[Cyrus43]

Originally Posted by discoverwild

Hi Cyrus,
We are not biased. It is the love for the jeep that most of the folks here are up in arms. Too bad, Mahindra doesn't want to listen to them.

Having had the Gypsy King for 9 years, except for the small seats and the lack of space upfront, I have been pretty happy about it for 127000 kms or so. Never had a breakdown other than a torn radiator hose once and a broken leafspring.

I have never seen so many ill-fitting parts and visible nuts and bolts anywhere other than the Thar, not even in the Sumo. Heck, not even in an autorickshaw.

The THAR was created because someone (we all know who) saw the need in teamBHP for something that goes well on and off the road. Are you trying to say that the THAR was a corporate decesion through and through?? Of course not!! This was, is and always will be a vehicle driven from one preson and later a teams passion!!

Originally Posted by Jaggu

As far as i know FE was not in the list of things when the test drive agenda was finalized. It was just an observation that happened. And please dont kid me with how difficult it is to measure, any tom dick and harry with some common sense can do a FE test accurate to atleast a km or two. It is not rocket science!

Say that to all the sleepless nights I have spent doing FE runs.......

I have right from version 1 till date. Milecruncher owns one of the current gen, maybe he can comment further.

We have a brand new bolero too, and the fit and finish is debatable.

Can you or for that matter anyone from R&D team give it in writing that it never went back to surgeons table after the event and all the so called readings were within permissible limit?

Sure. And what will that prove? And which readings are you talking about??

By the way i have been holding back on this. Did that Thar complete all the obstacles on day 1, 2 and 3?? Can someone assure me that Thar was as stock as a showroom Thar and was running no trick bits including MLD, same engine and remaps??? Lets really not get into that now.

I am sure dad will be more than happy to give 521 to you for analysis. What say Spikey

No actually as I said before, we were running LSD's from an M5, Titanium suspension components and a Twin Turbo V8!!! But from the outside it all looked stock. I think it was running 1002 BHP that day. Why 1002 you ask? We had to beat the veyron na!!

As a consumer we have all the rights to do that. You would also if your bumblebee panels cut your finger while riding it.

Ahh yes, my bumblebee. Can fill more than just a page of complaints about that one. Still LOVE it though!

Advance wishes on the new buy, its a great car and great adventure tourer which can do quite a bit of offroading also

It is a LONNGGGG time away. so...the wait begins.

Is it because the test track is not harsh enough?!

Guys chill, no one is saying its a bad 4x4, but dont try to make it something which it is not.

HAHA!! Id love to see "built" jeeps pass through that without doors falling off!!

I didnt get the last point though. What is the Thar not?? An Extreme off roader(which it is) or a cool Vehicle(Which it is...even without an AC) or a lifestyle vehicle. (which it is). Actually, it should take part in the upcoming drags too. I want to see how quick it does the quarter mile!!

[Sutripta]

@ Spike
Is the metal preparation/ anti rust treatment the same in both Kandivili and Nasik? And what is it. How long will the body (of the MDI) last in the NE monsoons.

@ others
No hardtop as of now. So how weatherproof is the softtop. Will the softtop sag and act as a rainwater reservoir? Whats happened to Roplas and Nicholas?

Regards
Sutripta

[khan_sultan]

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

....Yes we have Belgian pave tracks, the Thar has done several hundred cycles without any so called "CV joint failures".

Spikey, for a person who has paid 10L+ for his Scorpio, spent enormous amount of money on modifying it, brings it for off-roads and ALWAYS (without fail) has had some issue or the other with the vehicle -- including breaking the CV joints 4 times; the Belgian choclate paved tests or even moon crater paved tests do not matter one bit. You need to see the frustration on the face of that person, the money spent, the hopelessness... to realize the seriousness of the issue.

Customers pay more attention to and are influenced by how the product behaves/performs in the real world. Now imagine, 50 people there seeing that CV joint being broken. What do you think is going to happen? I have seen that happen multiple times over and let me tell you, it ain't a good feeling.

So, when the Thar has same/similar setup, such concerns are bound to be raised. Same goes for the other issues raised. Now, MM as a manufacturer can brush them aside, laugh them away, be indifferent to them, or take those as genuine inputs/feedback and do something about it.

....I remember someone telling me this story:- An Engineer from Lotus happened to visit the torture tracks to see how vehicles are tested for durability. After observing for some time he said "Is this the way you test your vehicles...

