[i74js]

Originally Posted by lifebuoy

M&M is a street smart company and will cut corners or bend rules / compromise on quality and what not, to keep the sales charts ticking, that's what I can gauge from their adventures. Live young , live free indeed ! And die coughing and spurting after the youth is over, eh ?

The recent one being reduction of ground clearance in XUV by bringing down the engine cover plate, which can be refixed at the original level (as in past) by the dealer before the delivery is made.

The policy makers keep their eyes closed to such mockery of rules and let the companies take advantage of it.

M & M must consider replacement of car.

[bruiser]

Originally Posted by i74js

The recent one being reduction of ground clearance in XUV by bringing down the engine cover plate, which can be refixed at the original level (as in past) by the dealer before the delivery is made.

The policy makers keep their eyes closed to such mockery of rules and let the companies take advantage of it.

M & M must consider replacement of car.

I completely agree, in this case they should go for a replacement. Its someones hard earned 12big ones on their flagship product, I am hoping some stricter laws are introduced to ensure these companies stop taking us for a ride.

[fighterace]

Originally Posted by lifebuoy

High hops that you have @cliffhanger ! What made you feel that Mahindra is any different from any Banya-ki-dukan when it comes to QA ? The whole Indian automotive scene is replete with defects, rule bending, poor or non-existant QA, etc.

Take the recent cases of fires reported in delhi - Etios, Dzire, Aveo, WagonR, even a high end Audi Q7 ! Are these brands (audi, Toyota) not considered the epitome of QA? BTW, of all these fire cases, none have been reported from the TATA stable, for your info.

M&M is a street smart company and will cut corners or bend rules / compromise on quality and what not, to keep the sales charts ticking, that's what I can gauge from their adventures. Live young , live free indeed ! And die coughing and spurting after the youth is over, eh ?

Wait for a year or two more, the XUV will show it's true colours even better ! And then, we will have a "new" model from M&M to cover up for all the blunders.

Well said. I just can't understand why people think the Indica and the Nano to be duds while going ga-ga over the XUV 5 ho ho ho. Both the Indica and the XUV are the first monocoques made by the respective manufacturers, and both have had their share of teething problems. But I haven't heard of structural failure even in the 1st gen Indica. And given its success as a taxi, nobody can question the VFM of the product. A cabbie who depends on a car for his livelihood its the best judge. As for the XUV, it's an ugly pretender, and I'd any day prefer a Scorpio.

The only incident of an Indica catching fire amongst the owners I know was just after servicing, which again points at the callous nature of TASS. As for the owner, he is still driving the car and is happy with it- a 1.4 petrol.

[fighterace]

Originally Posted by mycarhasablower

Disclaimer: this post is strictly unofficial and im posting this as a fellow automobile enthusiast

I read through the whole thread and as a mahindra engineer...

I mean cmon, ive had things like power window switches and a/c motors fail under warranty in my cars(no i dont own any mahindra vehicles as my signature will show) and the door panels and dashboards were removed for repairs. Even in those cases your car isnt the same as before, rattles creep in, fit and finish worsens.

... My association with the company is purely coincidental.

Good luck

Dear Sir,

May I ask you why, despite being a Mahindra employee, you haven't touched their vehicles with a barge pole?

I think the best solution would be to replace the vehicle and use the good parts of the faulty vehicle for other paid repairs as certified parts, after proper inspection and with a clear statement of their origins.

Regards,

Fighterace

[Car-riedAway]

A typical case of customer being taken fora ride, as it happens quite often in India. I would second the opinion of many herein and suggest to fight out for a replacement. Please suggest to whatever Mahindra personnel you are interaction with that you are soon contemplating a legal action if your concerns are not heeded to at the soonest. Poor legal protection for consumers have given not teeth but fangs to product vendors/companies. I faced a similar situation with Tata-Fiat collaboration in my Linea when to cure an engine noise they changed everything from an engine sub-assembly to finally deduce that the turbocharger could be faulty. I was communicating with Mr. Kodalkar of Fiat at that time and observed that Fiat after some point of time stopped communicating directly with me. After facing great trouble, numerous discussions and over two months I got my car back thankfully the problem solved with me sharing a part of the entire bill of over 1 lacs. But it was huge mental torment and I can understand what you are going through.

