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Old 22nd January 2023, 21:27   #46
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Re: Citroen eC3 Review

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Originally Posted by antz.bin View Post
Far too many compromises.

The eC3 battery is anyways going to degrade like anyone's business (similar to what is happening to the 1st gen Nissan Leafs around the world).
Since 2016 (gen 2) Nissan has been offering a 8 year/100,000 mile (1,60,000 km) battery warranty for Nissan Leaf. They also specify that battery capacity in the warranty period can't go below 9 out of 12 bars (77% capacity).

Citroen eC3 Review-screenshot-20230122-9.17.03-pm.png

https://www.nissanusa.com/content/da...ty-booklet.pdf

Nissan leaf uses NMC chemistry which is more vulnerable to high temperatures than LFP used in eC3. The eC3's battery should perform similar or better.

Considering everything known thus far, eC3 appears to be a very well engineered product with a potential to offer the best price-to-range ratio. If priced right it can be the Alto of EVs - accessible, efficient and reliable.
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Old 22nd January 2023, 23:39   #47
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Re: Citroen eC3 Review

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Originally Posted by Blackwing View Post
An excerpt from Arenaev.com's coverage of eC3 launch

"On the safety side Citroen is bringing just two airbags to the eC3. Rest of the safety and protection is in the hands of the driver and local wildlife. As we know, India is quite an interesting place to drive and demands a lot of attention from the driver, hence the lack of even the simplest radio in the entry Live trim can be considered a safety feature."

https://www.arenaev.com/allelectric_...-news-1319.php
Even TATA Nexon Tiago and Tigor has two airbags.
So cant understand what exactly the reviewer trying to convey.

Does local wildlife avoid TATA vehicles?
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Old 22nd January 2023, 23:41   #48
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Re: Citroen eC3 Review

I feel Tata will feel the heat with Citroen eC3 from one side and MnM XUV400 on the other side.

It will be sandwiched between the two and the two will certainly snatch decent bookings, affecting TATA overall sales.
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Old 23rd January 2023, 00:08   #49
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Re: Citroen eC3 Review

I think it’s a smart product. Will serve well as a beater car that works as a city runabout. Less electronics less stuff that will go haywire in 3 years..

The hassles of getting fast chargers installed and the consequential higher fixed billing cost further wipe out the gains of EVs with super fast charging. The cabling hassle, dept paperwork probably means most of time most people anyways use the charge overnight method.

In terms of size you cannot really compare it to the Tiago. So a well thought out pricing strategy and a serious urgent need to expand network are what Citroen and the eC3 need. I’d pick one and substitute the driver’s activa for errand running.

Last edited by vineshpikale : 23rd January 2023 at 00:09. Reason: Typo
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Old 23rd January 2023, 07:39   #50
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Re: Citroen eC3 Review

eC3 will get the job done for city commuters- who are looking for second car for parents / wife / errands running. Who doesnít need quick acceleration or hi-tech features.

This funky looking hatchback is going to give tough fight to Tata EV.
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Old 23rd January 2023, 09:57   #51
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Re: Citroen eC3 Review

Citroen eC3 EV bookings open in India

Citroen has started accepting bookings for its first all-electric offering in India, the eC3. The EV is available in two variants: Live and Feel, and can be ordered by paying a token amount of Rs. 25,000.

Citroen eC3 Review-2023citroenec302.jpg

The Citroen eC3 is the all-electric version of the C3 crossover. The EV looks identical to the ICE version. Even the front fascia has been carried over and does not feature a blanked-off grille like most EVs.

Inside, the eC3 gets a 3-spoke flat-bottom steering wheel and a 10.25-inch touchscreen infotainment system with wireless Apple CarPlay and Android Auto connectivity, height adjustable driver’s seat and over 35 connected car features.

The eC3 uses a 29.2 kWh battery pack, offering an ARAI-certified range of 320 km. It powers a front-mounted electric motor that develops 56 BHP and 143 Nm. The car can accelerate from 0-60 km/h in 6.8 seconds and has a top speed of 107 km/h.

The eC3 comes with a 3.3 kW onboard AC charger. It also supports fast charging and takes 57 minutes to charge from 10-80% using a DC fast charger.
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Old 23rd January 2023, 10:58   #52
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Re: Citroen eC3 Review

I firmly feel that every EV launched by any manufactured must be cheered by one and all.

I cannot fathom why us consumers who cheered for TIAGO EV some months back are calling out eC3 or even the Mahindra XUV400.

To each his own.

