My weird experience with alternator whine (Alpine HU)

Sam Kapasi · 22nd September 2006, 17:29

I don't think those work with electronic ignition systems.

NIP · 22nd September 2006, 22:10

sorry...had to ask someplace....so here goes...sam...whats with the kannada JBL tune ?! looks like some bang city chick influence ?!

jkdas · 22nd September 2006, 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by NIP

sorry...had to ask someplace....so here goes...sam...whats with the kannada JBL tune ?! looks like some bang city chick influence ?!

He just flew down from Berlin. Check the chicks on his avatar ( they look European to me)

Autophile · 23rd September 2006, 14:21

Using good quality batteries like Bosch Silver, Panasonic, Varta, MM and Optima do help in improving sound and rejecting alternator whine.

I also used to face constant whine problem (barely audible but irritating) with my car running on Standard Furukava but when changed to Magneti Marelli it disappeared.

Sam Kapasi · 23rd September 2006, 15:22

Magneti marelli??? Where does one buy a magneti battery in India?

DRC · 23rd September 2006, 16:37

Well, I am no expert in ICE... But you know , Fundamentals help!

My take on this issue... Blame me for giving theories, A battery and any other electrical load is what it is LOAD, on the alternator. Alternator produces alternating current(AC) and is rectified for Direct current (DC), which contains a part AC which is called ripple, which gets into other electricals and loads. Here in your case alternator whine. an undesired voltage variation to very high voltages (sometimes as much as 25Volts)

Usually in elctronic circuits, they use a filter to ironout these ripple and provide a clean DC. And a great deal of engineering goes into designing these filters depending on the load spectrum and frequency spectrum. Usually a right value of capacitor solves the problem most of the time, but as loads get complex, filter gets complex too. I am not sure if these filters exist in automobiles as battery itself is a huge capacitor and acts as a filter. This may not be new to the guys with ICE experts as I am talking about crossovers.

If you wanna get rid of this whine, curb the ripple. But How?
Frequency domain:
If it is whine, it usually is a high frequency noise (including super hormonics of alternating frequency). Give an ear to the whine, its frequency may be varying according to the rev of the engine. and at a point of rpm, it may vanish. If you find the whine is more at higher revs, choose a lower value of capcitor, and if it is higher at lower revs, choose a higher value of capacitor at the load. I mean at your amp or the HU. (I am assuming you have isolated the thing which is picking up this whine). This should take care of the whine irrespective of battery condition. This may solve Rudra sir's problem.

Load factor:
Above is fine, but why battery changes the charecteristics of the whine? Well different charge conditions pose different loads on the alternator additional to the other electrical loads. Do this experiment. While on the music and the whine is audible, go on adding the electrical loads, loke head lights, AC, rear defogger, etc..Most likely you may notice increase in whine. (keep the engine idling or at constant rpm). While capacitors are good filters they would usually do not live up to expectation at higher load, So use a inductor in series. From alternator to the battery. Inductor block the ripple more effectively at higher loads. In fact, higher the load better the suppression.

PS: I have not suggested any values of capacitors or inductors because the choice of them depends on many factors including the alternator design. It is easy and safe to experiment with the capacitors as mentioned in Frequency domain experiments, but use caution if you decide to experiment with the alternator. This involves identifying the correct DC line from rectifier and cutting the factory wiring.

Enjoy good music

Insane Devil · 24th September 2006, 18:46

I had this whine in my Scorpio earlier, and it started in my Tucson too. My friend got me a small piece of device which connected somewhere near the battery, and after that all noise totally gone!

Even had slight intereference noise when the OEM horn was honked. The additional huge Bosch horns never gave any problems. that also got solved with the little device that he put in.

amit_mechengg · 8th March 2008, 21:44

gurus!! some serious help is needed. i struggled hard for more than 25 hours to get that Alternator Whine out of my system. i did the re-wiring , changed the RCA cable and re-routed all the cables as per the guidelines given in the forum.
but the noise didnt go. then i changed the AMP and the sound vanished. But after one day driving again the sound is creeping in. not as much as it was earlier, but its quite audible when heard properly, especially in Zero Volume.
then i increase the volume to 2-5 i dont hear the sound.
these come through my JBL GTO 937 speakers which are powered by a 2 channel AMP. the woofer doesnt make such sounds.

some people suggest that i put a condenser on the Coil which powers the spark plugs. but i worry that will damage my other electricals. might be the ECU.

whose the culprit here. i put my hands UP. please help.

navin · 8th March 2008, 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

but the noise didnt go. then i changed the AMP and the sound vanished.
these come through my JBL GTO 937 speakers which are powered by a 2 channel AMP. the woofer doesnt make such sounds.

