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Old 1st October 2013, 18:49   #3361
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Default Re: The Official Fuel Prices Thread

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
This point has been much discussed in this Forum in multiple threads. And it has been explained many times that it is not really loss on sale of diesel. But under recovery. So I am not even going to get into all of that again.
That subsidized diesel you seem to be worrying about is also ensuring cheaper electricity and cell phone coverage etc. The same costlier petrol is also ensuring that you get your LPG at a cheaper rate. We can go on and on cross ranting on this but its not going to solve anything.
Call it by any name, the fact remains the same. High petrol price, covers up for the under recoveries from diesel.
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Old 1st October 2013, 21:56   #3362
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Default Re: The Official Fuel Prices Thread

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
What you say is right. Any price increase hurts and the reason for price increase may be multiple, some under our control and some not. But what is appalling is to see this war or statements filled with anguish that Diesel car owners are having a field day. We are not focused on making the overall pricing correct. Or introducing changes in our public transport and roads to ensure lesser fuel wastage. But we all are ready to jump on fellow motorists that they are enjoying while we suffer. And what follows are those emotional portrayal of a poor car owner who is having difficulty to make ends meet due to increase petrol prices. And the diesel car owners are put into this group of "rich, powerful people" who are hellbent on crushing the aam aadmi!

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It is all because of cross-subsidy. High petrol prices sustain the diesel subsidy. In fact, every time I fill a liter of petrol in my car, I am also paying about Rs 10* for somebody else's diesel. Shouldn't all those on bikes, Altos, Santros, i10s and Wagon Rs be worried about having to pay a part of the rich men's diesel bill?

* That's an approximation, substitute with any number greater than zero as you like.
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Originally Posted by ecosport View Post
Call it by any name, the fact remains the same. High petrol price, covers up for the under recoveries from diesel.

You do realize that the so called " rich powerful people's" Diesel cars and aam admi's PVT diesel cars consume maybe 15% of total Diesel ?
Check the link below
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/22955410.cms

19% of Diesel also compromises of the Taxi vehicles . SO if you were to think of actual Diesel consumed by Private vehicles, the number would be in single digits.

Also feel free to check the fuel breakup links posted all over Teambhp. The "SUBSIDY" is government's definition of " LOWER TAXES" . You are not paying for Diesel Subsidy by the way.

Last edited by dreadknight5 : 1st October 2013 at 21:57. Reason: spelling
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Old 2nd October 2013, 00:08   #3363
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Default Re: The Official Fuel Prices Thread

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You do realize that the so called " rich powerful people's" Diesel cars and aam admi's PVT diesel cars consume maybe 15% of total Diesel ?
Check the link below
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/22955410.cms

19% of Diesel also compromises of the Taxi vehicles . SO if you were to think of actual Diesel consumed by Private vehicles, the number would be in single digits.

Also feel free to check the fuel breakup links posted all over Teambhp. The "SUBSIDY" is government's definition of " LOWER TAXES" . You are not paying for Diesel Subsidy by the way.
AGAIN, call it by any name, the fact remains the same. High taxes on petrol, covers up for the lower taxes on diesel.


BTW, diesel enjoys both subsidies and lower taxes. In Bangalore the tax difference between Petrol and Diesel is approx Rs 10. About Rs 15 are subsidies. Part of it is made up by the oil companies by higher prices of petrol and part by bonds issued by the government. There is no magic here. Bluntly, Diesel users are eating taxes meant for better things.
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Old 2nd October 2013, 00:36   #3364
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Default Re: The Official Fuel Prices Thread

Good to see petrol prices being reduced. However I would not want to wait till October end if the rupee keeps getting stronger for another reduction. If things keep improving pass it on the consumer immediately like Oily Moily claims. Do not leave a window of time for lowering prices specially if your warning for increase comes well into the afternoon and is in effect by midnight.

Petrol prices do hurt people. The argument that if you can afford a car it should not is flawed. Just because we can afford it is no reason why we should not cringe when it gets expensive. 13 bucks in a few months does hurt me. Public transport is a great idea but is it safe? Carrying thrice as many people as it should? Why should I compromise on my safety to save a few bucks? Also, if we're so insensitive towards money why should we even think twice on buying a vehicle for what it's worth. If a car is worth 10 lacs, pay 12 for it. If you can afford 10, you can surely afford 12. But then again what's fair in this?