Let me tell you a REAL story -- happening right now:

Customers walking out of showrooms saying to MM: "Is this the way you build your vehicles"

[Cyrus43]

Originally Posted by khan_sultan

Spikey, for a person who has paid 10L+ for his Scorpio, spent enormous amount of money on modifying it, brings it for off-roads and ALWAYS (without fail) has had some issue or the other with the vehicle -- including breaking the CV joints 4 times; the Belgian choclate paved tests or even moon crater paved tests do not matter one bit. You need to see the frustration on the face of that person, the money spent, the hopelessness... to realize the seriousness of the issue.

Customers pay more attention to and are influenced by how the product behaves/performs in the real world. Now imagine, 50 people there seeing that CV joint being broken. What do you think is going to happen? I have seen that happen multiple times over and let me tell you, it ain't a good feeling.

So, when the Thar has same/similar setup, such concerns are bound to be raised. Same goes for the other issues raised. Now, MM as a manufacturer can brush them aside, laugh them away, be indifferent to them, or take those as genuine inputs/feedback and do something about it.


Let me tell you a REAL story -- happening right now:

Customers walking out of showrooms saying to MM: "Is this the way you build your vehicles"

HAs the suspension been modified in this scorpio as well. Are you sure it is just the IFS acting up or is it the mods done to the IFS that is the problem in the first place? Just a thrid party view to he problem.

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

Arka, if people like you call that as a Body lift then only heavens can help. You are spreading confusion man, see below post on how you have confused Jaggu. Do you know why is it like that?

Jaggu, that is not a body lift!

Hi Spike,

You are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT the Reinforcement Channel is there under 2 Body Mounts under the Tub/Before the Wheel/Rear Shock Absorber.

http://www.team-bhp.com/carpics/mahi...ah-thar-01.jpg

This is noticed in very original body shells (not repaired)

This Reinforcement Channel usually fill s up with dust and rusts away and when body beds are replaced, taller Body Beds are fitted (Commander Kit).

The Noticeable Difference in the NGCS Body Mounts are Heavier Body Mounts on the Chassis, and Wider Channels under the Body and Heavier Brackets.

Please treat this as a personal apology.

I do not wish to bias an unbiased Review.

Regards,

Arka

[discoverwild]

Cyrus,

I think everyone on Team-BHP have the highest regard for your father, no doubt that he was the one who made the Thar a reality. But the entire Mahindra team trying to hide behind his vision, while dishing out stuff like a local garage is not something we would digest.

We have all rated the Thar for what it is and what it isn't. However, there are some who would like us to buy it with our eyes closed. Sorry to say, this isn't the late 70s or 80s anymore.

Once again, we are proud to be in the acquaintance of your father and I know that none here mean any disrespect to him, not even Arka (who has been vehemently opposing the IFS from day one, two years ago). Like I said, DB Sir's aura alone is not going to help sell the Thar, in this condition.

[Cyrus43]

Sadly what you say is hitting the nail in the head. But then there are greater factors at play which cannot be changed by one mans views. Im sure things will continue to be better in the future. However, All said and done, something that Looks like a Jeep and still goes like a modern car and still has all the off road capabilities like a Jeep is a pretty good package IMHO.

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by Cyrus43

Say that to all the sleepless nights I have spent doing FE runs.

Instead you should have asked BD to help, help was so close

Originally Posted by Cyrus43

We have a brand new bolero too, and the fit and finish is debatable.

But not glaring, is it?

Originally Posted by Cyrus43

Sure. And what will that prove? And which readings are you talking about??

Toe, Camber, Caster. Let us keep it simple.

Originally Posted by Cyrus43

I am sure dad will be more than happy to give 521 to you for analysis. What say Spikey

I will be glad to do some OTR's also with boing 747

Originally Posted by Cyrus43

No actually as I said before, we were running LSD's from an M5, Titanium suspension components and a Twin Turbo V8!!! But from the outside it all looked stock. I think it was running 1002 BHP that day. Why 1002 you ask? We had to beat the veyron na!!

Dont try to fool us, M&M cant put a decent dash together and you are talking about so much of technology from them. Even my 10 year old nephew will not buy in

Originally Posted by Cyrus43

HAHA!! Id love to see "built" jeeps pass through that without doors falling off!!
====
Actually, it should take part in the upcoming drags too. I want to see how quick it does the quarter mile!!

