[Samurai]

Originally Posted by ex670c

2) Why do you need to make incremental mods?

When something is engineered to specification, multiple modifications can be done simultaneously and can be integrated in the end. This is how engineers operate, this is how I operate in my profession life.

But the modifications to my Jeep is hardly engineering. I want something done, but I am not sure about the right way to do it. After all, I am not an qualified automobile/mechanical engineer who can understand all the issues involved. So I end up trying one thing at a time.

For example, I wanted to install couple of D-Shackle eyelets on my Jeep front bumper which can be used to tow my Jeep. The eyelets were designed by an mechanical engineer (Suresh Stephan) who understood the stress factors involved. So that is a real engineered piece. But the mounting of it was another factor. How do I know whether the bumper is strong enough? I don't know. So, I asked the mechanic to use a L bracket from the inside of the front bumper, and mount the eyelets on the one arm of the L, while the other arm is bolted to the chassis. This is just guess-work and not engineering. But the mechanic felt it may not be enough, so he suggested connecting a C-section from inside and then bolt it to the chassis., basically one long U bracket instead of two L brackets. It is again guess-work, but a guess-work by a more experienced guesser. So I agreed, and at no time I assumed it was engineering. Only the eyelets and the earlier winch mount designed and made by Suresh Stephan are examples of engineering, for he could exactly design it for a required load rating.

Originally Posted by ex670c

Just one questions Have you designed or built a car?

I have designed many huge/complex architectures which is no different than designing a car. Even car designers mostly design cars in front of a computer monitor sitting in an AC room.

Originally Posted by headers

If the target market is "farm only" or "lifestyle" vehicle, then it leaves a lot to be desired.

I thought it was clear by now. This is not at all meant for farm usage, not with a CDRe engine under the hood. This is purely a life-style vehicle.

Originally Posted by '72 Bullet

Your words Samurai-san not mine.

This is not about your friend in any case, it was just an example to show how engineering is now more about numbers and number-crunching and less about passion, innovation and ingenuity.

And in this case, the something useful is already there, but the engineer is ignoring Scientific principles in favor of Economic principles.

Correct?

Not Correct. Engineer can't ignore scientific principles. This is a case of engineer designing to specification. If the requirement says that the component should handle X amount of load, then the engineer will design for that with some extra tolerance. Just because some odd customer subjects it to X+5 amount of load causing it to fail, doesn't make the design bad. It is simply not designed for it, that's all.

Originally Posted by ex670c

Hi Samurai,

I think the M&M R&D Team, have missed you.

You are a genius.

Arka, do we really need this kind of sarcasm to have a rational discussion?

[DKG]

The Nano is a classic example of how a marketing directive of cost drove the entire engineering team to deliver a product to that requirement.

BTW the mechanic does that too. If you want things cheap he will fit used or counterfeit parts

[howler]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

Guys:

3) Wait for Mr. Behram to start the "Refreshed Thar with Buck Tooth Wish List"..

LOL! youre right addict. theres no point wasting time with this thread anymore, basically its about a manufacturer whos living in the past, run by folks imagining they live in the future and catered to by folks like us with no other choice, which is mis-interpreted by M&M to be loyalty.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by headers

i think you should NOT use that set on the bumpers of a jeep. While tugging it may/will rip of the bumper.

Any such device should be attached to the chassis correctly to withstand the purpose.

So you don't trust the mechanic designed brackets?

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by '72 Bullet

... it was just an example to show how engineering is now more about numbers and number-crunching and less about passion, innovation and ingenuity..... but the engineer is ignoring Scientific principles in favor of Economic principles.

Correct?

My experience is that the engineers get it right. The accountants, marketing twinks and management dead-heads then come in and defecate on it.

I think the polarities created here in this thread between the passion of a mechanic and the precision of an engineer are a bit artificial. If you read Behram's posts carefully, several of them, then I think you will see that he has a fire in his belly about his work, even if you do not like everything about his end product.

I worked for a short time as a test driver for Dana corporation. Dana is an international corp. that makes many drive train and 4x4 parts used by M&M and other companies. When things broke unexpectedly sometimes a high ranking engineer would show up at the test site and dive under the vehicle with wrench and flashlight and work hand in hand with the techncians (level one mechanics). They would come up hours later with their good clothes ruined, covered with gease and dirt. These guys would miss their supper, abandon their families and forego watching the big game on TV because they were fascinated and intrigued with their work. I, in turn, was fascinated and intrigued by their absolute dedication to their job.

