[libranof1987]

If the break even is reasonable (in terms of no. of years taken on say a 3k/person ticket in economy), I think this is a good initiative.

We spend far too much energy and time in transportation, not because the distances are too long but because the infrastructure is weak.

So, why not something like this.

Going by the movement against fossil fuels, investing in rail network helps. (This argument is moot given the current power generation situation in India but let's be hopeful it changes)

We have to move forward; and Ahmedabad - Mumbai isn't that bad a start.

Originally Posted by Jaggu

In a developing country like India where our mass rail systems are way below par compared to developed countries, i would have preferred such investments and collaboration to happen there (normal rail) first instead of this leap frog mentality. While this bullet train sounds very positive and ambitious on paper, i always feel the billion plus populations would benefit better with more widespread infrastructure projects, which the bullet train is not.

For a country to give out such a loan, there has to be something in it for them as well, doesn't it.

Japan perhaps is so enthusiastic about this investment because it creates jobs for them (manufacturing of trains).

There's no free lunch.

We are not exactly capable of creating first-world infrastructure so when we ask around for help, there's bound to be some agenda.

[ksameer1234]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

In a developing country like India where our mass rail systems are way below par compared to developed countries, i would have preferred such investments and collaboration to happen there (normal rail) first instead of this leap frog mentality.

Work is already underway to upgrade 13-odd routes across India to higher speeds by methods such as tweaking bends and removing level crossings. Then there is Diamond Quadrilateral high speed rail network apart from the Delhi-Amritsar, Delhi-Chennai and Chennai-Mysore routes identified for high speed rail.

None of these are bullet train route and there are ongoing efforts in every direction. If there is a demand for bullet train and availability of funds, why not do it?

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by ksameer1234

If there is a demand for bullet train and availability of funds, why not do it?

The demand or atleast the logic used in decision is where i don't see a clarity. Fund? Well it is a huge tab on tax payers which can be better utilised elsewhere i feel.

Originally Posted by libranof1987

For a country to give out such a loan, there has to be something in it for them as well, doesn't it.

Japan perhaps is so enthusiastic about this investment because it creates jobs for them (manufacturing of trains).

There's no free lunch.

We are not exactly capable of creating first-world infrastructure so when we ask around for help, there's bound to be some agenda.

Exactly this is very worrisome!

And NO! i wouldn't agree to the capability part! Indians are as much capable as any other country. This has more to do with who is going to fund? In this case another country has funded, it is to be seen if this funding will be beneficial or a big burden on common man....

[deep_bang]

In India, we have the brightest of the minds, and yet, we have such weak infrastructure. The reason is corruption at every level.

If this train is going to be constructed/maintained by the Japs, then i am hoping there wont be any corruption, and people also will get to see a level of what trains should look like (most of us would only have seen them in movies). Then hopefully the people will also expect the same from the Railways - if not to the same level but atleast to a certain better level. The bar is not just in terms of speed but also other things like cleanliness, the way they maintain etc.

The japs are really good at making these. We should learn from them. Let this be that opportunity.

[SmartCat]

If one looks at this purely as a solution to commuting problems, then maybe it does not make that much sense. However, if you look at this project as a way of introducing an entirely new tech heavy industry into India, then it starts making lot of sense. Once more projects are awarded, foreign solution providers are likely to setup factories here in India and even export them.

For example, look what Bombardier is doing in India - they are selling Urban Transport (METRO) systems here and also exporting to other countries.

Bombardier to make India exports hub for passenger trains
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/51108914.cms

The company has a manufacturing facility in Savli, Gujarat that produces 450 commuter cars along with bogies and other components, which are also exported to markets like Australia, Brazil and Saudi Arabia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8JFmTPJpWc

With incentives and policy decisions, India can insist of technology transfer too. So advantage for Indian companies like Larsen & Toubro, BEML and BHEL. That's exactly how China managed to become an exporter of high speed rail solutions.

[wantarangerover]

Originally Posted by rrsteer

Can anyone make me understand what does the Japanese government/ economy gain by making this investment. Also will they get a share of revenues from the project?

As many replied, the loan will flow back to Japan, via Japanese companies. And such investments are not in isolation, this investment will most surely have links to partnerships in Defense, and assurances that Japanese companies will get more projects in India. Chinese aggression means Japan desperately need more allies in the area and India is a major part of that.

Originally Posted by Mission_PGPX

Been there and done that. Having lived in Japan and traveled in shinkansen, i can guarantee the ride quality (T-bhp terms) and luxury associated with bullet trains.

