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Old 9th June 2008, 11:22   #76
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Originally Posted by Jr Godzilla View Post
add to it pretty unreliable too.
At the moment I find it reliable enough to be my daily drive (logged about 20k Kms till now). However I will reserve my comments till I have the car for a reasonable period of time.
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Old 9th June 2008, 12:33   #77
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jkdas : Steer's 3L too was 138bhp
High, with a lil help from friends .. . Not as Stock.
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Old 9th June 2008, 16:53   #78
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Guess what! sooner or later they will do that.
Remember early 60s when Merc Benz had tied up with tata to built trucks, namely 312 (4x2 and 4x4).
They tied up in 1954, not early sixties.

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Tata copied their highly successfull L6 motor. and created there own 1210D and 1210, se. Merc were so furious that they voided their contract but in the end TATA was hugely sucessfull in selling their 1210D, which you can still see running in many part of the country.
Not true. The MB motor belonged to the OM series, not L. Tata didn't copy it; they didn't have to; why would you copy something when you have valid legal rights to it? In developing the local 692 engine for 1210, Tata improved the original MB design. Tata's engine developed more HP but consumed lesser fuel than the original MB engine it used to make under license!

The technical collaboration between Tata Motors and MB came to an end in 1969 as a result of the expiry (not termination) of the 15-year technical collaboration agreement. It wasn't renewed because during those 15 years, TM took the trouble of learning and absorbing the collaborator's technology, developing indigenous R&D capability. It didn't require spoonfeeding from its collaborator unlike other local manufacturers. MB was never furious at anything and the financial collaboration continued between the two partners. It continues even today with MB holding over 6% equity in TM.
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Old 10th June 2008, 00:31   #79
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They tied up in 1954, not early sixties.



Not true. The MB motor belonged to the OM series, not L. Tata didn't copy it; they didn't have to; why would you copy something when you have valid legal rights to it? In developing the local 692 engine for 1210, Tata improved the original MB design. Tata's engine developed more HP but consumed lesser fuel than the original MB engine it used to make under license!

The technical collaboration between Tata Motors and MB came to an end in 1969 as a result of the expiry (not termination) of the 15-year technical collaboration agreement. It wasn't renewed because during those 15 years, TM took the trouble of learning and absorbing the collaborator's technology, developing indigenous R&D capability. It didn't require spoonfeeding from its collaborator unlike other local manufacturers. MB was never furious at anything and the financial collaboration continued between the two partners. It continues even today with MB holding over 6% equity in TM.
I guess you are not correct!
1st tata were not allowed to make the engines locally, 2nd they were not allowed to export the trucks.
TATA not only made a copy of 312 engine (we had two of these with 4x4) but also exported the trucks to african dictators who were a big fan of hitler.
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Old 10th June 2008, 10:38   #80
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.......
The 2.2 DICOR only produces 140bhp, but the same engine as fitted to Peugeot and Citroen crossovers (no low gears) is tuned to 165bhp. And 4-door saloons go in excess of 175bhp.
Yep, the 2.2 DICOR is capable of 180 BHP .... thr's one such personal project in BLR under testing... More update's once i get a extended drive ..... till then my lips are sealed !! sorry guy's
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Old 10th June 2008, 11:47   #81
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Yep, the 2.2 DICOR is capable of 180 BHP .... thr's one such personal project in BLR under testing... More update's once i get a extended drive ..... till then my lips are sealed !! sorry guy's
And I am all ears if it is a simple DIY removable job just before you go to the service station - kept the warranty and got some serious extra power too!!!
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Old 10th June 2008, 11:58   #82
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And I am all ears if it is a simple DIY removable job just before you go to the service station - kept the warranty and got some serious extra power too!!!
Noep its not a DIY but Service Center's would'nt know though ....
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Old 10th June 2008, 13:20   #83
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I guess you are not correct!
So you aren't yourself sure whether I am correct or not. Can you point out exactly which points in my post are incorrect instead of just guessing?