I do not look at diesel owners with envy but I'd rather have that under-recovery nonsense sorted out for good. Just take one small step and hike the price already.
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Old 2nd October 2013, 00:53   #3365
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Default Re: The Official Fuel Prices Thread

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Originally Posted by ecosport View Post
There is no magic here. Bluntly, Diesel users are eating taxes meant for better things.
Not to jump into the hatred bandwagon here, but I would just like to know your opinion of paying a lakh premium over the petrol car at the time of buying a diesel? Many are continuing to forget that the initial burden of buying a diesel car is never or very slowly recovered. And if the running is high, the maintenance too is going to be high for a diesel. So, if you are thinking subsidy = diesel car user, then I have to think that 100% = 15%. And by the way, how is anybody else paying for diesel subsidy here? Is the govt. overpricing petrol just because diesel is under-priced? The answer as per my knowledge is no.

And how many of you think that car manufacturers will continue selling you a petrol car at the same price as now, if diesel is to cost as much as petrol? As diesel car sales dip, all discounts on the petrol variant will stop with immediate effect.

Whatever be it, I really pity the real common people, the bike commuter and the public transport dependent. He has to pay high price for his commuting as well as for almost everything else, if subsidies are lifted. It is only the really rich who are unaffected by subsidizing or not.

Last edited by thoma : 2nd October 2013 at 01:00.
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Old 2nd October 2013, 01:02   #3366
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Default Re: The Official Fuel Prices Thread

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Not to jump into the hatred bandwagon here, but I would just like to know your opinion of paying a lakh premium over the petrol car at the time of buying a diesel? Many are continuing to forget that the initial burden of buying a diesel car is never or very slowly recovered.
Agree with what you said. Yes it takes a long time to recover the premium. But we sometimes tend to forget that people would love to own diesel cars but they can't afford the premium. So there are car owners there who will add up their life savings as down payment and would take the EMI route and get a petrol vehicle of a base variant because they can't afford the premium.

Anyway, I look at it from pure economic terms and this lack of will to increase even marginally doesn't make sense to me. Clearly 50 paise is not helping matters.
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Old 2nd October 2013, 08:51   #3367
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Default Re: The Official Fuel Prices Thread

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Originally Posted by thoma View Post
Not to jump into the hatred bandwagon here, but I would just like to know your opinion of paying a lakh premium over the petrol car at the time of buying a diesel? Many are continuing to forget that the initial burden of buying a diesel car is never or very slowly recovered. And if the running is high, the maintenance too is going to be high for a diesel. So, if you are thinking subsidy = diesel car user, then I have to think that 100% = 15%. And by the way, how is anybody else paying for diesel subsidy here? Is the govt. overpricing petrol just because diesel is under-priced? The answer as per my knowledge is no.

And how many of you think that car manufacturers will continue selling you a petrol car at the same price as now, if diesel is to cost as much as petrol? As diesel car sales dip, all discounts on the petrol variant will stop with immediate effect.

Whatever be it, I really pity the real common people, the bike commuter and the public transport dependent. He has to pay high price for his commuting as well as for almost everything else, if subsidies are lifted. It is only the really rich who are unaffected by subsidizing or not.
Sir, the lakh of premium that the diesel car owners pay is not a substitute for the diesel subsidy/low taxes because the extra 1L goes to the car manufacturer and not the government. You are just paying a part of your gain upfront to the manufacturer.

