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Old 14th April 2010, 11:13   #151
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Originally Posted by chittybang View Post
if the omini is qualified they too fit the bill.
Ace & Winger are classified under commercial vehicles
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Old 14th April 2010, 11:19   #152
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Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
A colleague & good friend has a 1.2 Active and though I love the car to bits the overall quality of the car is horrible. The car had a coolant leak before it even reached a 1000km and though it never drained out the entire system such things are unacceptable. The leak was noticed below the thermostat. The coolant appeared to have already dried up over whatever it fell on. The other shocking thing was half a dozen rusted bolts. Couple of rusted screws on the battery terminals, main screw that fastens the drive pulley of the alternator is rusted and screws on both front suspension struts are rusted from the inside. These problems are yet to be addressed with Fiat.

I sometimes wonder if TATA have upped the game on their quality, fit & finish over Fiat. I really don't find any difference over the quality of materials offered on a Vista and Punto.
The coolant leak is an issue that really shouldn't happen on a car that's barely run 1K kms. That being said, the rusting you have mentioned is normal and happens in all cars. I say this from experience, and ownership of an M800, a Suzuki Baleno and a Ford Fusion. I learnt a lot about cars by actually working on them, and got trained by my father in the same, so I know my way under the bonnet.

Quality, fit and finish on the Fiat is superior to the Tata in the same class, so is the engineering. What is true is that Fiat has tapped into Tata's vendor base to supply cheaper quality plastic bits that do take a toll on the interiors. That being said, the Punto 1.2 is a fantastic VFM proposition. What Fiat needs to do is to go all out for a marketing campaign, at the same time launch the Linea T-jet and Punto Sport.
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Old 14th April 2010, 12:30   #153
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The real star of the month sales is Figo, as everyone has already mentioned. It definitely seems to have wrestled the share from Punto (only if few people were willing to rely on TASS, Figo came at a lower price band & swept the ground beneath). However, I do not think i20 or Polo have sufferred. i20 is selling 4-5k per month which is norm for its price. Polo's deliveries haven't really picked up... there is waiting period of 3 months (I have personally checked it from the dealership in Delhi).
Alto could be the casualty of Figo + Eeco launch there is corresponding loss of 7-8k units sales.
i10 selling little over 15k units is good number. After all the car is not that bad. However, note that Maruti has also sold more than 15k units (hatchbacks) of 1.2k series engine (Swift + Ritz). This number can be compared with the numbers of Hyundai's 1.2 Kappa (i10 & i20). Similarly, sales of WagonR (1.1L) & i10 (1.1L) + Santro are at the same level.
Maruti is ahead because of better portfolio, but will definitely feel the heat because of increasing competition.
Fiat, sorry to say have to get the quality better over Tata standards, otherwise they are doomed for sure. They suffer because of little differentiating factors between the Tata cars & their cars & the cheap price tag of Tata cars. they definitely need small car that they do not share with Tata anyway.
Beat & Spark are the bread-earners for GM. read in the morning that SAIC has forced itself in GM India's board... can see more small & cheap cars (Chinese made) introduced in India. Probably the sales of GM will increase (faster) from that point.

Yes, I too feel that there is paucity of good sedans in Rs.6-8 lacs range. This segment has the potential of manifold increase (being optimistic... actually double or treble the present level).
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Old 14th April 2010, 13:10   #154
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Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
Rusting so early and that too in weather conditions that don't permit rust that easily (Bangalore) is something I find rather strange and more so on a brand new car.
Are you sure about the fit and finish being superior on Fiat? I was very disappointed with the overall quality on the Punto.

Engineering is something I doubt if TATA can ever level up to with Fiat. Fiat are simply leagues ahead.