Please do not loose hope and maintain records of all emails. Would suggest that even if you get some assurance/inputs over phone call please record the same by writing a mail to the person you had the call with and stating all that was discussed. This would help you to draft an application at the consumer court with all the details. Also, if you are using rented car/vehicle for your commute tell them about the losses you are facing due to their lackadisical approach. Maintain all bills and seek compensation when filing application under consumer protection act. I have a draft application, which i prepared but didnt use, let me know if you need that.

Also, please continue to address your plight on their social media pages, Mr. Mahindra appears to be the action-taker sorts. At this moment I am also embroiled in a fight with Nokia for replacement of Nokia phone i bought for my father in law. Its a regular feature for consumers these days so just keep the fight going

[humyum]

Originally Posted by mycarhasablower

Disclaimer: this post is strictly unofficial and im posting this as a fellow automobile enthusiast

I read through the whole thread and as a mahindra engineer, i can tell you from what i have seen regarding the functioning of this company,that if the news of this incident has reached the actual company, they will definitely be having a lot of meetings about it, about issues like how this problem occurred in the first place, how many vehicles could possibly be affected, finding a technically correct solution to your problem, etc etc.
All kinds of departments, like management, R&D, production, quality etc would already be on their toes to address this issue. Mr mahindra & Dr.Goenka are bloody serious about customer satisfaction and quality issues.

Now a lot of people are saying that the vehicle be replaced. Honestly in my opinion, thats too much to ask. The truth is mahindra wouldve have willingly replaced the vehicle just to keep a customer happy. The cost of one single vehicle wouldnt even show in their balance sheets. And customer satisfaction is indeed considered the number one! priority here, as a fellow bhpian saw for himself when his engine was replaced without fuss.

The trouble is if they replaced the vehicle and people found out, that would set a terrible precedent. From what i have personally noticed, us indians have a thing for grabbing the hand when a finger is offered. Soon people would ask for replacement vehicles for the smallest of warranty claims, threatening to defame on public forums like these.
I mean cmon, ive had things like power window switches and a/c motors fail under warranty in my cars(no i dont own any mahindra vehicles as my signature will show) and the door panels and dashboards were removed for repairs. Even in those cases your car isnt the same as before, rattles creep in, fit and finish worsens.

The other thing about taking it back to the factory for repair: Id dont see how that idea even makes sense. The whole work is done by robots there, its not like the vehicle can be put back on the line to re-weld a new panel.
they just dont have the equipment or skill THERE for this kinda Job AFAIK.

Honestly the best idea would be for you to request for an actual, BIW engineer to supervise the repair work at the service center.

About the car not being as strong, well i would say that if a continuous panel was cut inbetween then yes, it would lose strength.If the whole panel was replaced like they do when they repair accident damage then it would still be as strong, although dismantled parts may not go back on well enough depending on the skill of the person doing the repair

A picture of the affected area wouldve been great but i have an idea. If the spot welds in that area arent too close to each other and there is SUFFICIENT space between them, then it would be best to spot weld between the previous spot welds, maybe increase the number of spot welds too, but that should be decided by a BIW engineer. That in my opinion will be the best option. Your car will be as good as new, with no compromise on structural integrity.(of course my opinion is not the final word, a BIW engineers opinion though IS)

I do repeat, this is my(and mine alone) personal and technical opinion as a not so experienced engineer and a long standing Bhpian. This has nothing to do with mahindra's official stand(Heck my age on my profile will tell you that i am not likely to be in a position to be dealing with such serious matters anyway). My association with the company is purely coincidental.

Good luck

Some pages back, I had posted quite a similar opinion which I don't think anyone bothered to read. Whatever you have said in your post sums everything up really well. Asking for a new car in such a case is just asking for too much.

[Car-riedAway]

Originally Posted by humyum

Whatever you have said in your post sums everything up really well. Asking for a new car in such a case is just asking for too much.

What case qualifies for a replacement then, could you specify? Which defects qualify for replacement?

The simple question to be considered is who is responsible for any bodily harm or loss of property (of self or a third party) that may be caused by such defective vehicles. In India law of torts is not so well developed and used, and this the root cause of all such behaviour of the vendors/dealers. The consumer just has to suffer at the hands of the product companies and in case of any defect in the product.

[mycarhasablower]

Originally Posted by fighterace

Dear Sir,

May I ask you why, despite being a Mahindra employee, you haven't touched their vehicles with a barge pole?