Discounts on petrol cars, cross subsidy etc, are effects due to the skewed pricing mechanism. Once it goes off, everybody would be on a level playing ground, with no unfair advantages to anybody.
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Old 2nd October 2013, 10:45   #3368
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Default Re: The Official Fuel Prices Thread

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Originally Posted by ecosport View Post
Sir, the lakh of premium that the diesel car owners pay is not a substitute for the diesel subsidy/low taxes because the extra 1L goes to the car manufacturer and not the government.
Did I ever mean about a substitute in my post? I meant that a diesel car is not all easy to buy and maintain, as some may think otherwise. So let us not get into a war on someone else enjoying at your expense. In actual, nobody escapes the market or the govt.
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Old 2nd October 2013, 12:20   #3369
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Default Re: The Official Fuel Prices Thread

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Did I ever mean about a substitute in my post? I meant that a diesel car is not all easy to buy and maintain, as some may think otherwise. So let us not get into a war on someone else enjoying at your expense. In actual, nobody escapes the market or the govt.
Now I understand what you are saying here, but that is immaterial in this discussion. Diesel buyers made an informed decision weighing fuel cost savings against initial costs. They buy diesel cars because the gains from subsidized price is more than the initial outflow.

But, my point is, to remove all skews that we have accumulated for so long, the subsidies (or whatever that is contributing to the skewed pricing) should go.
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Old 2nd October 2013, 14:39   #3370
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Default Re: The Official Fuel Prices Thread

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Originally Posted by ecosport View Post
Now I understand what you are saying here, but that is immaterial in this discussion. Diesel buyers made an informed decision weighing fuel cost savings against initial costs. They buy diesel cars because the gains from subsidized price is more than the initial outflow.
And the same informed decision wasn't made by the Petrol car buyer? He also very well knew that the Indian political system would never probably allow the disparity to vanish and diesel is the subsidized fuel of the nation. On the other hand taking your statement further, the diesel car owner made an informed decision to give a premium and buy the diesel variant due to price difference. And now with your demand of doing away with diesel subsidy is going to hurt him very badly perhaps.

In the end it is best summarized here in the following post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thoma View Post
I meant that a diesel car is not all easy to buy and maintain, as some may think otherwise. So let us not get into a war on someone else enjoying at your expense. In actual, nobody escapes the market or the govt.

Last edited by drmohitg : 2nd October 2013 at 14:42.
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Old 2nd October 2013, 15:15   #3371
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Default Re: The Official Fuel Prices Thread

Now the rumour about a one time hike in Diesel is back - thanks to Oily Moily.
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Old 2nd October 2013, 16:11   #3372
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Default Re: The Official Fuel Prices Thread

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
And the same informed decision wasn't made by the Petrol car buyer? He also very well knew that the Indian political system would never probably allow the disparity to vanish and diesel is the subsidized fuel of the nation. On the other hand taking your statement further, the diesel car owner made an informed decision to give a premium and buy the diesel variant due to price difference. And now with your demand of doing away with diesel subsidy is going to hurt him very badly perhaps.

In the end it is best summarized here in the following post.
As i said earlier, it is immaterial to this discussion. The objections from us petrol users are NOT that diesel users are making merry, while we are left behind. But that we are being made to foot the bill for their merry.
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Old 2nd October 2013, 16:46   #3373
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Default Re: The Official Fuel Prices Thread

People should not forget, if the diesel prices go up it would have an impact on the prices of most products and services. for example a 3km journey in a public transport(bus) costs 7rs here in my town, and similarly 350kms journey in a volvo what used to cost 500bucks sometime back costs about 750bucks.
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Old 2nd October 2013, 17:44   #3374
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Default Re: The Official Fuel Prices Thread

In my opinion, our so called Navratnas should improve the efficiency of their refining process and stop cribbing about losses. I am sure their officer's fat paychecks are also significantly contributing to these price increase.
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Old 2nd October 2013, 17:44   #3375
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Default Re: The Official Fuel Prices Thread

I think diesel users are getting offended for no reason. We want a fair system in place

To make diesel owners sound righteous by saying they paid the premium is as if justifying an extended warranty purchased.

No one is saying keep the prices same. Inflation has to considered but when there's a price hike pending some harsh decisions need to be made.

Anyway there's a huge gap between the two fuels, so a one time hike may not hurt your premium much. Add your increased mileage to it. If things were as equal as some of the members point out, there would not have been a significant increase in diesel owners vs petrol owners.

Anyway, coming back to the topic is oily moily going to backtrack or is he going to increase diesel rates? Yet to figure out. Any hints from the Oily ministry yet?

Last edited by AbhishekB86 : 2nd October 2013 at 18:01.
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