[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by HappyWheels

Dear BD,

Not a question - but a thought - are you in anyway responsible for the delay of this launch?

All this delays for improvements are welcome. If you combine the refined dynamics as quoted by BD sir with what I have seen in the interiors, we have a drastic step up from our current Safari. It is like moving up from a Pulsar 200 dtsi (the old one) to a KTM duke in one leap

[Rahulk76]

Excellent, my 2 cents.

No matter how well this vehicle is well engineered , the reliability of the vehicle will be only determined by its real world usage and the quality of the parts used. Unless that is taken care of nothing can be quantified. Rest everything is relative.

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Originally Posted by Rahulk76

Excellent...my 2 cents. No matter how well this vehicle is well engineered, the reliability of the vehicle will be only determined by its real world usage and the quality of the parts used. Unless that is taken care of nothing can be quantified. Rest everything is relative..

Dear Rahulk76 - you are absolutely correct. The success or lack of it will be determined in the hands of customers like you, nobody can challenge that. The long and short of it is very clear. Nothing happens to the car - EVER - the customer only adds fuel and drives. The word "EVER" in the sentence changes the game completely. That's all. In order to achieve this, RWUP (Real World Usage Pattern) becomes the number one requirement and needs to get the attention that it deserves. Also, converting a product to a brand and then connecting with customers and converting them to become brand ambassadors for life determines success in today's extremely competitive times. I know. I have succeeded once, I am determined to do it again.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[jaysmokesleaves]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

I know. I have succeeded once, I am determined to do it again.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

Mr Behram, your comments in this thread are certainly encouraging.
As a Safari user since 2008 i would only say that all that the engineers are doing to improve the end result will be of no consequence unless the quality of parts sourced is top notch.
If it is to be believed that the engineers have done their job right then the failure on parts quality will be the weak link. I hope this will not be the case. I might just have another Safari in my garage then at 10 lakhs less than the Fortuners OTR price ex Mumbai!!

Also, if that "something" you are busy doing is related to a true blue offroad 4x4, then we are all ears. Give us some more information to start speculating.

best wishes,

Jay

[4x4addict]

@behram sir;

Tata vehicles are generally better engineered and designed than their other indigenous counter parts. However, QA/QC seems to be the weak link. Now matter how well you guys engineer the Storme, you cannot let your procurement dept/vendors/QA/QC destroy this effort...

[HappyWheels]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

... In order to achieve this, RWUP (Real World Usage Pattern) becomes the number one requirement and needs to get the attention that it deserves...

BD,

I hope there is an overall review done not just at the product level but also the post-sales & service front. You can over-engineer all that you want and the customer handle it like the apple of his eyes - but come service time and in the wrong hands - all of it goes out the window.

As it stands now, user experience in an authorized center is all across the spectrum, from 0 to 10; and no two visits to the same center is same - too many variables starting from the SA assigned to the mechanic taking up the work sheet.

Not possible to turn things over night at the authorized center by the principle, but they can, within their organization. If the customer knows the parent company is supportive, that does take away a part of the pain. Hope there are some thoughts in these lines.

Originally Posted by jaysmokesleaves

...Also, if that "something" you are busy doing is related to a true blue offroad 4x4, then we are all ears. Give us some more information to start speculating...

[Rahulk76]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

Dear Rahulk76 - you are absolutely correct. The success or lack of it will be determined in the hands of customers like you, nobody can challenge that. The long and short of it is very clear. Nothing happens to the car - EVER - the customer only adds fuel and drives. The word "EVER" in the sentence changes the game completely. That's all. In order to achieve this, RWUP (Real World Usage Pattern) becomes the number one requirement and needs to get the attention that it deserves. Also, converting a product to a brand and then connecting with customers and converting them to become brand ambassadors for life determines success in today's extremely competitive times. I know. I have succeeded once, I am determined to do it again.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

What you say is true Behram in essence. Having a OUTSIDE->IN view is a welcome move and am sure it will take its sweet time to settle down and customers not only like me but everyone gets to benefit.

The context of my post was towards the quality(including its attributes) of the parts being used on the vehicle. That still doesnt end there, the whole lifecycle does matter. The processes will have to mature ( i hope they do).

Anyways back to the topic, only when the vehicle in in market; RWUP and the field reports can second the sucess factor..