Regards,

Fighterace

You would have found the answer to that in my signature itself.The type of cars that interest me are very different from anything that mahindra makes. I like old school automobiles that basically are more thrilling to drive than their modern counterparts. Suv's dont interest me. Although i have been considering the E2O since even before i joined. Hopefully that will be the next addition to my garage


Btw ive owned an indica vista for a few years and tata cars are known to have issues more than any other brand. mine was no exception. But it was a decent likeable automobile otherwise. No regrets. Infact for my personal use i prefer cars that arent too reliable. I enjoy working on cars more than driving them, so a car that doesnt require me to work on it is boring to my mind.

[nitinralli]

Originally Posted by mycarhasablower

Btw ive owned an indica vista for a few years and tata cars are known to have issues more than any other brand. mine was no exception. But it was a decent likeable automobile otherwise. No regrets. Infact for my personal use i prefer cars that arent too reliable. I enjoy working on cars more than driving them, so a car that doesnt require me to work on it is boring to my mind.

Thanks for your thoughts, it does make sense.

Lets just wait and see what Mahindra does on this issue rather than blaming others for supporting mahindra. Your inputs are appreciated. I just hope Mahindra management knows about this issue and they plan to take care of it.

[humyum]

Originally Posted by Car-riedAway

What case qualifies for a replacement then, could you specify? Which defects qualify for replacement?

The simple question to be considered is who is responsible for any bodily harm or loss of property (of self or a third party) that may be caused by such defective vehicles. In India law of torts is not so well developed and used, and this the root cause of all such behaviour of the vendors/dealers. The consumer just has to suffer at the hands of the product companies and in case of any defect in the product.

Constant parts failures are a cause of replacement. Engine failed after that AC compressor conked off, ABS module replacement, Steering rack making a noise etc etc, when some of these occur in small intervals of each other, it can be a good cause of a lemon and vehicle replacement. This was just an example, situation to situation it may be different.

A spot weld not being in place is hardly a cause for vehicle replacement. Bodily harm, loss or property, such defective vehicles, MAN these are all big big terms you are using for not such a big thing. The consumer here is not going to suffer, let Mahindra open the A pillar and spot weld the bloody thing, I'll be as good as new.

I ll give you an example of where spot welds are used. If your vehicle ends up having a frontal crash and your apron is hit, the old apron is removed and the new one is spot welded. On the apron are mounted your strut mounts, lower arms bla bla. This is done in company workshops with precision as the suspension settings like camber, caster can take a hit if the apron is spot welded properly. A car is also hoisted on a Car-O-Liner and readings are checked against company specified distances mentioned for each element.

In this case, its NOTHING. A Pillar Open--> Spot weld do-->Fix A pillar back. A Mahindra engineer can be asked to supervise the same. The owner of the vehicle can watch too, then you'll know it is not such a big deal.

[sudeepg]

Originally Posted by fighterace

Dear Sir,

I think the best solution would be to replace the vehicle and use the good parts of the faulty vehicle for other paid repairs as certified parts, after proper inspection and with a clear statement of their origins.

Regards,

Fighterace

Seriously? for this reported issue? I wonder why Mahindra shouldn't be just given an opportunity to investigate the issue and come out with an acceptable solution.

Originally Posted by Car-riedAway

Please do not loose hope and maintain records of all emails. Would suggest that even if you get some assurance/inputs over phone call please record the same by writing a mail to the person you had the call with and stating all that was discussed. This would help you to draft an application at the consumer court with all the details. Also, if you are using rented car/vehicle for your commute tell them about the losses you are facing due to their lackadisical approach. Maintain all bills and seek compensation when filing application under consumer protection act. I have a draft application, which i prepared but didnt use, let me know if you need that.

Also, please continue to address your plight on their social media pages, Mr. Mahindra appears to be the action-taker sorts. At this moment I am also embroiled in a fight with Nokia for replacement of Nokia phone i bought for my father in law. Its a regular feature for consumers these days so just keep the fight going

Completely agree with this. kk21 should constantly record his interactions with service/Mahindra in case he needs these in future litigation. I hope it doesn't go that route.

Originally Posted by Car-riedAway

What case qualifies for a replacement then, could you specify? Which defects qualify for replacement?