Just one name Gypsy!

Originally Posted by Cyrus43

HAs the suspension been modified in this scorpio as well. Are you sure it is just the IFS acting up or is it the mods done to the IFS that is the problem in the first place? Just a thrid party view to he problem.

Lift Yes.

Yes body has been lifted, no suspension mods if am not mistaken

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

Can you or for that matter anyone from R&D team give it in writing that it never went back to surgeons table after the event and all the so called readings were within permissible limit?

By the way i have been holding back on this. Did that Thar complete all the obstacles on day 1, 2 and 3?? Can someone assure me that Thar was as stock as a showroom Thar and was running no trick bits including MLD, same engine and remaps???

521 never went back to any Doctor or Surgeon. After AKC it must have run close to 15K and we have not changed even the engine oil!

As I have worked on 521, I know what was done on it. The only non production items on it were 1) Tyres 2) Snorkel (temporary). It was running production maps and had no MLD. Jaggu, the Thar did all the obstacles on Day1, not sure about the 2nd day as I was with Vinod among the pilot vehicles.

Originally Posted by Cyrus43

I am sure dad will be more than happy to give 521 to you for analysis. What say Spikey

Oh Yes!

Originally Posted by Sutripta

@ Spike
Is the metal preparation/ anti rust treatment the same in both Kandivili and Nasik? And what is it. How long will the body (of the MDI) last in the NE monsoons.

There is a HUGE difference!

Spike

[discoverwild]

Please get someone from the Mahindra team (Other than DB Sir, Spike, VN) to have a look at the posts here and hope DB Sir can give them a piece of his mind (ours included).

Jeep looks - Check
Speed of a Modern Car - Check
Moderate Off road capabilities - Check
Interiors - Reality Check
Dash board quality and design
Seat alignment
Innumerable nuts and bolts
Lousy tailgate (looks and function)
Rough edge plastics
Rough sheet metal - Hazardous

[Cyrus43]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

Instead you should have asked BD to help, help was so close



But not glaring, is it?



Toe, Camber, Caster. Let us keep it simple.



I will be glad to do some OTR's also with boing 747



Dont try to fool us, M&M cant put a decent dash together and you are talking about so much of technology from them. Even my 10 year old nephew will not buy in



Just one name Gypsy!



Lift Yes.

Yes body has been lifted, no suspension mods if am not mistaken

And a Body Lift doesnt ruin balance and geometry. Really??

And about the FE runs, I wasnt doing it for Mahindra. It was for a Publication I used to work for. Most of you know which one.. so...

Also, He lives in Nasik and I used to live in bbay.. My God we are really off topic now. But let me just say, the FE figures you see in auto mags and the Arai figures are done with some really long drawn testing procedures. And all of us have different driving styles, so our FE will always differ. My Bolero gives me much less than the 8-9 kmpl it should give and that is because of my heavy foot.

[Hammy]

In my honest opinion, the much awaited beast was a big let down for many of us. There's nothing much to talk about it other than the engine and the exteriors to a certain extent!

Thanks to the explicit review by Khan & Tejas. I have a complete different perception about Mahindra and Thar as a whole. I have no comments about the interiors, i'll just say they're filthy and unsafe. As Khan sir pointed out, Jeep inmates would bruise their hands out there, buggers have not even filed the sharp/rough edges, ridiculous! All you Thar owners, better wear your gloves .

After seeing the pics, I am actually not confident about the build quality, underhood and other mechanical parts which Mahindra has used in the Thar. I could see rust already in some of the front suspension pics given in the review. No wonder Mahindra have come out with such a pleasing price tag for this Jeep, which I think is costly now for the Quality they are providing.

Guess Mahindra built the Thar with the mindset that its only going to be used by Farmers/milkmen for carrying loads. I'm offended, thanks to Mahindra!!

[salilpawar1]

What a review! Great job guys. Respect for the dedication.

About the criticism:

1. IFS v/s solid axle: Both have their own advantages and disadvantages. It has been discussed to death now. Even a layman like me knows all the advantages and disadvantages by heart.

2. Fit and Finish: M&M needs to improve on this front. It is poor in many issues. Corners have been cut (quite literally. LOL). No point in repeating the same thing again and again and again. And from the look of it, it is comparable to most other Mahindras (I drive one, so I know). And the other Mahindras do sell, by the way. For instance, about the glovebox, I don't know about hardcore off-roaders but how many users or "life-stylers" for that matter really open the glovebox on a regular basis? My Indica's glovebox is of the most pathetic quality but still it has survived for seven years, so have the tacky stalks and switches.