what amp did you change? what was the old amp? the new one?
what amp powers your woofers?
what cables do you use? Power and RCA
which car is this?

amit_mechengg · 9th March 2008, 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by navin

what amp did you change? what was the old amp? the new one?
what amp powers your woofers?
what cables do you use? Power and RCA
which car is this?

hello navin sir, Mr car is an Alto.
my Sony XM-602 2 channel amp powers my Sub. its a 350 watts amp.
my Dynamo amp powers the Rear JBL GTO 937 speakers.
it was a brand new amp, when suddenly after fitting the HU in its place in the dashboard the alternator whine creeped in. then we swapped the amps and found that sony amp doesnt give alternator whine. So i replaced the Dynamo amp and the problem got solved. after a tiry 22 hours efforts i drove home satisfied day before yesterday.
then suddenly since today afternoon the sound is creeping in again. some times its loud sometimes its low.

. but it is not as loud as earlier.

i have put sound stream power cable and RCA cable to dyanamo which powers the rear speakers. i have used finolex power cabling and some blue RCA cable from hu to the Sony Amp which powers my subwoofer.

i have grounded both the amps seperately to the bolts on the seats.

navin · 9th March 2008, 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

i have grounded both the amps seperately to the bolts on the seats.

I think you got a ground loop. ground both amps and Hu to same point. ensure that the ground is corrosion free.

I hope your RCA and power cables do not run parallel to each other.

amit_mechengg · 9th March 2008, 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by navin

I think you got a ground loop. ground both amps and Hu to same point. ensure that the ground is corrosion free.

I hope your RCA and power cables do not run parallel to each other.

i have grounded the HU just behind the dashboard. i was under the perception the i need to ground both the amps seperately.

i read it in your earlier post point no VIII
Noise Prevention

VIII. Don't connect all of your amplifier ground wires under one bolt. Contrary to belief, this is not required if the rest of the system is installed properly. If you do connect more than one power ground wire under a single bolt, you run the risk of amplifier ground modulation. This is caused by the current demands of, for example a woofer amp, modulating the power ground wire of a tweeter amp. This results in a squeaking noise that can be heard over the tweeters whenever bass notes hit.

the RCA cables run from the extreme right and left doors and the power cables run from centre of the car beneath the carpet.

navin · 9th March 2008, 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

i read it in your earlier post point no VIII
Noise Prevention

to quote same link
"II. Don't introduce ground loops. Ground loops are created whenever an audio ground is established at more than one location. Theoretically, the only place the audio ground should be connected to the chassis ground is at the source unit. In my experience, I've found that in systems that have noise problems, a ground loop is the culprit nine times out of ten."

also later in that link they describe how to eliminate whine.

amit_mechengg · 9th March 2008, 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by navin

to quote same link
"II. Don't introduce ground loops. Ground loops are created whenever an audio ground is established at more than one location. Theoretically, the only place the audio ground should be connected to the chassis ground is at the source unit. In my experience, I've found that in systems that have noise problems, a ground loop is the culprit nine times out of ten."

also later in that link they describe how to eliminate whine.

SIR, i had taken a 5 page printout of the same thing and went to the installer.
i followed each step serially and carefully. opened each and every wire and refitted it. at last i changed the amp and it vanished. but again it has creeped in today. i am wondering if again the new amp is the culprit then what makes the AMP go KAPUT.

alto99 · 9th March 2008, 01:15

I guess I have a unique alternator whine present in my alto.
I have pioneer keh-6950 and the whine is present only when I play cassettes ( i actually never play them, but still). When I use tuner or aux in it is completely absent.
ICE consists of front speakers, amp powering Rear sub, rear co-axials and tweeters but I guess the problem is more related to HU because if I move the HU away from console( after removing it) the whine reduces.
Any pointers to kill the whine will be helpful.

22nd September 2006, 17:29	#31
Sam Kapasi Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Mumbai (but wat Posts: 6,939 Thanked: 2,479 Times View My Garage	I don't think those work with electronic ignition systems.
	() Thanks

22nd September 2006, 22:10	#32
NIP Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Bangalore Posts: 1,179 Thanked: 152 Times View My Garage	sorry...had to ask someplace....so here goes...sam...whats with the kannada JBL tune ?! looks like some bang city chick influence ?! Last edited by NIP : 22nd September 2006 at 22:11.
	() Thanks

23rd September 2006, 14:21	#34
Autophile BHPian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: New Delhi Posts: 931 Thanked: 4 Times	Using good quality batteries like Bosch Silver, Panasonic, Varta, MM and Optima do help in improving sound and rejecting alternator whine. I also used to face constant whine problem (barely audible but irritating) with my car running on Standard Furukava but when changed to Magneti Marelli it disappeared.
	() Thanks

