[On4Wheels]

A very balanced review! With the other model viz., C3, C5 Aircross, it is clear that Citroen is setting the basics right. What they are lacking is the bells and whistles and unfortunately, there is a bias towards these goods to have (I am not sure) features rather than the fundamental aspects of the cars. This may be reason for the poor numbers, combined with its very tiny dealership network.

The EVs in present market cannot serve as a primary car and it is envisaged (or limited to) to suit for a short daily commutes to workplace or within city. Considering this, I find that the Citroen has done good job here. I find the discussions on cooling of battery is Bayesian in nature and hence, it will remain speculative till we get the real data. Comparing two different vehicle based on the battery chemistry may not be correct as it is just the source of heat generation and the knowledge of thermal design of battery is needed to comment on its heat dissipation capacity. Suppose, if the natural cooling (as Citroen says) is sufficient to keep the battery with the threshold temperature limits, it improves the reliability of the car because it does not require an additional active system to cool the battery. Additionally, as mentioned in the Team-BHP (Citroen eC3 Review) review,

Originally Posted by Omkar

Citroen claims that the eC3 can be charged with DC fast chargers multiple times without causing any harm to the battery.

I guess, Citroen is confident about the natural cooling of the battery. The heat dissipation during the fast charging decides the adequacy of the natural cooling as the vehicle is stationary and the heat transfer coefficient under stationary condition is less compared to the running condition. Also, the plant is located in Chennai where the ambient temperature is ranging from 30 to 42 °C, I guess, the battery is tested at the the right conditions.

Also, from the very limited ownership reviews available on Team-BHP, I could not find any serious issues with their cars about its reliability. If the car delivers what is promised, we will see many happy customers soon. Nonetheless, it brings the competition to the market where customer is definitely benefited.

[Tarrodie]

I happened to pass by a Citroen showroom and dropped in to enquire about their electric car launch and details.

The sales person 'confirmed' that it is launching at a price of Rs 12.5 lakhs ex-showroom. He said this had been conveyed by the company to the dealers and there were no more details.

I think this might be the price of the higher among probably 2 variants because if it is the starting price it will be considered high. Anyway we will get to know in a few days as the company is supposed to start deliveries of the eC3 in February.

[guptad42]

Originally Posted by Tarrodie

I happened to pass by a Citroen showroom and dropped in to enquire about their electric car launch and details.

The sales person 'confirmed' that it is launching at a price of Rs 12.5 lakhs ex-showroom. He said this had been conveyed by the company to the dealers and there were no more details.

I think this might be the price of the higher among probably 2 variants because if it is the starting price it will be considered high. Anyway we will get to know in a few days as the company is supposed to start deliveries of the eC3 in February.

Looks too expensive. Yes it has more battery, but the eC3 base Live model cannot be more than 9.5-9.9L, given the 8.49L starting price of tiago. And the feature difference between Live and base is approx 90K. Which puts the upper model in max 10.5-10.9L range.

Given Citroen's lack of brand image and the strong EV reputation of Tata Motors, I doubt ec3 can sell in large enough numbers to justify plant investments at the top end of this range. It's more likely to be 9.5L max for base Live and 10.5L max for Feel.

Even at this price you still have to pay more to add options to get eC3 closer to tiago specs. e.g. alloy wheels are 30-35K extra for ec3.

Frankly, eC3 will need more aggressive pricing to establish a base in India, as the car does not have aspirational feel. Citroen can raise prices later once they have market momentum.

[Tarrodie]

To add to my last post, I did spend a little bit of time at this particular showroom to satisfy my curiosity about Citroen cars, other than enquiring about the electric car. Actually I asked the question towards the end of my visit, after checking out their naturally aspirated model(they did not have the turbo variant for test drives). They were aggressively pushing the non-turbo variant, I presume to clear existing stocks including leftovers from 2022.

The figure of Rs 12.5 lakhs was only given by a salesperson there. It is possible that a higher figure is being given out so that present visitors to their showroom opt for the cheaper non-turbo variant, and then it makes it easier for them to clear their stock. It was a weekend and the showroom was empty when I dropped in.

It could even be part of the company's strategy to portray a higher pricing now and then reduce it when they actually announce the pricing. Nothing can be said for sure until the figures are officially announced by the company through a press release.

