[Dry Ice]

Originally Posted by Torqy

With an immensely popular / reliable product like Tempo Traveller, why can't they ride that wave...and show some of that in Gurkha range?

Tempo Traveller is nothing to write about. It is a commercial people mover. Successful only because there is nothing else like it available in the market.

Gurkha is niche vehicle. Whatever they do, it won't ever sell as much. Also, dealing with only the commercial segment I guess they are out-of-touch of the personal vehicle segment. I wonder what they will do when the crash tests/airbags/ABS etc becomes mandatory for personal vehicles.

[1100D]

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

Tempo Traveller is nothing to write about. It is a commercial people mover. Successful only because there is nothing else like it available in the market.

The Tempo Traveller, is a Mercedes-Benz T1 Transporter, manufactured by Force in an assembly line completely designed/approved by Daimler Benz. You are right that it is a commercial people mover, but, it will be unfair to say there is nothing to write home about it. Its a Monocoque vehicle (even the Tata Winger is, being based on the Renault Trafic, but it came in much later and uses Tata's own old engine) and has quite a bit of Ride and NVH refinement for its segment.

The fact that its completely designed and built on Mercedes approved assembly line, gives confidence to Force to provide better level of warranty/service support to this particular vehicle, rather than their other in-house products borrowing bits and pieces from Mercedes-Benz.

[Dry Ice]

Originally Posted by 1100D

The Tempo Traveller, is a Mercedes-Benz T1 Transporter, manufactured by Force in an assembly line completely designed/approved by Daimler Benz. You are right that it is a commercial people mover, but, it will be unfair to say there is nothing to write home about it. Its a Monocoque vehicle (even the Tata Winger is, being based on the Renault Trafic, but it came in much later and uses Tata's own old engine) and has quite a bit of Ride and NVH refinement for its segment.

The fact that its completely designed and built on Mercedes approved assembly line, gives confidence to Force to provide better level of warranty/service support to this particular vehicle, rather than their other in-house products borrowing bits and pieces from Mercedes-Benz.

I know its credentials (Mercedes heritage)

AFAIK, they ceased its production in the mid 90s. Force keeps flagging it coz there is nothing else to challenge it. The trouble with Gurkha is, there are better products available (better not in terms of performance or competence, but overall ownership experience). The same process they follow with TT, might not help Gurkha, that's all am saying. And it's not from a manufacturing point of view. There are several other verticals you need to care of while selling a personal vehicle.

[1100D]

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

AFAIK, they ceased its production in the mid 90s. Force keeps flagging it coz there is nothing else to challenge it.

Actually, its still holds quite good with respect to Modern standards, with the OM611 engine, ABS integration and the wide-body conversion (retaining monocoque design), all done in collaboration and guidance of the parent company. Mercedes, as a company does not let its complete models go loose.

Infact the T1 transporter hails from an era, which is widely regarded as the epitome of automobile engineering, especially from Daimler Benz. Case in point, if you take a ride in a W123/W124 you would not find it way off the present day cars. The regulations/safety norms and also company strategy have dictated vehicles to have been developed differently later.

So the Force Traveller example will not hold good for the Gurkha, which is not a Mercedes product.

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

The trouble with Gurkha is, there are better products available (better not in terms of performance or competence, but overall ownership experience). The same process they follow with TT, might not help Gurkha, that's all am saying. And it's not from a manufacturing point of view. There are several other verticals you need to care of while selling a personal vehicle.

True that.

However, one of the most widely discussed weak point of the Gurkha and it continuing to use the OM616 derived engine. I have been lead to believe that modification to the OM616 to what it is today and also Common Railing the engine was also controlled and supervised by the parent company.

The usage of the OM611 engine (FM 2.2) did not get a nod from the original makers to be used with the old chassis (Gurkha), on grounds of incompatibility. The new chassis, probably will get them to allow usage of the FM 2.2 on the Gurkha.