23rd September 2006, 15:22	#35
Sam Kapasi Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Mumbai (but wat Posts: 6,939 Thanked: 2,479 Times View My Garage	Magneti marelli??? Where does one buy a magneti battery in India?
	() Thanks

23rd September 2006, 16:37	#36
DRC BHPian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cockpit Posts: 907 Thanked: 67 Times View My Garage	Well, I am no expert in ICE... But you know , Fundamentals help! My take on this issue... Blame me for giving theories, A battery and any other electrical load is what it is LOAD, on the alternator. Alternator produces alternating current(AC) and is rectified for Direct current (DC), which contains a part AC which is called ripple, which gets into other electricals and loads. Here in your case alternator whine. an undesired voltage variation to very high voltages (sometimes as much as 25Volts) Usually in elctronic circuits, they use a filter to ironout these ripple and provide a clean DC. And a great deal of engineering goes into designing these filters depending on the load spectrum and frequency spectrum. Usually a right value of capacitor solves the problem most of the time, but as loads get complex, filter gets complex too. I am not sure if these filters exist in automobiles as battery itself is a huge capacitor and acts as a filter. This may not be new to the guys with ICE experts as I am talking about crossovers. If you wanna get rid of this whine, curb the ripple. But How? Frequency domain: If it is whine, it usually is a high frequency noise (including super hormonics of alternating frequency). Give an ear to the whine, its frequency may be varying according to the rev of the engine. and at a point of rpm, it may vanish. If you find the whine is more at higher revs, choose a lower value of capcitor, and if it is higher at lower revs, choose a higher value of capacitor at the load. I mean at your amp or the HU. (I am assuming you have isolated the thing which is picking up this whine). This should take care of the whine irrespective of battery condition. This may solve Rudra sir's problem. Load factor: Above is fine, but why battery changes the charecteristics of the whine? Well different charge conditions pose different loads on the alternator additional to the other electrical loads. Do this experiment. While on the music and the whine is audible, go on adding the electrical loads, loke head lights, AC, rear defogger, etc..Most likely you may notice increase in whine. (keep the engine idling or at constant rpm). While capacitors are good filters they would usually do not live up to expectation at higher load, So use a inductor in series. From alternator to the battery. Inductor block the ripple more effectively at higher loads. In fact, higher the load better the suppression. PS: I have not suggested any values of capacitors or inductors because the choice of them depends on many factors including the alternator design. It is easy and safe to experiment with the capacitors as mentioned in Frequency domain experiments, but use caution if you decide to experiment with the alternator. This involves identifying the correct DC line from rectifier and cutting the factory wiring. Enjoy good music
	() Thanks

24th September 2006, 18:46	#37
Insane Devil BHPian Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hyderabad Posts: 999 Thanked: 186 Times View My Garage	I had this whine in my Scorpio earlier, and it started in my Tucson too. My friend got me a small piece of device which connected somewhere near the battery, and after that all noise totally gone! Even had slight intereference noise when the OEM horn was honked. The additional huge Bosch horns never gave any problems. that also got solved with the little device that he put in.
	() Thanks

8th March 2008, 21:44	#38
amit_mechengg Senior - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Pune Posts: 2,488 Thanked: 2,263 Times View My Garage	gurus!! some serious help is needed. i struggled hard for more than 25 hours to get that Alternator Whine out of my system. i did the re-wiring , changed the RCA cable and re-routed all the cables as per the guidelines given in the forum. but the noise didnt go. then i changed the AMP and the sound vanished. But after one day driving again the sound is creeping in. not as much as it was earlier, but its quite audible when heard properly, especially in Zero Volume. then i increase the volume to 2-5 i dont hear the sound. these come through my JBL GTO 937 speakers which are powered by a 2 channel AMP. the woofer doesnt make such sounds. some people suggest that i put a condenser on the Coil which powers the spark plugs. but i worry that will damage my other electricals. might be the ECU. whose the culprit here. i put my hands UP. please help. Last edited by amit_mechengg : 8th March 2008 at 21:46.
	() Thanks

9th March 2008, 01:15	#45
alto99 BHPian Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Pune Posts: 348 Thanked: 71 Times	I guess I have a unique alternator whine present in my alto. I have pioneer keh-6950 and the whine is present only when I play cassettes ( i actually never play them, but still). When I use tuner or aux in it is completely absent. ICE consists of front speakers, amp powering Rear sub, rear co-axials and tweeters but I guess the problem is more related to HU because if I move the HU away from console( after removing it) the whine reduces. Any pointers to kill the whine will be helpful.
	() Thanks