth it for a Thar CRDe?

[khan_sultan]

Interesting conversations & different viewpoints that have been mentioned here which makes the discussion interesting.


- The Thar is wonderful car to drive. Infact amongst VERY FEW cars which are such a pleasure to drive in both the city & the highway. Driving the Thar will FOR SURE bring a smile to your face. Sure there are few ergonomic issues but no major deal breakers here..

- The Thar is a more than capable off-roader for MOST people's off-roading needs. (let's leave it at that and not get into IFS etc etc here). But yes, people with their existing MM540/Gypsy's arn't going to be dumping their off-roaders for this.

- The positioning of the Thar as a 'lifestyle' vehicle is apt and a market exists for such a vehicle. There is NO competition to the Thar in this segment.

- The pricing is subjective and some may feel it is overpriced, some may feel it is ok. I, personally, feel it overpriced (ONLY because of the lack of A/C & HT) but then it is for people to make their individual opinions about the price.

So what's the issue??

- In it's current form/features it is not really suitable as a practical highway/long distance tourer in Indian conditions. You for SURE need A/C & HT for personal comfort & to keep your luggage/belongings secure in India.

- Interiors: Let's separate 2 things -- the design/features etc & the quality/fit-n-finish. While one may not expect two tone, beige interiors, push button this, push button that.... but as paying customers we do expect that even a spartan/basic interior is done with quality fit-n-finish.


So, what's next from here:

- Hoping that Mahindra takes inputs and implements the small but necessary steps to make this wonderful product a market success that it deserves to be.

- Potential customers of the Thar (whoever were thinking about it), visit the showroom and see the product for themselves -- inside out. Test drive it and make their judgment. I can assure that it will bring a smile to your face when you drive it. Can you live with the interiors/fit-n-finish is a personal choice that you would have to make :-) You have all the possible 'things to look out for' listed already in this review.


PS: As enthusiasts and auto-knowledgeable folks we may engage in an 'intellectual' discussion on Mahindra's constraints, budget and why this and why that.. but a paying customer on the street couldn't care less and his buying decision would not be swayed either way by 'oh.. this was developed on just a budget of 2.5 crores compared to the budget of 600 crores for the scorpio, hence I am ok with this interior quality'.

The customer is smart and wants VFM. Now for some, Thar in it's existing form may be seen as VFM and for some it may be the V2 Thar..!!!

EDIT
PPS: I personally don't see any harm/issue in 200 different people repeatedly crying hoarse about the interiors & lack of A/C/HT if this makes Mahindra take notice & do something about it. We as customers have everything to gain. Who wouldn't like better fit-n-finish in their vehicle & comfort of a factory fitted A/C, HT

[Sudarshan]

Originally Posted by ex670c

Hi Sudarshan JEE,

Please explain the obvious differences

The rolling chassis is completely different from what?
1) 1985 MM540

AFAIK & IMHO YES, I am not going to explain . I mean you can rampup a demo car & see it to your satisfaction

OR WE can visit plant & do it together ? what say ya ? I will sponcer half your trip ( atleast 3ac fair to Pune ,a stay at my home & Nasik Trip )
I am serious

2) 1986 JEEP Wrangler
3) 2004 NGCS
4) 2007 Mahindra Legend

There are Some differences ( come on Arkjee , )

From the off-road point of view is there any potential?

Hell YA ,HUGE , Its gona beat the Ghost out of us if we try & modify it to whatever level we want .This can be a hell of a Vehicle if you can do .

In other words , Its a CHALLENGE for a modifier BUT will pay greatly if he/she succeeds

PS - Any pics of the Rolling Chassis.

Looks like 'they' are not letting us see that easily

Sudarshan (less JEE )

[roy_libran]

Originally Posted by khan_sultan

- In it's current form/features it is not really suitable as a practical highway/long distance tourer in Indian conditions. You for SURE need A/C & HT for personal comfort & to keep your luggage/belongings secure in India.
PPS: I personally don't see any harm/issue in 200 different people repeatedly crying hoarse about the interiors & lack of A/C/HT if this makes Mahindra take notice & do something about it. We as customers have everything to gain. Who wouldn't like better fit-n-finish in their vehicle & comfort of a factory fitted A/C, HT

Absolutely agree! A/C and HT will seal the deal for about 90% of the prospective customers. Everything else, can be managed with low cost and complexity.