Fiat India is sleeping. They previewed the Punto Sport & Linea T Jet at the Auto Expo and were gauging response. The Auto Expo should have been the launch pad for the two new variants. Why did they even have to gauge response for something as attractive as the Punto Sport is a mystery. Its a package that will be a sure hit if priced right & Fiat have so far hit the nail as far are pricing goes for both the Punto & Linea. The only thing missing is the performance customers are craving for.
If you included build quality in overall quality (which seems like a prudent choice), the Punto is better than any other hatch in India (other than perhaps the Polo). This is a story I havn't shared on the forum, mainly because I didn't have any pictures of the same. I saw a Medium Grey Punto driven by an ex-navy officer literally being launched in the air by catching the corner of a flyover ramp and landing on its side after flipping over once. This seems right out of a film, but it's absolutely true. He was travelling with his 12 year old grandson, both were shaken but didn't have a single scratch on them (both were belted in, and this was a Dynamic version without airbags). They bought a new Punto the next day (of a different colour citing superstition).

We have heard similar stories from SidIndica and seen pictures of a totalled Linea on this forum whose owner bought a new Linea because he attributed it to have saved his and his family's life.

Bottomline: The Fiat's are built tough. The plastics might not be up to the mark though. However, the 2010 models are better.

I agree when you say that Fiat seems to be sleeping, but I think they are getting the basics right by sharpening their service first. They are taking the conservative approach here, which I hate (I would like more activity) but there is something to be said about using word of mouth publicity. It is slow, but it beats just about everything else. Hopefully the Punto Sport and the Linea T-jet will be launched later this year.
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Old 14th April 2010, 13:37   #155
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Originally Posted by cossack View Post


Figo has sure eaten up a very minuscule share from i20, Polo, Fiesta and Ikon (and I don't see Ford complaining at all.) But thinking that it'll topple Swift from the top in a jiffy (even though myself and a lot of my friends are awaiting the deliveries of their Figos and that'll add up to April figures) would be psephology to say the least.

I think Figo would definitely remain the best seller of the rest... As the Swift following is huge in India and majority of buyers don't want to experiment at all.

Polo would start picking up once the Figo frenzy dies down (I hope it doesn't, Ford for the first time have got most of the things right and they deserve to be rewarded,) Beat, I do not think has a chance here mainly due to its design, IMO it's attractive like an outrageously flashy toy which fails to keep the excitement going in the longer run.

A lot is to be seen in the future though.

~

On The contrary, I see because of Bland design nature and with an old architecture, coupled with driveability issues, the sales of Figo might go down,...... Case in Point Being Logan, which is similarly designed product & ritz which is a better product than Figo.

While Beat reminds me more of a Swift, a similar outrageous design which eventhough takes time to catch on but eventually ends up as most desired.

Indian customer of this segment to me, is obsessed with design and feature so much so that they keep on buying swifts, i20s & i10 unless they have a better designed products. Look at these products sales which is always on rise.

Last edited by anu21v : 14th April 2010 at 13:41.
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Old 14th April 2010, 16:59   #156
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Originally Posted by StarrySky View Post
I think it's the "new" 1.2 range (Dynamic, Emotion) that starts at 4.57L. The 1.2 Active is cheaper.

What exactly is this "New"... has there been any change in Punto which hasn't come on Active. Also is "1.2 Active" is a pure paper model which doesn't sells at all and hence on technicality Fiat doesnt anounce its price in TV Commercials?

From the Website I can see Punto Active is Rs 4.26 Lakhs, but can't understand the rationale why Fiat would fritter the chance of advertising a lower priced affordable product. Are they not losing potential sales due to this strategy?

Last edited by anu21v : 14th April 2010 at 17:03.
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Old 14th April 2010, 17:49   #157
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Originally Posted by anu21v View Post
What exactly is this "New"... has there been any change in Punto which hasn't come on Active. Also is "1.2 Active" is a pure paper model which doesn't sells at all and hence on technicality Fiat doesnt anounce its price in TV Commercials?