[Jekyl87]

Originally Posted by guptad42

Even at this price you still have to pay more to add options to get eC3 closer to tiago specs. e.g. alloy wheels are 30-35K extra for ec3

While I wholeheartedly agree with you on the entire pricing bit, just wanted to call out that Tiago ev does not have alloy wheels. It has several other features missing in eC3, but not alloys. Top variantd have what Tata calls 'Hyper Style', but they are just very good looking (imo) wheel covers.

[guptad42]

Originally Posted by Jekyl87

While I wholeheartedly agree with you on the entire pricing bit, just wanted to call out that Tiago ev does not have alloy wheels. It has several other features missing in eC3, but not alloys. Top variantd have what Tata calls 'Hyper Style', but they are just very good looking (imo) wheel covers.

Thank you for correcting this. I thought the top model tiago had alloys, but they are the "hyper style" covers indeed.

One way that eC3 can go up in price (and one up on the tiago) is by adding adaptive cruise control, AEB and ADAS level 2. 'High Tech Safety' sort of positioning. That will be quite something. I don't think it is happening, otherwise they would have announced it with fanfare.

So, the tiago puts Citroen in a situation where eC3 needs aggressive pricing to make sense to enough buyers. For example, Feel model at 9.99L for first 10,000 bookings, and hope the buyers consider the slower performance and missing premium feel an acceptable trade-off for more range at good price. Pricing can rise to 10.49L after initial 10K bookings. That should help sell around 6 month's production and hope the feedback from these buyers generates good word of mouth to generate more sales.

[WRXXX]

Air cooled battery? No matter how many times I think about it, is not sounding right. I am not worried that much about the performance figures, but longevity of the battery and consistency in the vehicle driving range is far more important first.
Also, when the vehicle can be charged in under 57 minutes it would draw nearly 30kw of DC fast charge power and that will create heat when it is standing without much air flowing in summer hot months. Another worry is uneven battery degradation when the pack is not liquid or even HVAC cooled like in Verito/Aptera. uneven degradation means a single or a bunch cells can render a battery pack unusable in low levels of SoC %, due to their series connection. An Active and powerful cell balancer has to be at work to overcome this problem and can only do so much to uneven battery ageing.

[guptad42]

Originally Posted by WRXXX

Also, when the vehicle can be charged in under 57 minutes it would draw nearly 30kw of DC fast charge power and that will create heat when it is standing without much air flowing in summer hot months..

Just to correct the charging view- the 57min time is quoted for 10 to 80% charge. That's 70% of the battery in about an hour. Comes to 20KW charging rate, not 30KW. In other words, eC3 charging rate is 0.7C. LFP cells do not normally have a heat problem at that charge rate. LFP batteries have long been used at higher charge rates like 1C in stationary storage applications with only ambient air for cooling.

I agree that real issues will be known only after using it for a while in hot climate. Any manufacturing quality defects will show up, like they did in LG Chem's batteries for the Bolt. Citroen standard battery warranty is a bit weak here. To provide the confidence to buyers, Citroen should offer a no questions asked replacement warranty if battery degrades more than 20% of original capacity in 8 years.

Even a full charge of 0 to 100% every second day comes to less than 1,500 cycles in 8 years. So, it should be well within SVolt's spec, as the cells have a life of 3,000 cycles or more. (Full charge every second day means running about 365,000km in 8 years, assuming 250km per charge real range. So, hardly any private car owner will reach even this number.)

[WRXXX]

Originally Posted by guptad42

Just to correct the charging view- the 57min time is quoted for 10 to 80% charge. That's 70% of the battery in about an hour. Comes to 20KW charging rate, not 30KW. In other words, eC3 charging rate is 0.7C. LFP cells do not normally have a heat problem at that charge rate. LFP batteries have long been used at higher charge rates like 1C in stationary storage applications with only ambient air for cooling.

Yes, sir, thanks for correcting the figures. I was aware of this but still posted 30kw keeping the max input power possible barring vague press release statements and "*" at 10-80% times. I remember my car showing high battery temp symbol at 15kw charging when the AC gas was low, and this is in Bangalore evenings and ambient temp was around 27-28deg that day.