Cheers

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

We went up and down umpteen number of times till we were both delighted. Then, we decided to test it out in RWUP (Real World Usage Pattern) . We decimated a Fortuner! The guy could not even keep up, let alone overtake. We have done the same "tuning" exercise of the vehicles' driving dynamics also. Single lane changes are a delight to execute. "Steering lag" is now history.

With all due respect Mr Behram - back in 2005 when TML launched the 'New Dicor' we were told about the amount of real-world testing that the vehicle had been put through - I believe it was 500k kms, I will have to check the launch ppt.

The vehicle I bought did not seem like it had been through a development/test cycle. It never left me stranded anywhere (sold it when it first did - a broken lower arm at about 97k kms, when I was doing a fairly decent speed myself) , but a number of experiences - however small individually - left the owner feeling that:

1. Nobody tested the vehicle with all it's parts put together. Chassis, engine and body perhaps, but not as a fully built car with everything working inside.

2. The number of 3rd party components that were replaced showed either a lack of QC of these components or that the suppliers were squeezed for margins. Why should the buyer have to worry about such issues?

3. Service experience was like participating in a lottery. Sometimes you're blown away by the service, other times you're pulling your hair out. I guess there is nothing the product or research teams can do about this, but you can ensure that the vehicle is well built and put together and does not have to visit the service outlets for anything other than scheduled maintenance.


If this is what follows a real-world test cycle of 500k kms, you will understand why we're skeptical about a fresh set of assurances. I would love to believe what you've said, because the Safari is a fantastic product - if only TML got the execution spot on. However TML has to earn that trust now, and that is not through words or assurances.

[CARDEEP]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

Dear Rahulk76 - you are absolutely correct. The success or lack of it will be determined in the hands of customers like you, nobody can challenge that. The long and short of it is very clear. Nothing happens to the car - EVER - the customer only adds fuel and drives. The word "EVER" in the sentence changes the game completely. That's all. In order to achieve this, RWUP (Real World Usage Pattern) becomes the number one requirement and needs to get the attention that it deserves. Also, converting a product to a brand and then connecting with customers and converting them to become brand ambassadors for life determines success in today's extremely competitive times. I know. I have succeeded once, I am determined to do it again.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

BD Sir

I would put across one simple question, the Safari always pulls strings of the heart, but, should I put my money on it?

It would be my first diesel & leap a faith for owning the Tata.

Thank You in advance

[Motoringlover]

Originally Posted by CARDEEP

BD Sir

I would put across one simple question, the Safari always pulls strings of the heart, but, should I put my money on it?

It would be my first diesel & leap a faith for owning the Tata.

Thank You in advance

I could not have agreed more with the sentiment, I have been a long standing safari lover, but an experience within the family on a second generation indica left a bitter experience and the entire family is just afraid. If you feel you have a good product at hand and focusing on the quality bits + the overall experience someone in the 10+ lac segment expects - you really may have a chance to turn this around. If its of any help - I am willing to renew my faith on TATA - but will be based on feedback here.

Best - Motoringlover

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by Steeroid

If this is what follows a real-world test cycle of 500k kms, you will understand why we're skeptical about a fresh set of assurances. I would love to believe what you've said, because the Safari is a fantastic product - if only TML got the execution spot on. However TML has to earn that trust now, and that is not through words or assurances.

Exactly my sentiments.
I am the owner of a Safari 2.2, and my ownership thread is the stuff of legends. you could write a ballad based on my experiences.
I am still unable to figure out what is Tata doing which will prevent others from having such a horrendous experience.
Is tata doing something now with the new Storme, which it was not doing earlier?
I do not care two hoots about smoking a fortuner or whatever. All I need is a vehicle that goes to the workshop every service, and thats about it.
I do not have unrealistic expectations. I would be happy with clutch lasting 70K kms only(which it did in case of my safari), however, if the new clutch goes hard within 50kms of driving, that is something I would not accept.
I would be okay with power window channels(rubber) requiring replacment every 3 years or so, but I would not be okay with telling the service center at every service that my drivers side power window jams.
I would be okay with filling AC gas every 3 years, but I would not be okay with the roof ac leaking after 2 years of ownership.
I may replace the Safari with the Storme. The reason is not because its the best, the reason is that there is no competition except a scorpio.
So please do some work on the thing, so that I want to replace it with a Storme, and not because I have to.
Right now, I see some hope, like the new steering system, however, many questions are unanswered