I agree with off-road-maniac and 4x4addict. All this rancor over the Thar is misplaced or at least, futile. It's a done deal. Let us wait and watch and see what develops.

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

When things broke unexpectedly sometimes a high ranking engineer would show up at the test site and dive under the vehicle with wrench and flashlight and work hand in hand with the techncians (level one mechanics). They would come up hours later with their good clothes ruined, covered with gease and dirt. These guys would miss their supper, abandon their families and forego watching the big game on TV because they were fascinated and intrigued with their work. I, in turn, was fascinated and intrigued by their absolute dedication to their job.

Well said DD, although you will find very few similar guys, but they exist in very few numbers, i have come across only 1 in my few years stint, you know whom i am talking about.

Spike

[the_trooper]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

Till that time, I'm enjoying every drive. 99.9% of my use is commuting, so its zip zap zoom with other road users wondering what just whizzed past. I like my Thar this way. I don't go offroad every day and have no intention of doing so. I don't have to prove anything to anybody any more. So finally IT GIVES ME EXACTLY WHAT I WANT.. In the end, it should give you what you want.

I thought this was about what off road enthusiasts wanted.

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

If we have to sell a vehicle in India, we must meet BS4 norms. There is no escaping this fact. Even if CL340 were to be remade (it is not difficult for me, 90% of the body exists anyways), where do I get an engine which will meet BS4? Considering I use the Thar engine, where does that leave me on suspension configuration? And then, why should a customer not buy the Thar and be done with it?

However, as far as human endeavor is concerned, nothing is impossible.

Please draw your own conclusions.

It's one thing to say that "not financially viable, we are here to do business, not cater to a minuscule group of enthusiasts", which by the way, is perfectly acceptable. A product has to be financially viable for the manufacturer to make it. Nobody is in the business to do charity.

But it's a whole different thing to say "Why can't you guys just live with what we are trying to sell over here?"

I somehow can't seem to digest this thought process.

[rhandle]

I have driven thar, and to me it felt it would be at par with all the old jeeps behind whether off-road or on-road.

Personally I do not have all the technical knowledge and neither I intend to gain. I would like to have a vehicle which would just pamper me and not turn me in to mechanic. Also that vehicle should be able to keep me with all my technical friends and off-road it should be able to keep pace with them.

I do not think a manufacturer can keep everyone happy. I believe most of the buyers would be people like me - who want to drive and still do not want to get their hands dirty. A line production will always remain for masses.

If some one wants more purpose built and customized vehicle they would need to shell money for that. I guess even Mahindra's customization department should be able to help.

BTW I just saw FJ Icon website. Where they are making Icon upward of $100K and your good old 3B upward of $70K.

[avkurian]

Just wanted to add my two bits here. Sad to see many of the stalwarts cribbing that the manufacturer has not taken everything they said as gold.

Here's something to think about: Offroaders everywhere would agree that every terrain is different, and calls for different requirements from the vehicle. Are we so blinkered that we believe that M&M should launch a region-specific variant based on our backyard offroading? Why would M&M bring out a vehicle suitable for rock-crawling alone, when India herself offers desert terrain, snow, and so many other kinds. Even the Jeep Wrangler, the Toyota Landcruiser, and the FJ Cruiser technically can be seen as soft-roaders until they are modified by owners based on personal preference and most-often-tackled

Either ways, whether the Thar sees the light of day or not, there is always the possibility for people to buy used or army-decommissioned 540/550's and customise to their heart's content.

[GTO]

Guys, this discussion is getting unnecessarily heated, and there still isn't even a Thar in the showrooms YET! I'm going to temporarily close this thread, and reopen - hopefully - with a full fledged test report sometime in the future.

[sarmarishi]

Came across this article in the Hindu Business Line today. It says that the Thar will be launched in a month or so. They expect to sell about 5000 Thars a year and their main target will be the North-east, Rajasthan and Kerala in the space provided by the limited production of the Gypsy.

The Hindu Business Line : M&M to drive into niche SUV segment with ‘Thar'

I searched all Thar threads to post this but all of them have been closed by Mods. Please merge it if any of them have been left open. I couldnt find any.

[Samurai]

Note from Mod : The Thar's full test & review has been uploaded at this link. Thread closed. Please continue the discussion over on the review thread.