I agree about the life and assurance Svolt has given will exceed the warranty terms, but stationary power usage example cannot be taken for reference unless it is an off grid example. With transport the battery in extreme cases goes through complete charge and discharge cycle and my worry is not about whether the battery survives, but it is about uneven ageing and degradation causing the cell pack to shutdown at lower SoC %. This is exactly what is happening in my Verito right now. Sometimes even balancing and boosting the cells of no use at that point and pack will simply loose 20-25% usable capacity due to uneven degradation issue.

But, yes totally agree and hope that their gamble infact is worth it and only time will tell.

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by guptad42

Even a full charge of 0 to 100% every second day comes to less than 1,500 cycles in 8 years. So, it should be well within SVolt's spec, as the cells have a life of 3,000 cycles or more. (Full charge every second day means running about 365,000km in 8 years, assuming 250km per charge real range. So, hardly any private car owner will reach even this number.)

I found this vehicle being tested a few months ago and spoke to the test driver, I think he is a contractor of some sort. They are testing it from a 20-80% charge cycle, the range is around 200 Kms on highway. They were not allowed to turn on the AC during charging.

[guptad42]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

I found this vehicle being tested a few months ago and spoke to the test driver, I think he is a contractor of some sort. They are testing it from a 20-80% charge cycle, the range is around 200 Kms on highway. They were not allowed to turn on the AC during charging.

Looks like a max range test. So, no AC makes sense, Still, that range number of 200km is surprisingly high for only 60% of the battery being used.

Comes to hardly 90 Whr per km. Meets and slightly exceeds the theoretical ARAI 320km range. I am guessing it was done on very flat road and very steady, slow speeds like 40-50kmph. Even at such speeds, it will be astonishing if the eC3 can get that sort of range on real roads. Only possible if the entire drivetrain is designed for exceptionally low losses.

[WRXXX]

Originally Posted by guptad42

Looks like a max range test. So, no AC makes sense, Still, that range number of 200km is surprisingly high for only 60% of the battery being used.

Comes to hardly 90 Whr per km. Meets and slightly exceeds the theoretical ARAI 320km range. I am guessing it was done on very flat road and very steady, slow speeds like 40-50kmph. Even at such speeds, it will be astonishing if the eC3 can get that sort of range on real roads. Only possible if the entire drivetrain is designed for exceptionally low losses.

You are right sir, it is the speed, check this gentleman's experiments with Nexon and achieving a real world range equivalent of 400km (98 wh/km) when doing 60 steady speeds in cruise control. If Nexon achieves it eC3 also can and there was some non confirmed info that drivetrain is from BYD (but can't be verified or confirmed yet). If it is BYD then I totally understand since I managed to get 120 wh/km easily on E6 that weights 1900+ kgs Kerb.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzrec_mxjd4

For those who don't want to see the video Nexon EV max range variation with the speed: (Aero and speed both affect the range).

Speed | Range
-------------------
90 km/hr | 221 kms
100 km/hr | 213 kms
120 km/hr | 155 kms
80 km/hr | 280 kms
60 km/hr | 400 kms

[WRXXX]

Originally Posted by guptad42

Looks like a max range test. So, no AC makes sense, Still, that range number of 200km is surprisingly high for only 60% of the battery being used.

Originally Posted by kosfactor

They were not allowed to turn on the AC during charging.

I think the AC restriction was quoted for the "charging session" and that is new right, never heard anyone doing that!

[guptad42]

Originally Posted by WRXXX

I think the AC restriction was quoted for the "charging session" and that is new right, never heard anyone doing that!

Could be a total power/ current restriction due to the air-cooled battery design.

If this behaviour is needed on production cars, I hope it is implemented in hardware/ controller software to cut off the AC during charging. Should not be left to individual user compliance.

[WRXXX]

Originally Posted by guptad42

Could be a total power/ current restriction due to the air-cooled battery design.

If this behaviour is needed on production cars, I hope it is implemented in hardware/ controller software to cut off the AC during charging. Should not be left to individual user compliance.

Absolutely and why cheap out on the HVAC cooled or liquid cooling stuff. According to me in the long run you are not going to gain much especially when establishing your brand. Yes, they need to do auto cutoff if this is the case. Weird thing is that given our charging Infra, I thought car is the comfortable place to wait and finish your other work while charging but, Citroën has other plans looks like. These compromises will work reverse according to me. If it is a pure City car then fine, but looking at its shape and size it will be used for more than as a City car alone.