From the Website I can see Punto Active is Rs 4.26 Lakhs, but can't understand the rationale why Fiat would fritter the chance of advertising a lower priced affordable product. Are they not losing potential sales due to this strategy?
This is TATA strategy to sell FIAT products. Active model is just to create a wide spread in price and features offered. Recently 1.4 Dynamic and emotion have been dropped and 1.2 is introduced in these avtaars.
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Old 14th April 2010, 20:28   #158
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Originally Posted by aniketi View Post
Manza is doing good agreed No issues over that but sales number of 7500 is not only of Manza. It also includes Indigo CS which is doing good for past few months. Sale of Indigo CS must be around 3-4 k Out of 7.5 K. Still we can say Manza is doing good but Dzire is way ahead.
CS was doing less than 3000 before Manza was launched. Why do you think the sales will increase after manza launch.

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Ace & Winger are classified under commercial vehicles
The question is mainly about Tata Magic. When omni and Eeco are classified as cars, why not Tata Magic.

Last edited by airbender : 14th April 2010 at 20:35.
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Old 14th April 2010, 21:01   #159
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I added up the figures of all the models sold in march '10.It was around 200,100 cars.That means a annualized rate of over 2.4 million cars.
However most news publications leave out the SUVs,MUVs sold without which it comes to about 156,000(annualized to 1.85 million).This is consistent with reports saying that India will reach 2million cars this year.

What i want to know is why MUVs(like bolero,innova) are left out of the equation?.These too are passenger cars.
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Old 15th April 2010, 09:25   #160
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Originally Posted by airbender View Post
....The question is mainly about Tata Magic. When omni and Eeco are classified as cars, why not Tata Magic.
Well that would be because the Magic is based on the ACE.
The categorization may seem absurd in certain perspectives, but so are the ways of our systems.
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Old 15th April 2010, 09:31   #161
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Originally Posted by Amartya View Post
All things said and done, the Punto is a premium offering in terms of engineering, but interior quality leaves something to be desired. Some people can see though the shoddy plastics (like you ) and decide to go for superior engineering; unfortunately, most of India still don't see beyond the glitter and are enamored with beige/chocolate interiors. Truth be told, interiors actually sell the car in India, unless the car itself is really cheap (Indica example). Unfortunately, the Punto is not really inexpensive (though good value for money).
Totally agree to your point, in general for most of the Indian consumers they would rather spend 25K-50K to spice up the ride with Alloys and ICE rather than spending that initially on safety features like ABS and airbags.

For me safety was at a higher priority than plastics (I would rather spend 50K additional upfront rather than footing a 100K medical bill in some hospital), with a suitable use of Vitamin M. At that time in diesel the options were Ritz, Swift (with 3 months waiting), i20 & Punto. The only questions I asked at various dealerships is does is it have airbags & ABS. And IMHO there is nothing that can beat Punto in terms of safety. Now with FIGO in picture the equations might change.
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Old 15th April 2010, 12:16   #162
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Great numbers by Figo, well done in the first month.
I have seen lot of Figo's around however all of them were TDCI models no petrol's yet on road.
I think its the diesel which is selling in good number rather than petrol.
If we directly compare the petrol models of Polo & Figo then I think the Polo seems to have an upper hand.

Once Polo comes with its diesel model is out then it would be interesting how Swift & Figo diesels do.

Punto an excellent product seems to be failing courtesy the way the way they have the tie up with Tata. I think it is harming Fiat's brand.
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Old 15th April 2010, 12:35   #163
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Totally agree to your point, in general for most of the Indian consumers they would rather spend 25K-50K to spice up the ride with Alloys and ICE rather than spending that initially on safety features like ABS and airbags.
Now with FIGO in picture the equations might change.
True, people don't seem to realize how unsafe our roads are. Buying a well built car (with active and passive safety features) should come naturally to people who value the lives of themselves and their families. The Punto and the Figo both offer safety features in a fantastic VFM package. The Punto ekes out the Ford a bit though, because of the vault like build (shut the Punto door from the inside, then do the same in any car in the segment, including the jazz), nothing comes close.
What frightens me is the fact that a sales rep. tells prospective clients that cars like the Hyundai i20 have "phive star safety", so people think that if they buy a i20 Magna Crdi, which is almost the same price as the Punto Epack 1.3MJD, they are equally safe. Which is a joke, as the 5-star NCAP rating is for the i20 equipped with the 6 airbags.