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by Sudarshan

AFAIK & IMHO YES, I am not going to explain . I mean you can rampup a demo car & see it to your satisfaction

OR WE can visit plant & do it together ? what say ya ? I will sponcer half your trip ( atleast 3ac fair to Pune ,a stay at my home & Nasik Trip )
I am serious

There are Some differences ( come on Arkjee , )

Hell YA ,HUGE , Its gona beat the Ghost out of us if we try & modify it to whatever level we want .This can be a hell of a Vehicle if you can do .

In other words , Its a CHALLENGE for a modifier BUT will pay greatly if he/she succeeds

Looks like 'they' are not letting us see that easily

Hi Sudarshan JEE,

Thank you for your most generous offer.

The 1985 MM540 was a C-Section (Boxed-In) Chassis, and the 2011 vehicles are NGCS (Box-Section)

I Agree, There is a huge difference between C-Section and Box-Section.

The 1986 JEEP Wrangler YJ/2004 NGCS MM550XD/2007 Legend/2010 Thar MDI/2010 Thar CRDe Share a lot of similarities.

The Long member is the Same/Similar

The YJ Wrangler/NGCSMM550XD/Thar CRDe share similar Long member.

In fact the Thar CRDe is developed on the NGCS MM550XD Chassis, with different Cross-Members for the Gearbox & T-Case (Thar CRDe) and Mounts and Brackets for the IFS.

Are you implying that M&M has developed a "special" Chassis for the Thar CRDe, that will really cost billions.

Look at the rear Shackle position (in Chassis) in the YJ Wrangler/NGCSMM550XD/Thar CRDe/

Look at the space in front of the Radiator Grille in the Thar CRDe, and compare it with a NGCSMM550XD.

The biggest Clue is the MM540 body, indicates to a MM540 family Chassis.

The Torsional Rigidity (Same Extruded Long member) of a Chassis can be changed by adding or removing Cross-Members.

Since it is out in the showroom and we can buy it across the table we think it is new, please have a look at the NGCS MM550XD in Mumbai, Ravi's JEEP.

OFF_ROAD It will beat the Ghost out of anything IF we modify it, who would want to do that to a brand new 7L vehicle.

What modification do you have in mind? a List Please.

By applying JUGAAD to Parts-Bin Technology, across the counter, which is easier.

1) converting a Thar CRDe to Solid Axle
2)or Converting a NGCS MM550XD to M-Eagle+NGT530+Borg Warner,
3)or Thar MDI to M-Eagle+NGT530+Borg Warner+57"OKBJ+53FFRA.

Regards,

Arka

[GeekSrik]

khan_sultan, this is the most MIND BOGGLING review I have come across since some time now on team-bhp. you have been spot on on the comments about exteriors, interiors, the cheap build quality, the rugged engine, and you have presented the most brutal test reports about this car. I also feel like saying its a cheap car. but then one has to realize some car like indica V1 also had niggles, and so does the thar. considering what mahindra has done before, if they are able to provide roofing of sorts, a/c and airbags + remove all the glitches you have mentioned, this car will sizzle in the city. ABS/Airbags, and some real neat cushioning and increasing the price by another 1-2 lacs, I'd bet there would still be takers for this one even at that price. Anyone providing 16" wheels, which would clear most road humps around cities in india, and a 100+ bhp engine with oodles of torque in low RPMs are always in business!

Again, very very laborious review which does team-bhp proud.

[slalom]

I have been following the Thar for quite sometime , I think Mahindra should take a cue from all this discussions and try to make the plastics a little more better .

I went to check the Thar in the Showroom on Dec 29 th ( Kottayam ) and was concentrating on the suspension ,the chassis and the engine , and my driver who accompanied me was bothered about the plastics and the imperfections on the body etc .

I wasn't expecting any information form the dealer , dropped my name and number directly to the manager asking him to update me about the TD as well as the AC issue , no information till now .

I always liked the CJ 340 and couple of my friends bought it brand new and never bothered to even use it due to the lack of AC etc , the times have changed now and Mahindra should get their act together regarding the quality of the interiors and the quality of customer service .

The irony of the Thar communication , "Thar Hates Tar "... infact the Thar loves mostly the tar I guess .

thanks for the great review guys !!

[Sudarshan]

Originally Posted by ex670c

I Agree, There is a huge difference between C-Section and Box-Section.

Its going to give us the strength ( torsional ) that we always wanted .

Are you implying that M&M has developed a "special" Chassis for the Thar CRDe, that will really cost billions.

NO not even remotely as I dont know the facts about this particular point .

Since it is out in the showroom and we can buy it across the table we think it is new, please have a look at the NGCS MM550XD in Mumbai, Ravi's JEEP.

driven Ravis Jeep , Thar will do all that it does ,but with good rubbers ,and with lot of ease .