Having lived in Japan myself, I can also attest to the comfort, punctuality and luxury of the Shinkansen. The trains are not flashy, but very high quality and elegant.

Originally Posted by Mission_PGPX

One question really bothers me, having looked at the stopovers almost 60 kms apart, i wonder how will train gain the speed of 300 + km/hr with 750 passengers on board? It might run on those speeds for couple of minutes before it has to let go of throttle. I am sure planners have thought of this but some how 2 hrs total journey between ahmedabad and mumbai with these many stops sounds really questionable.

With 12 stops, it is touted to be 3 hours. With limited stops, it is 2 hrs. In Japan, there are three classes of the Shinkansen - the fastest with least stops, and the slowest will have most stops. Take your pick, as per your destination. The fares are same. Similar solution can be used for India. As you pointed out, the journey time greatly depends on number of stops, as the train has to start decelerating miles before the actual stop.

Originally Posted by Mission_PGPX

and then security of the tracks in a country like us is different ball game altogether? The tracks has to be elevated throughout or underground.

Yes, very good point. In Japan, the Shinkansen makes so much sense since it is very seamless - it is just like boarding a local train. There is no security check, not even a metal detector. You just buy the ticket and board. Takes all of 5 mins. The trains also run very frequently, so there is no waiting once you are on the platform. The whole point is that if the journey is less than 700 kms, the shinkansen is faster from A to B compared to flying. It has been such a success that most domestic airlines have discontinued short routes in Japan.

I am sure there will be a security check in Indian bullet trains, and that makes it a little less convenient. And there will be random checks and what not.

There is one more thing to point out here - In Japan, the bullet trains are augmented by normal railways, and metros. Once you get to a city in a bullet train, the same station will have local train lines or metros, which can be used to get to your final destination (The bullet trains run on top of these local lines). And you can use the same ticket since you are not exiting the gates. Very convenient. In India, that is not going to be the case, at least for now. You will get from A'bad to Mumbai in 2 hours, and then take a taxi to where you want to go, and get stuck in Mumbai traffic for 2 hrs! Hope that by then the Bullet train station will also house a Mumbai metro station as well.

[libranof1987]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

And NO! i wouldn't agree to the capability part! Indians are as much capable as any other country.

When I say we are not capable, I don't mean we lack the skill, aptitude or the ability to pull it off.

What I refer to is, the lack of political will, dilution of the purpose due to red-tapism, bureaucracy and of course, our favorite: corruption.

This has more to do with who is going to fund? In this case another country has funded, it is to be seen if this funding will be beneficial or a big burden on common man....

This, I agree. And did mention my reservations on the financial burden.

My objection is to the: "why bullet train when that money can be put somewhere else" argument. Japan is being so generous only because they can see some jobs out of it. Why would they dole out money just so we can upgrade our railway stations with facilities that the average Indian doesn't respect.

We've got to do everything parallely.

[benu9714]

Some interesting things about Japanese bullet trains:

1. If you buy a Japan Rail Pass you can travel unlimited times on bullet trains, except the fastest ones. Works out much cheaper than any other form of transport if you really want to see Japan, not just Tokyo.
2. You should get a reservation (at no extra cost) done just before you board the train. This will give you access to the (largely empty) reserved coaches which are avoided by Japanese commuters because they have to pay quite a bit extra to reserve a seat.
3. The conductor bows when (s)he enters, and leaves, the coach and also when asking for your ticket and returning it to you after checking.
4. Very nice bento boxes (Jap fast food) and drinks are served by (bowing) attendants.
5. Platforms have lines drawn to indicate exactly (to within inches) where you should stand to enter your coach.
6. Tokyo main station has five levels of train lines and platforms, and 56 exits.

[GrammarNazi]

All BIG talk.
Rs.1.2 Lakh Crore on this project is no doubt an unnecessary splurge.

I'm NOT against planned development, but please let us learn how ALL State & Central Governments push unnecessary civil projects just because it is one of the easier ways to siphon off money.

IIRC there was a committee that said all present railway tracks need to be maintained & modernised with major repairs. It'd cost 1Lakh crore, but IMO it'd be well worth the money as it'd benefit the lower middle class and also put out huge number of (much needed) jobs for the semi-skilled & unskilled sections.

How much would a simple 500km 4 lane Expressway cost? Surely less than 5k Crore. They could easily recover the cost even if such a road was exclusively for Volvo / Scania Buses & Road-Trains which did speeds of 120kmph.