Each one will buy what he/she feels is right for his/her need.

I think as a nation we need to celebrate launch of each and every EV as it will help build a new ecosystem quickly. Competition will benefit customers as is evident by the Tata Motors price drop of Nexon EV.

More players more advancements more updates to products.
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Old 23rd January 2023, 13:32   #53
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Re: Citroen eC3 Review

Some points that need clarifications for the eC3:
  • The battery seems to have cooling vents on underside of the car. Is it dust/water proof? Does Citroen provide details for the water wading capability of the car? Most Tata EVs seem to have IP68 certified battery packs. Also, the open air vents at bottom can harbor rodents easily. Is there some metal mesh to prevent rodent damage?
  • Is there a provision to limit the charging rate of the car to limit the power from the 15A socket? This will help reduce loading on old wiring. There was a similar functionality available with Hyundai Kona.
  • There was a manual charging cable release mechanism in Nexon EV - anything of that sort present in the eC3?
Overall looks like a good city car if priced under 10Lac OTR. The power should be adequate considering speed is limited to 107kph and the motor is peppy at low speeds which is good for the purpose its intended for. I remember, the Nissan Micra diesel came with a ~65 bhp engine, but it was a good city car.

However they should have given following as part of standard equipment/in highest variant:
  • Electric adjustable ORVMS
  • Rear Wash/Wipe - The defogger can drain battery easily but rear washer/wiper should have been there.

Last edited by TT-S : 23rd January 2023 at 13:51. Reason: Corrected grammar
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Old 23rd January 2023, 15:03   #54
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Re: Citroen eC3 Review

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Originally Posted by srikanth.vemuri View Post
Nissan Leaf has become notorious for it battery degradation rates, in contrast to the rest of the liquid cooled batteries the competition came with. Part of the reason why the Leaf doesn't dominate the EV market as a successful pioneer should.
Source required. For example this comparison puts Leaf 2019 in the middle of the pack, better than Tesla Model S 2019, at 0.8% in year 1.

Nissan Leaf uses cooled air from the AC system, as I understand. I don't know about eC3 but if the battery is not being overheated by fast charge/discharge (which they are limiting by charge speed and motor power) there's no reason air cooling wouldn't work.
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Old 23rd January 2023, 15:13   #55
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Re: Citroen eC3 Review

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Originally Posted by TT-S View Post
[*]Is there a provision to limit the charging rate of the car to limit the power from the 15A socket? This will help reduce loading on old wiring. There was a similar functionality available with Hyundai Kona.
You have to do new wiring from meter to the charger with the high quality and proper guage Electric 3 core copper cable. And even the sockets and plugs have to be Industrial grade.

Normal 15A wire electrical sockets and plugs will overheat with the continuous peak current demand during charging.

Thats my opinion.
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Citroen eC3 Review-img20221005wa0006.jpg  

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Old 23rd January 2023, 16:29   #56
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Re: Citroen eC3 Review

Citroen eC3 pre-bookings open now


Last edited by Venkatesh : 23rd January 2023 at 16:31.
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Old 23rd January 2023, 16:57   #57
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Re: Citroen eC3 Review

I read the above posts and the posts countering my criticisms and thought about it again.

Citroen eC3 is not a Tiago EV / Tigor EV / Nexon EV competitor. It cannot compete on features or power.

It could have been competing with DZire CNG (for commercial usage) but Citroen alienated that audience as well by offering worse warranty terms.

The only takers for cars like E-Verito was the commercial segment. They could live with the drawbacks since they cared about the benefits (running costs) so much. The only way this is practically better than an E-Verito is that it does a better range on a single charge.

This could have been an ideal cab. Good boot space vs the CNG competition, smooth running, DC Fast charging, economical in the city, low maintenance, basic safety, available in lower trims with less stuff that can break. Anything a cabbie could hope for, it is offered by the eC3. But then they choose to throw a spanner in the works by downgrading the warranty. Some cab operators may still take the risk but most will stick to the safe choice of a Maruti/Hyundai CNG.

Its only a matter of time before Tata launches the Altroz and Punch EVs. Where will the eC3 hide when those 2 are out? If Tata can launch the higher trims, they can very well launch the lower XE/ XM Trims of Tiago / Tigor / Nexon EVs and lower prices if the market shows enough demand for this air cooled relic.

The eC3 could has to do EVERYTHING right including (but not limited to):
1. not overheating
2. not bursting into flames
3. Charge on DC fast chargers without excessive thermal throttling
4. Have long term battery degradation at par with liquid cooled competition

I had thought it would be a cold day in hell before Tata Motors would be leading the technological innovations in the Indian car market which a European company would need to cost cut to compete with, but that day has come sooner than I expected.