OFF_ROAD It will beat the Ghost out of anything IF we modify it, who would want to do that to a brand new 7L vehicle.

Sure why not BUT compare it to any existing stok similar version , There is no compitition ( stock Thar vs stock other similar vehicle)

You are right I certainly wont modify a 7 L + new vehicle ,at least not for a year or two till it becomes old enough

What modification do you have in mind? a List Please.

first of all a direct 4" lift , 9x16 ( 35" ? ) tyres , total widening of track by 8 inches (can be achived with larger tyres ) , FFRA, & multipoint roll cage this is minimum .Rest can remain stock ( Chassis ,engine ,GB ,T case ) for trials

By applying JUGAAD to Parts-Bin Technology, across the counter, which is easier.

No , but by the hard way

1) converting a Thar CRDe to Solid Axle
2)or Converting a NGCS MM550XD to M-Eagle+NGT530+Borg Warner,
3)or Thar MDI to M-Eagle+NGT530+Borg Warner+57"OKBJ+53FFRA.

NO , nothing like this , I said the hard way , 1 year & 2L It can be a hell of a project

Sudarshan ( Less JEE )

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by Sudarshan

Sure why not BUT compare it to any existing stok similar version , There is no compitition ( stock Thar vs stock other similar vehicle)

first of all a direct 4" lift , 9x16 ( 35" ? ) tyres , total widening of track by 8 inches (can be achived with larger tyres ) , FFRA, & multipoint roll cage this is minimum .Rest can remain stock ( Chassis ,engine ,GB ,T case ) for trials

Hi Sudarshan JEE,

What comparison do you want to do with a stock vehicle?
i) Road-Abilities
ii) Off-Road Abilities
iii) Bolt-On Modifications/Upgrades.

A direct 4" Lift of What?
Will the Front Steering and Suspension support the weight & dimensions of 9.00X16 ?

By "hard way" do you mean your own custom axles and suspension?

Regards,

Arka

Regards,

Arka

[speedy]

Originally Posted by ex670c

Sudarshan JEE,

Please have a look at other IFS 4WD vehicles, like, Ford Endy, Mitsubishi Pajero, Toyota Fortuner, Force Gurkha, I have never seen them tip forward.

Sir, please add a Bullbar and a winch to them with the stock setup and you will watch them tip forward too.

Originally Posted by navpreet318

Why is the hue and cry over the Thar being 7.3 lakhs? Its ex showroom cost is pretty less.5.99 lakhs in delhi.6.28 in mumbai.Why are you zeroing it to bangalore? Its not made solely made for bangalore.

Bang on.

Originally Posted by bblost

I have just one question.

Would Mahindra have dared to release the Thar with such crappy and potentially dangerous interiors in the US.

Is it ok if we Indians cut our fingers.

Do we not bleed when our fingers get cut.

Sir accidents do happen, so do you stop the vehicle from being sold. I had cut my finger while fidling with the Rolls Royce in London, So does that mean Rolls dont sell their cars anymore or will they rectify their rear table design. Please get realistic now.

Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl

Thar costs 7.01 lacs in Mumbai on road. Plus 48,000 dealer AC option.

How can you take the AC cost into the cost of the vehicle, that is a dealer option and not a compultion by the company. The Rs 48,000 for the AC is not added to every thar sold.

The cost is 7.01 lakhs individual and 7.46 lakhs for company Bombay registerd.

Originally Posted by Cyrus43

Next we shall start comparing the Thar to a second hand Civic or something. Really guys, Grow up.

2. Factory Fitted AC

Please dont give stupid outlandish things here. Imagine yourself as a manufacturer please.

Agreed to most things said here, but the AC is not Factory fitted.

Originally Posted by navpreet318

Also regarding the modification bit.Since the jeep is being shipped from near Mumbai itself wouldn't it be better to get the jeep shipped directly to the modifier, once the choices have been made, instead of it first getting shipped to north india and then back to mumbai and then back to north india.

The procedure as i was given to understand is that the car would leave the factory and go to the Moification center. Once the options you have chosen are complete. Then only delivery is given. Someone had even posted the form.

Originally Posted by ex670c

OFF_ROAD It will beat the Ghost out of anything IF we modify it, who would want to do that to a brand new 7L vehicle.

What modification do you have in mind? a List Please.

Sir the Sole aim of the car is not Offroading alone. As far as "who would want to modify a brand new 7l vehicle, YOU are reading his post.

WHat are the Modifications you suggest i should do to make it beat the Ghost out of anything, a list please.