The simple question to be considered is who is responsible for any bodily harm or loss of property (of self or a third party) that may be caused by such defective vehicles. In India law of torts is not so well developed and used, and this the root cause of all such behaviour of the vendors/dealers. The consumer just has to suffer at the hands of the product companies and in case of any defect in the product.

There is no bodily harm which has happened here. The issue has been found before any incident. So why not give the company a chance to investigate and resolve the issue? There is no company in the world which makes "perfect" products. Issues crop up everywhere and it is quite normal to offer the company a chance to resolve the matter to satisfaction which is also a win-win both both the party and company

Originally Posted by humyum

Constant parts failures are a cause of replacement. Engine failed after that AC compressor conked off, ABS module replacement, Steering rack making a noise etc etc, when some of these occur in small intervals of each other, it can be a good cause of a lemon and vehicle replacement. This was just an example, situation to situation it may be different.

A spot weld not being in place is hardly a cause for vehicle replacement. Bodily harm, loss or property, such defective vehicles, MAN these are all big big terms you are using for not such a big thing. The consumer here is not going to suffer, let Mahindra open the A pillar and spot weld the bloody thing, I'll be as good as new.

I ll give you an example of where spot welds are used. If your vehicle ends up having a frontal crash and your apron is hit, the old apron is removed and the new one is spot welded. On the apron are mounted your strut mounts, lower arms bla bla. This is done in company workshops with precision as the suspension settings like camber, caster can take a hit if the apron is spot welded properly. A car is also hoisted on a Car-O-Liner and readings are checked against company specified distances mentioned for each element.

In this case, its NOTHING. A Pillar Open--> Spot weld do-->Fix A pillar back. A Mahindra engineer can be asked to supervise the same. The owner of the vehicle can watch too, then you'll know it is not such a big deal.

So much agree with this as well! It seems the issue is just being blown out of proportion here. My suggestion is also to have the company look into the matter and take the appropriate course of action. They made this product, they know it well. Let's just give them a chance to investigate. If they don't resolve this matter in a timely fashion, then kk21 has all the rights to seek compensation and go the legal route. This will also show to the forums that the customer exercised restraint in trying to solve the matter with the company. If the company acts on this well, they gain goodwill and faith in the community. That will be a HUGE win for them. Don't trash them in the social media at the moment, that will only make matters worse. They need to have the opportunity to investigate the matter.

[SDP]

Originally Posted by sudeepg

Seriously? for this reported issue? I wonder why Mahindra shouldn't be just given an opportunity to investigate the issue and come out with an acceptable solution.

The opening post mentions the investigation that M&M has done for this issue and also lists the solution options offered by them. Unfortunately, given that its a monocoque construction, any cutting and re-welding is going to permanently impact the structural integrity of the vehicle. Its general knowledge among auto-enthusiasts that when buying a used car, accident repair cars should be avoided like the plague. The reason is precisely the compromised structural integrity because of which in case of another accident, the vehicle would be less safe than when it was in its original state.
Coming back to the case, the first option is exactly that and the result is going to be a structurally compromised vehicle ...which is not caused by a accident by the owner, but caused by a manufacturing defect.

The second option about replacing the entire body frame is again not in favour of the OP as the fit and finish when the vehicle is assembled at the service center would be significantly inferior to a factory fit & finish. Creaking sounds, rattling, dangling wires/pipes and what not. There is no logical reason why the OP should settle with all of that for no fault of his.

There is no third option offered by M&M yet.

...It seems the issue is just being blown out of proportion here..

Sorry, have to disagree here. A monocoque SUV with broken spot-welds on one of the most precarious points of the body (i.e. the A-pillar) is a BIG deal. We are not talking about a infotainment system that automatically restarts once in a while or a faulty bonnet-sensor which triggers a false door-open alarm... for all that there is the dedicated niggles thread.

[Car-riedAway]

Truly agree with SDP, where repair work would ensure near factory manufacture results, it is advisable but when the results are strictly unpredictable it should be better to ask for replacement. Easy for someone, whose vehicle has not gone through such an ordeal, to say that the issue is blown out of proportion, its the real owner who is in the most disadvantageous position - his vehicle unusable and non arrangement of any other vehicle for his daily commute.

From a legal point of view, I hope that the subject vehicle is not being run now when the problem has surfaced else the manufacturer could say that problem was aggravated by the owner.