But having said that, even in this case, the rest of the vehicle would still have peripherals added by Force, and less said about them, the better!

However, if Force makes the FM2.2 Gurkha a reality, just the Powertrain, the diff-locks, the snorkel and the looks should be reason enough to keep one, vehicles like these will be extinct soon!

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by 1100D

However, one of the most widely discussed weak point of the Gurkha and it continuing to use the OM616 derived engine.

They have two iterations of the FM2.6 CR (OM616 derived) engine. In the Traveller it makes 91 bhp (2800 rpm)/250 nm Torque from (1400 to 2400 rpm). I don't know why they detuned the engine for the Gurkha.

Why would you have two states of tune for the same engine which are so close to each other and put the lower spec tune in a 10 lakhs plus personal recreational vehicle. With the traveller spec, the Torque number would have been same as the Thar.

[1100D]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

They have two iterations of the FM2.6 CR (OM616 derived) engine. In the Traveller it makes 91 bhp (2800 rpm)/250 nm Torque from (1400 to 2400 rpm). I don't know why they detuned the engine for the Gurkha.

Why would you have two states of tune for the same engine which are so close to each other and put the lower spec tune in a 10 lakhs plus personal recreational vehicle. With the traveller spec, the Torque number would have been same as the Thar.

As far as my understanding, the present Gurkha is still an intermittent stop gap vehicle, infact there can be an argument as to why this facelift was launched at all.

Forget the 91 bhp state of tune, which they could not get approvals to fit on the new chassis, the FM 2.2 will take it to 130 bhp with 300nm, work is still going on the chassis to take the additional turning force. However, the 2.2 surely looks to face another hurdle of meeting crash safety, when it comes.

So we are actually quite far off from the Gurkha we want!

[Torqy]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

They have two iterations of the FM2.6 CR (OM616 derived) engine. In the Traveller it makes 91 bhp (2800 rpm)/250 nm Torque from (1400 to 2400 rpm). I don't know why they detuned the engine for the Gurkha.

Maybe to keep it sober so that it doesn't become a road-rocket and to keep it "under control" with not much on safety thrown into the design.

[roy_libran]

Originally Posted by 1100D

So we are actually quite far off from the Gurkha we want!

Bang On! And every step FM takes, is taking the Gurkha further away from that!

It's actually best written off now by FM, and this thread may as well be closed by TBHP.

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by Torqy

Maybe to keep it sober so that it doesn't become a road-rocket and to keep it "under control" with not much on safety thrown into the design.

Lol, road rocket weighing over 2 tons with a 91 bhp engine.

Originally Posted by roy_libran

Bang On! And every step FM takes, is taking the Gurkha further away from that!

I kind of disagree, cause I am just two steps away from buying one. 1) Better engine power spec and 2) Better dash. These two will meet my requirements.

Originally Posted by 1100D

Forget the 91 bhp state of tune, which they could not get approvals to fit on the new chassis,

I don't understand. The FM2.6 with 91bhp/250NM in the Traveller is the exact same block as the FM2.6 with the 85bhp/230NM engine in the Gurkha. Why would they have any problem with approvals? It is just poor planning on their part.

[1100D]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

The FM2.6 with 91bhp/250NM in the Traveller is the exact same block as the FM2.6 with the 85bhp/230NM engine in the Gurkha. Why would they have any problem with approvals? It is just poor planning on their part.

There's more to matching a state of tune of an engine, than compatibility of the block for dimensions and weight. (As a parallel example, Mahindra already had the 140 bhp state of tune for the 2.2 mHawk, but did not implement it on the old chassis, although its their own engine and its exactly same) . The Traveller is out-and-out a Mercedes and its chassis/monocoque frame is already known to Mercedes to be able to allow/accomodate the higher output powertrains. Same is not true for the Gurkha. FM till now is allowed this state of tune of FM 2.6 for it.

Whether or not getting approvals (not a mere signature approval by the way) to use this small incremental increase in output, of this intermittent stop-gap version of this vehicle, qualifies as poor planning will never be known at this point!