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Originally Posted by sandeepmohan View Post
I doubt if any small car today can better the space & ride quality of the good old Uno.

I absolutely agree with the engineering part and I took another good look at the Punto and except for the plastics and few rusty bolts the overall car feels like it can take the most amount of thrashing. Everything is solid. Thanks for pointing this out.

It is true that we all love a glitzy dashboard and a car that is loaded to the gills. Good design being an absolute priority.

I can't for the life understand how Hyundai cracked it with the i20. Listening to customers I guess. The package on a whole is stunning but when you have a Honda Jazz at around the same price (Top End) why would anyone want to touch a Hyundai (The brand); but people are buying it. I doubt if the i20 is as big a hit in other countries as it is in India.
Bang on target, Fiat did set the benchmark in cars and their features. Unfortunately they also set the benchmark in the poor service index. It's a tale of missed opportunities. Surprisingly, I used to be a Fiat critic, all it took were a couple of long drives in the Siena that changed it. One doesn't need to be a car guy to understand what the Fiat's stand for, just a couple of long drives does it.
While deciding on a car for my girlfriend, we tried out each and every small car (other than the Figo, which wasn't launched). She is a discerning enough driver to spot for herself that the Punto gave her the confidence that none of the others did (she liked the i20s interiors, naturally as they are good). She is now an owner of a Fiat Punto 1.3MJD EPack and she swears by it.

To answer your question about the i20, all I can say is that Hyundai has put in the hard work and painstakingly carved out a rock-solid brand recall for itself. With the i20, they got the exterior design right, the interiors spot on, a well known engine and basically that's all it takes. While we might be enamored with Honda as a brand, we Indians never lose sight of value for money, which is where the Hyundai i20 was lucky that the Jazz priced itself out of the equation. Fiat doesn't have 1/100th the brand value of Hyundai, and rightly so. They are trying their mightiest though, and I always love the underdog that keeps plugging away, and refuses to give up.

Think about it, it took Peugeot one failure (again with PAL) and it left, Renault tried to push a obscenely priced relic (in terms of looks) and failed, it now seems they'll use the Nissan brand to penetrate the Indian market. Fiat is still around, at the very least, you have to hand it to them for commitment.
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Old 15th April 2010, 12:57   #164
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Perhaps the Punto's dismal performance has something to do with the 'upgrade to a linea' offer that Fiat was running some time ago? But really, that much of a difference? Even I'm perplexed. My mind goes back to Autocar India's first review of the Punto where they mentioned that the Punto didn't move the game forward in the hatch segment in the way the Linea did in the sedan segment. This sales figure is just a manifestation of the same.

For me, Fiat has committed a blunder with the 1.4 tuning. It's neither a performer, nor very fuel-efficient which leaves buyers on both sides unhappy. The 1.2 needs an upgrade. DOHC, 16V. Power and torque are bound to go up. Fiat should ditch the 1.4 or tune it better.

Another thing that could help Fiat is if they get the Linea's interior scheme on the Punto (essentially the beige trim).

P.S. 2 new shades supposedly on the market, and I'm yet to spot the Tuscan Wine colour.
I doubt if the poor sales of Fiat is because of a bad product. Punto / Linea are as good / bad products like other cars in their segment. I feel Fiat suffers from an identity crisis in this country when compared to other brands. There is no exclusivity to Fiat as a brand and the dependence on Tata is all the more reason to drive away customers. They need to have their own dealer and service networks. Until that happens can't see how Fiat can make a mark in the marketshare.
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Old 15th April 2010, 13:07   #165
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Originally Posted by Amartya View Post
(shut the Punto door from the inside, then do the same in any car in the segment, including the jazz), nothing comes close.
Hyundai has changed the game in the indian market by offering solid, value for money and well built cars that are quite comparable to any other brand in the market (Maruti does not figure in the list here w.r.t to quality). Yes the i10 and i20 are on par with punto as far as shutting door is concerned. Cannot comment on Jazz as i have not tried it.
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