I remember reading just in March that Gujarat State has been under huge debt. This is not healthy "leverage", but a really burdensome debt that the state is seriously soaring uncontrollably.
Article 1 : Hindu BusinessLine
Article 2 : Deccan Chronicle

Important to learn how we should discourage governments from adventurously taking huge loans!

[prasadee]

Skipping a whole generation of technology would have been a good option if Hyperloop was already implemented somewhere. While the country is going to spend (loan, but still needs to be paid back) Rs1L Cr on a project, why not go with the latest greatest.
In related news, Hyperloop has picked India as one of the top 10 possible routes. Lets see where this goes. A Bengaluru-Chennai Hyperloop in 23 minutes, or Mumbai-Chennai in an hour would be super awesome!
https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/14/1...st-us-india-uk

[extreme_torque]

I am sorry but in any other country this would be terrible idea because our mass railway infrastructure and the road infra is in shambles. Reminds me of an annecdote where flying from Delhi to Bangalore takes less time than travelling from Bangalore airport to the city. Now this is as obtuse as spending a huge amount on a faster ambulance that can take you to a hospital quick but there are no doctors.

[norhog]

Why is everyone so negative on this historic development?
When Maruti 800 was launched way back in the eighties, every one to then uncles having cars to mechanics said it will not last. It is too "weak" , suspension would break in the first pothole etc etc. Team members of that generation can recall this I am sure..

But now look how it revolutionized the car industry.

Next mobile phones, every one wrote it off as a show off product. If there was no proper land line connectivity, what is the use of mobiles. Again see how the communications infrastructure and connectivity changed people's lives.

This will I am very sure herald a new era in heavy industry and precision manufacturing , perfect operations and all the spin offs to IR and railway manufacturing and operations.. I am sure.
So members please celebrate it, not run it down with negativity.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by norhog

Why is everyone so negative on this historic development?

How is that related to bullet train? We can buy more cars not because Maruti came in, because we opened the economy and more and more people have the money to buy cars. A more meaninful metphor would be to compare the deaths caused by accidents then and now.

Originally Posted by norhog

Next mobile phones, every one wrote it off as a show off product.

No one wrote mobile phones off. Mobile phones were always desireable and they still are. The calls are a utility feature now and not a luxury. I am sure someone would have said the same thing about wired telephones. I dont see what is the relationship between the two. The only relation I can think of is that the same things were said by a BJP spokesman on a debate on national TV and you have said the same exact thing here.

[sandeepmohan]

Originally Posted by paragsachania

As per reports, there will be 12 intermediate stations.

I hope these stations are built based on actual need for a stop and not by some politician deciding to have one.

Curious to know who will own and run this as a project. In order to pull this off, we will need to operate at an efficiency level that the Japanese do and that is no easy task.

I did mention on another thread that we are wasting our money on this project. After reading a bit on this thread and the sector that this high speed train will serve, it does make sense. Possibly on a couple more sectors too.

If something like this is being built in India, it will have to be built to the same exacting standards as it is in Japan. That means a train running on the dot, all the time, top order maintenance and safety for the rolling stock and infrastructure, well designed and thought out train stations that are spotless clean. Will be a miracle if we pull this off.

[Sawyer]

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

That means a train running on the dot, all the time, top order maintenance and safety for the rolling stock and infrastructure, well designed and thought out train stations that are spotless clean. Will be a miracle if we pull this off.

I agree.

I subscribe to the belief that it is first necessary to lay a solid foundation, and then build the first floor and so on. Import a skyscraper minus all that, and it will fail/fall. All the more so when the public sector does it. Be it clean toilets or bullet trains.

Mobile phone services are not a good example - in fact they prove the point. First, that they succeeded in the vacuum created by public sector failures to provide wired phone services. Second, they succeeded because there was no public sector involvement there.

Finally, let us not buy into the spin that this is a gift or is free. There are no free lunches. The loan is denominated in JPYen, so will have to be paid in the deflating value of the rupee over 50 years; the repayments of Rs 80,000 crores will total to over ten times that amount in rupees over 50 years. Second, that amount contains a large amount of profit that will line the pockets of the Japanese companies involved in the construction that we will be paying in the final analysis, as part of the loan repayments.

Nothing wrong with that in itself, if the payment/profit is justified by returns to the country in terms of wealth creation in a way that percolates to the poorer parts and people of the country. It may be noted that in the last 20 years, India has achieved higher levels of income disparity between haves and have nots than anywhere else in the world, except perhaps Russia where the Russian oligarchs/mafia basically looted/grabbed all state assets after the collapse of communism in 1990.

The next generation of voters will be the ones to vote on the outcome.