3. A/C and H/T: I am pretty sure that M&M will be coming up with something. Agreed that it should have been available from day 1 but now that it has not been offered, give the company some time. The A/C part has been taken care of. It is available at the dealer level with warranty. If the H/T doesn't come any time soon, even I will join the bashing. Don't worry.

4. Pricing: It's surprising that some still feel that pricing a product is equal to the arithmetic sum of the component parts + profit. There are so many factors involved. A rebuilt jeep will ALWAYS be cheaper than a Thar, no matter what. . Simple logic, that is. Export markets get better quality materials because not just because the other markets are demanding but the price there is also higher. And you can't compare prices of two countries by just plain currency conversion. There are many other factors involved. And introducing a new variant is not as simple as introducing a Business Version of Windows 7. A lot of technical and logistical things need to be taken into consideration for that.

My $0.02.

P.S. Before you dismiss me off as a Mahindra fanboy, I am the maker of the now famous 'Hitler is frustrated with Thar launch Delay' spoof video.

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

521 never went back to any Doctor or Surgeon. After AKC it must have run close to 15K and we have not changed even the engine oil!

Stick to the suspension readings, was all that within allowed limits after that so called 15k kms? or dont you guys check it also?

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

The only non production items on it were 1) Tyres 2) Snorkel (temporary). It was running production maps and had no MLD. Jaggu, the Thar did all the obstacles on Day1, not sure about the 2nd day as I was with Vinod among the pilot vehicles.

Ok i believe you. And even on day 1 i dont remember coming on the lake bed in the evening, did it?

Originally Posted by Cyrus43

And a Body Lift doesnt ruin balance and geometry. Really??

Did i ever say it wont? You asked, i replied.

Ok so this means Thar also CANNOT be lifted without ruining the balance right? Anyways it was know fact, so tata bye bye big fat tyres

Originally Posted by Cyrus43

And about the FE runs, I wasnt doing it for Mahindra. It was for a Publication I used to work for.
=======
Also, He lives in Nasik and I used to live in bbay..

Get an idea Sirjiiii! In this era of mobile phones does it matter if its Nasik or Timbaktu? Well Timbaktu am not sure about signal.

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by Cyrus43

@Arka, would you like a nice reclining chair with a ten way massager with maybe a jacuzzi in the back in the Thar?? Most of the things you have asked are really a little over what you can expect from a normal manufacturing unit like Mahindra. Please man, as Spikey said...It is time to use your Kidneys.

Originally Posted by Sudarshan

There will be new IFS,( for Thar ) specially for BHPians , ( fitted by MM ) have a look

Attachment 478498

Sudarshan

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

Lovely!


LOL! good one Cyrus! Yes we have Belgian pave tracks, the Thar has done several hundred cycles without any so called "CV joint failures".

I remember someone telling me this story:- An Engineer from Lotus happened to visit the torture tracks to see how vehicles are tested for durability. After observing for some time he said "Is this the way you test your vehicles"

Hi Cyrus,

I would Just want a Solid Axle and Sump Guard, The Rest I'll manage.

Unfortunately what ever I asked for as in the M&M Parts Bin, do you want me to give M&M Part No.s

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ve...ml#post1079439

@ Sudarshan, that is INDEPENDENT SUSPENSION and will surely foul with the Crank Case

@ Spike, I have seen a Scorpio IFS Busted, and another pretty badly mauled in TPC2006.

In Off-Road use under 4WD Lo the wheels accelerate and decelerate rapidly, add to that, the rapid cycling of the steering and the CV Joint pops because it gets operated over its rated angle of rotation.

This is especially noticed in climbs or descents, where the Front Axle has to do considerable amount of work.

Why does the CV Joint come under this effect?

Because the IFS has more moving parts, and under full load (Caster/camber/toe-in) the Joints in the Upper Arm/Lower Arm and Steering TRE, develops a momentary play/slack and pop goes the CV.

Some Solid Axles also use CV Axles like Gypsy, Tata 407, Tata LPTA/ TMB, Leyland Stallion, Nissan 4W73.

But in the Solid Axle the King Pin/Ball-Joint Knuckles and Solid Axle Tubes Take the Strain.

Regards,

Arka