1. Aria and Storme share many underpinnings - Why should I not assume that storme owners will not have the same horrendous experience as Aria owners do
2. Rear LSD has been an issue with 4x4 safari's, what has Tata done for that
3. I know many owners who are struggling with service light issues which go away for few days after an injector change, only to come back. What have you done on the engine front?
4. A car like SX4 offers 60,000kms suspension warranty. Why is it only 35K for the safari, which is incidentally the same what is offered on indica, is the SUV not designed for SUV roads?
5. After 3-4 years of use the console buttons become lose, or stop working. They age. What have you done wr.t. that
6. Every 2+ year old safari I see has rusting everywhere. I think its 16th century tech to stop rusting. Even Ashoka pillar does not rust. Why the Safari? And that too in non coastal areas(I live in Delhi, remember)
7. Most safari 4x4 owners struggle with alignment and camber issues. Why? What has been done to address the problem
8. Every owner I have met gets some transfer case issues before 100,000kms. Why? Arent transfer cases for 4x4 supposed to last for 200,000kms?
9. Why do clutch master and slave cylinder fail so often. They are not clutch plates, right?

I am sure many others will have their own lists. My list if 4x4 specific.
500,000kms real world testing? did you start doing this on the storme? Or was it done before. If it was done before also, then I have no faith in the storme.

[Steeroid]

Dear Mr Behram

Request you to treat my feedback in isolation and not react to it in tandem with other posts here.

My Safari experience has had its share of issues, but none of them (except the last) were deal-breaking. I have logged my highest mileage on any one vehicle (and I have been through about two dozen so far) on it and there are several pleasant and happy memories, many instances where the vehicle has proved that it is much more capable than it is ever given credit for.

It is a great vehicle, one which I would buy again if certain issues are addressed- not because there are no other choices, but because of what it is. My expectation is purely that the team at TML are able to give buyers the ability to experience its potential without having it disturbed by the distractions that it came packaged with previously. I will not attempt to teach you how to make a vehicle, and do not expect you to be able to fix all issues - its a hope that the message will get through to the right people. The fact that people like Hari (Luke) were asked to experience the vehicle & provide feedback well before launch shows that the organization is open to constructive criticism.

Over and out.

[amit_mechengg]

Dear BD sir, your previous posts are very encouraging.
After driving the storme for 2 days in traffic as well as undulated roads and highway i can vouch for 2 things.

1. The tuning is very good and one can hardly feel the turbo lag or lack of throttle response.

2. Noise though negligible on idling is bit more while accelerating through 2000-2300 rpms especially the " Krrrr Krrrr " noise

3. Interiors are of top class quality and give a premium classy feel.


Coming to the catch points:

There are so many confused vendors who supply parts for ARIA and hence iwll supply for Storme. You must be knowing very well that there are so many cars lying with missing parts.

The dual mass flywheel issues!! Can you say confidently that they are sorted out?

Lets not speak about the quality of components here by vendors. What can a vendor do when the casting and machining cost given is so low that he cannot afford to manufacture them on hitech CNC , VMC machines?

I just came to know the exact pricing yesterday on all the models and the LX is very much in my budget, but my consciousness is holding me a bit to take the plunge for storme.

I dont know exactly what to do , but many forces are hinting me to buy the proven(not fully defect free) old TATA SAFARI LX.

Tuning on the DICOR is also very easy and after market remap can match the Storme tuning if not better it.

Also lately i heard that i can swap the interiors of Storme to SAFARI

What do you suggest in case of my dilemma ?

[smsrini]

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

Also lately i heard that i can swap the interiors of Storme to SAFARI

Amit, what does the above mean ? why would someone want to swap the new interiors for the old one on a new car ? or rather why buy the old safari and plonk new interiors including dash and all the associated bits ? wont that be an uphill task ?

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

I just came to know the exact pricing yesterday on all the models and the LX is very much in my budget, but my consciousness is holding me a bit to take the plunge for storme.

Will Tata offer 4x4 in lower variants. I hope Tata does not do the mistake of offering 4x4 only on top variants. It will push the storme out of the budget for some of us.