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Originally Posted by SirAlec View Post
1st tata were not allowed to make the engines locally,
Please substantiate your statement by citing independent and credible sources.

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Originally Posted by SirAlec View Post
2nd they were not allowed to export the trucks.
Partly true. Exports were permitted but only to limited territories. It is always like that in technical collaborations. The IPR holder always imposes geographic restrictions on its licensee to protect the interest of its other licensees (in other territories) as well as to protect itself. This is especially so when the third-world-licensee is able to sell the product in question at a much lower price because of lower labour and/or manufacturing costs.

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Originally Posted by SirAlec View Post
TATA not only made a copy of 312 engine (we had two of these with 4x4)
You copy/reverse-engineer something when you don't have access to the technical drawings/blue prints/manuals etc. of the original product. Since Tata had access to them, why would they copy?

What had really happened was this: The TC Agreement expired and the original product of the collaborator was further developed independently of the collaborator. It may have been a derivative product but was differentiated enough to be called and designated as a different product. Had Tata really infringed the designs of Mercedes Benz, it would have faced law suits all over the world, just like Bajaj had to face from Vespa when after the expiry of the collaboration, Bajaj started exporting scooters derived from Vespa's original design.

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but also exported the trucks to african dictators who were a big fan of hitler.
Exports were permitted even during the validity of TC agreement, although in a limited way. There was absolutely no restriction after the expiry of the TC agreement in 1969. So, naturally, exports jumped significantly. Tata trucks were exported to all continents as far back as the 1970s.

The dictator in question was Idi Amin of Uganda. He had told the TM guys, "You are giving me Hitler's truck! But I'll buy it. I like Hitler!" I'm not too sure whether the statement was made before the expiry of the TC agreement (i.e. before 1969 when the trucks indeed bore the Mercedes star and name and could be loosely described the way they were by Mr Amin) or afterwards (when the differentiated and improved trucks were simply called Tata).

Incidentally, even in the case of Vespa-Bajaj dispute, Vespa was successful in obtaining favourable orders from court in some countries (it had failed in others) not because it was able to establish the Bajaj scooter as a Vespa design (they couldn't establish this) but because the salesmen at some Bajaj dealers had misrepresented the Bajaj scooters as Vespa. They had claimed to unsuspecting buyers that "Vespa's Indian operations got nationalised and so Vespa has become Bajaj. It's actually Vespa." So, design infringement couldn't be established but only passing-off.

I hope I've cleared your doubts.

Last edited by directinjection : 10th June 2008 at 13:31.
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Old 10th June 2008, 14:21   #84
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Tata did not pay $2 Billion to just "look" at jaguar and land rover.

Hell Yes - Sooner or later a common platform among Land Rover and Tata SUV will be used. Common platform is the way to go these days when it comes to mass production (like swift and SX4)

Why should Tata invest millions again to redesign a new engine, instead of doing research and improving on existing Land Rover engines!

I think they have already learnt the lesson of not to reinvent the wheel - from Estate and Sierra.
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Old 10th June 2008, 23:58   #85
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Noep its not a DIY but Service Center's would'nt know though ....
They most probably will if by chance they bring on the laptop.

And also this add-on should not mess up with the 3rd gear of the 2.2. After 10k km the gears have settled nicely and the 3rd gear range is now between 20-60 kph. That gear is what makes a Safari [2.2] so easy in the city now.

Last edited by adc : 11th June 2008 at 00:02.
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Old 11th June 2008, 00:41   #86
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Originally Posted by directinjection View Post
So you aren't yourself sure whether I am correct or not. Can you point out exactly which points in my post are incorrect instead of just guessing?



Please substantiate your statement by citing independent and credible sources.



Partly true. Exports were permitted but only to limited territories. It is always like that in technical collaborations. The IPR holder always imposes geographic restrictions on its licensee to protect the interest of its other licensees (in other territories) as well as to protect itself. This is especially so when the third-world-licensee is able to sell the product in question at a much lower price because of lower labour and/or manufacturing costs.