Anyways, I will wish it all the luck in the market. But I cannot, in good conscience, recommend it to anyone over anything else available in the market. Not without first looking at the price and re-evaluating my stance.

Over and out.
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Old 23rd January 2023, 17:03   #58
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Re: Citroen eC3 Review

Electric car aggregators like BluSmart are getting popular by the day in Delhi NCR. Not only is the fleet far more refined than the hordes of ill maintained budget Marutis and Hyundais (EVs, so obviously), it is newer. More importantly, fares are cheaper. Usually by a good 20-25%.

Citroen eC3 is an ideal candidate for a small urban cab, in a very WagonR kind of way. They need to tie up with such an aggregator. They have a huge advantage over the Tiago EV - a proper usable boot.
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Old 24th January 2023, 03:34   #59
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Re: Citroen eC3 Review. Nissan 2010 Leaf battery saga

Nissan's 2010 Leaf battery was 24KWH and weighed 294Kg because energy density was low. It suffered high battery degradation and was replaced by a new 24KWH battery around 2014, with better cell chemistry and a BMS tuned better for air cooling. Nissan has not had a major issue with battery degradation on these replacement 24KWH batteries despite lack of liquid cooling.

(For reasons that probably even Nissan cannot explain, they switched to another battery config with poor cell chemistry and high power rate spec for the later battery packs (40KWH, iirc). Of course, those packs again had degradation problems.)

The main thing to understand: There are several versions of Nissan air-cooled battery packs and not all of them suffered bad degradation. The battery degradation was due to a combination of factors, not just air cooling:

1. Cell chemistry - The 2010 Leaf came with a Gen1 Li-ion battery. 12 years on, EV batteries are far superior. Even NMC Li-ion batteries today have much lower battery degradation compared to 2010 gen1 cells. Citroen eC3 has gone a step better, as it uses LFP batteries designed for resistance to thermal degradation. These have a higher operating temperature range and donít suffer from thermal runaway like NMC Li-ion cells.

2. Thermal management - basically no extra cooling/ thermal management designed into the 2010 Leaf battery! It was just the ordinary surface of the battery cover that was also supposed to provide cooling. The EC3 battery pack seems well designed with space and fin/slot like structures to speed up heat transfer to the airflow. If the underfloor protection plate is metal, it is also acting as an additional heat spreader and transfer heat to air flowing above and below it.

3. Battery capacity/range - the low range meant that Leaf owners charged it up to 100% almost every time, and fleet/taxi Leafs often charged it 3 times a day, leading to accelerated degradation. The eC3 has a practical range of 230-240km. In typical city commutes, hardly 20% will get used up on an everyday basis. The car is not likely to be recharged from scratch every day (except by fleet owners). And eC3's LFP batteries also have a much longer battery life in terms of number of charge cycles.

4. BMS configuration - Original Leaf BMS lacked proper cell balancing. This is evident from repairs carried out on the battery packs - many 2010 Nissan Leaf owners got battery packs refurbished outside, and found that only a few cells or one module had gone bad. On the EC3, the 100% DC charging claim indicates the BMS is set to very conservative profile to avoid heat issues.

5. Power/current ratings - Despite lack of thermal management, that Leaf battery was specified at a peak power discharge rate of 90 KW. That is 120 bhp! Citroen has set up the 29KWH battery pack (larger than original Leaf) at peak power rates less than half of the Leaf. Just 57 bhp vs Leafís 120 bhp.

With EV battery technology currently in mass production, liquid cooling is needed when you need high power ratings and long battery life. But, if you can limit power, it is entirely possible to design a modern battery pack with only air cooling and still avoid serious battery degradation issues. It needs engineering to balance all the 5 factors listed above. Looks like thatís exactly what Citroen has done. So, do not assume that the eC3 will come anywhere close to Leafís battery problems.
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Old 24th January 2023, 15:43   #60
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Re: Citroen eC3 Review. Nissan 2010 Leaf battery saga

As this car uses a LFP blade battery, it has a high heat tolerance and so liquid cooling might not be required.
Nissan leaf used Lithium ion cells which was prone to degradation with increase in temperature.

Citroen would have done numerous test in different temperature and driving conditions to come out with air cooling decision.
This also helps them in reducing cost and weight.

Last edited by pram_ind : 24th January 2023 at 15:46.
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