[humyum]

Originally Posted by SDP

The opening post mentions the investigation that M&M has done for this issue and also lists the solution options offered by them. Unfortunately, given that its a monocoque construction, any cutting and re-welding is going to permanently impact the structural integrity of the vehicle.

Sorry, not true. In many old cars where rusting is an issue, panels are removed and new ones spot welded back, it's as good as new. Nothing is going to permanently impact a modern day vehicle as long as the worksmanship is A 1. My 12 year old sister can do a spot weld if given a choice, its that easy.

For your information, heres how it's done -->

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z44AlvQimm0

Originally Posted by SDP

Its general knowledge among auto-enthusiasts that when buying a used car, accident repair cars should be avoided like the plague. The reason is precisely the compromised structural integrity because of which in case of another accident, the vehicle would be less safe than when it was in its original state.
Coming back to the case, the first option is exactly that and the result is going to be a structurally compromised vehicle ...which is not caused by a accident by the owner, but caused by a manufacturing defect.

Oh please, comparing accident vehicles to just a SINGULAR spot weld not in place is just WRONG. Structurally compromised vehicle , sounds so over dramatized.

Originally Posted by SDP

The second option about replacing the entire body frame is again not in favour of the OP as the fit and finish when the vehicle is assembled at the service center would be significantly inferior to a factory fit & finish. Creaking sounds, rattling, dangling wires/pipes and what not. There is no logical reason why the OP should settle with all of that for no fault of his.

There is no third option offered by M&M yet.

The second option should not be in favor by the OP not because of the fit and finish issues etc etc but because it's like replacing the entire chassis for a slight cross member brush that your vehicle might have taken during a trip to Ladakh or an engine replacement because the cause being head gasket failure.

Originally Posted by SDP

Sorry, have to disagree here. A monocoque SUV with broken spot-welds on one of the most precarious points of the body (i.e. the A-pillar) is a BIG deal. We are not talking about a infotainment system that automatically restarts once in a while or a faulty bonnet-sensor which triggers a false door-open alarm... for all that there is the dedicated niggles thread.

Broken spot 'weld' not 'welds', its singular. Yes the A pillar in an even of a collision does take a lot of hit, but there is nothing the new car will have different from this car apart from the factory doing the same thing what the workshop will redo in his car. NO difference.

Originally Posted by Car-riedAway

Truly agree with SDP, where repair work would ensure near factory manufacture results, it is advisable but when the results are strictly unpredictable it should be better to ask for replacement. Easy for someone, whose vehicle has not gone through such an ordeal, to say that the issue is blown out of proportion, its the real owner who is in the most disadvantageous position - his vehicle unusable and non arrangement of any other vehicle for his daily commute.

From a legal point of view, I hope that the subject vehicle is not being run now when the problem has surfaced else the manufacturer could say that problem was aggravated by the owner.

I don't know if you are pointing this at me, but I ll give you what my Swift has had replaced in it's first 2 years of ownership for you to know that I have been at that side of the fence too.

3 clutches, one gearbox overhaul, one steering rack replacement, one strut replacement, brake booster replaced twice and all this takes a lot of service station visits, diagnosis, vehicle being kept for days etc etc.

It was 20 thousand km then and now its 96 thousand runs like its just come out of the showroom.

Anyway to the OP, I sincerely advice you and take this from an Automotive Engineer who has worked quite a bit on chassis engineering during my UNI days and sometimes with engineers from good companies too, let a qualified engineer from Mahindra inspect the whole procedure while the workshop carries out the A pillar opening and spot welding it back. Trust me, there will no structural vuctural integrity lost and all that and your vehicle will be as good as new. No point fighting all this out in legal cases and all when the solution is straightforward and right in front of you.

Anyway, I said what I had to say and posting further is meaningless unless OP comes with some updates.

[Car-riedAway]

Dear Humyum, it was not at all intended for you, just wanted to say that is it worth it getting punished for no fault of yours? You are the consumer who can make or break companies, why be haggled at the hands of product companies. Particularly when the issues are as serious as quality issues in the body structure that MAY, if not it has really, result in some harm. When we go for servicing of vehicles why don't the vendors just repair a faulty part and why do they insist upon changing the same with a new one, if it is valid then, why not now?

Only my opinion. I would have kept the fight going as I said i already dis with fiat.