You copy/reverse-engineer something when you don't have access to the technical drawings/blue prints/manuals etc. of the original product. Since Tata had access to them, why would they copy?

What had really happened was this: The TC Agreement expired and the original product of the collaborator was further developed independently of the collaborator. It may have been a derivative product but was differentiated enough to be called and designated as a different product. Had Tata really infringed the designs of Mercedes Benz, it would have faced law suits all over the world, just like Bajaj had to face from Vespa when after the expiry of the collaboration, Bajaj started exporting scooters derived from Vespa's original design.



Exports were permitted even during the validity of TC agreement, although in a limited way. There was absolutely no restriction after the expiry of the TC agreement in 1969. So, naturally, exports jumped significantly. Tata trucks were exported to all continents as far back as the 1970s.

The dictator in question was Idi Amin of Uganda. He had told the TM guys, "You are giving me Hitler's truck! But I'll buy it. I like Hitler!" I'm not too sure whether the statement was made before the expiry of the TC agreement (i.e. before 1969 when the trucks indeed bore the Mercedes star and name and could be loosely described the way they were by Mr Amin) or afterwards (when the differentiated and improved trucks were simply called Tata).

Incidentally, even in the case of Vespa-Bajaj dispute, Vespa was successful in obtaining favourable orders from court in some countries (it had failed in others) not because it was able to establish the Bajaj scooter as a Vespa design (they couldn't establish this) but because the salesmen at some Bajaj dealers had misrepresented the Bajaj scooters as Vespa. They had claimed to unsuspecting buyers that "Vespa's Indian operations got nationalised and so Vespa has become Bajaj. It's actually Vespa." So, design infringement couldn't be established but only passing-off.

I hope I've cleared your doubts.
i don't have any doubts watsoever, as i always rely upon facts. search more, (a tip- search independent resources.)

'i guess' as in a sentence. and not literally.
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Old 11th June 2008, 01:23   #87
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Originally Posted by ashok.harish View Post
The thing that got me excited was what i have marked in bold. A Safari with 200+ BHP is enough good news for any civilised beast to cheer up. So guys is this news true??? Do we really get to see a 200+ Bhp wholly indigenous car in India.
Awesome news that.
I am going to consider buying one of those, when the new platform comes out.
If it does become a reality it will be a big step forward and a first.

Well done Tata.
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Old 11th June 2008, 12:59   #88
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Originally Posted by SirAlec View Post
i don't have any doubts watsoever, as i always rely upon facts. search more, (a tip- search independent resources.)
Instead of posting shallow and evasive one liners, why don't you produce the facts you claim to rely upon. If you think my statements are incorrect, please prove it - one by one, for each statement.
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Old 11th June 2008, 20:27   #89
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i had it in hardcopy. will scan and send you the detail article when i find it. surpriseingly i am not able to find the archive article online. It was written on telco's 50th aniversary by a leading mag.

Tell me one fact though, if the Benz had given the license (which is not) to produce the OM engine, why did it again issue license to bajjaj tempo later to compete with tata's 407 LCV.

Last edited by SirAlec : 11th June 2008 at 20:33.
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Old 11th June 2008, 21:14   #90
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Originally Posted by SirAlec View Post
i had it in hardcopy. will scan and send you the detail article when i find it. surpriseingly i am not able to find the archive article online. It was written on telco's 50th aniversary by a leading mag.

Tell me one fact though, if the Benz had given the license (which is not) to produce the OM engine, why did it again issue license to bajjaj tempo later to compete with tata's 407 LCV.
These are completely unrelated TC's. The TMB arrangement was born at a completely different set of timeframe as well as application from the Bajaj Tempo TC. The Traveller was never a competition to the 407 LCV, infact preceded it. The Truck version of the Traveller came much much later. For the 407 LCV project Telco had not sought foreign collaboration, against what was the norm of the time, like Toyota for DCM, Nissan for Allwyn, etc.
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