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by 1100D

The Traveller is out-and-out a Mercedes and its chassis/monocoque frame is already known to Mercedes to be able to allow/accomodate the higher output powertrains. Same is not true for the Gurkha. FM till now is allowed this state of tune of FM 2.6 for it.

The chasis, suspension and gearbox of this vehicle is basically the underpinnings and the gearbox of the Force One which carried the FM2.2 engine good for about 135 odd bhp and 36kgm Torque. Besides, I don't see how a 6bhp power increase and 20 NM Torque increase will make the vehicle unstable.

Mahindra kept the mhawk at 120 for the Scorpio cause they have positioned it a notch below the XUV. The new chasis can handle 140 bhp, but they will make the Scorpio 140 only after pushing the XUV 100 higher.

I can see your point when making a drastic increase in power but not for the difference between the FM2.6 in Gurkha/Traveller.

[1100D]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

The chasis, suspension and gearbox of this vehicle is basically the underpinnings and the gearbox of the Force One which carried the FM2.2 engine good for about 135 odd bhp and 36kgm Torque. Besides, I don't see how a 6bhp power increase and 20 NM Torque increase will make the vehicle unstable.

Mahindra kept the mhawk at 120 for the Scorpio cause they have positioned it a notch below the XUV. The new chasis can handle 140 bhp, but they will make the Scorpio 140 only after pushing the XUV 100 higher.

I can see your point when making a drastic increase in power but not for the difference between the FM2.6 in Gurkha/Traveller.

From a logical perspective, you are right. But the manufacturing world has more to it these days than what is easily possible. I have been following up internally about this vehicle, which is where, I got a few insights, which wasn't very apparent to me before.

Just trying to portray it in generic terms without going into details that I got mainly due to familiarity with some people (infact I already have commented quite a bit - mainly because a lot of enthusiasts are awaiting a 220CDI engined Gurkha or even the higher state of tune of the FM2.6)

The world today is unforgiving, especially when you have bought rights to use technology from another, or even have developed on top of it. The parent company does not let you run free. They have usage based contracts, wherein specifics are mentioned. Just to let you know, what the contract allowed on Force One, they will not automatically be extended to another vehicle, even if it uses the same chassis, unless the original company "evaluates/approves" the usage. Each such initiative wherein the parent company is engaged to "evaluate" is charged back. One can imagine the magnitude of the charges involved when the company is among the best in the world! FM does not have any new engine/state of tune approvals for the Gurkha than what was there last time (when it was launched with the outrageous 4x4x4 sticker), the good thing is, if at all there is a next one, it might be the 2.2.

Till then, to give you something to cheer about, since you are just weeks away from procuring this one, an owner can get himself to do what the company might be handicapped to offer!! Hope you get the drift.

[dieselhead]

Dunno what kind of a company FM really is. A guy like me interested to buy their Gurkha no matter what the shortcomings are, yet the company is least bothered to sell it to me. First the vehicle is only sold in a few locations across few states. Even if I was prepared to buy it , make a TR and drive it home and register it is not accepted by the company owned dealership in Pune. The most bizarre thing the sales rep told me that I have to buy the gurkha with stock wheels and tyres and then buy the optional alloys and MT separately.

[1100D]

Originally Posted by dieselhead

The most bizarre thing the sales rep told me that I have to buy the gurkha with stock wheels and tyres and then buy the optional alloys and MT separately.

What's bizarre in that?! The Gurkha does not have a variant that has Alloys and MT tyres as standard. Neither does the Mahindra Thar, just for comparison!

[dieselhead]

Originally Posted by 1100D

What's bizarre in that?! The Gurkha does not have a variant that has Alloys and MT tyres as standard. Neither does the Mahindra Thar, just for comparison!

My understanding of the proposition purely as I think logically why would someone buy 2 sets of tyres n wheels. Can be normal for others though.