[R2D2]

Originally Posted by ajay_satpute

Very well said R2D2. Thanks(There should have been Thanks button here). I think the MLC's and their prices have only added to confusion and given a new dimension to a confused new buyer's decision making process.

Thanks Ajay

As for MLC v/s DX - this is the way I see it. If one or more of these conditions are met then it is better to go for a MLC:

a) You are a beginner i.e building a kit from scratch or even upgrading from a PnS - you want something that gives good/great IQ, is light weight and very portable, and has the flexibility of a 'system' camera.
a) Your type of photography will not require faster AF, higher MP, wider variety of lenses/flashes/accessories made by the OEM and 3rd parties.
c) Lower budget - how much is the question. I'd say most MLC customers will stick below Rs 40K for a kit.

And I do not count SLTs as MLCs. They still do have a mirror but fixed. So keep them aside.

I am NOT saying that MLCs are inexpensive. Do forget the likes of Leica which is out of reach for most. The Fuji XE1 and X Pro 1 are the most expensive and that is followed by the Panny GH3 & Oly OM-D. You can get a DSLR kit and probably more for the price of one of these MLC camera kits. Such folks could probably look at the PEN series or equivalent from Panasonic.

PS - I purchased my Oly lenses from Camshot. Decent place..but Oly's attitude is a another thing. I have shared my thoughts in multiple posts in the EVIL cameras thread.

[joslicx]

Originally Posted by R2D2

Thanks Ajay

As for MLC v/s DX - this is the way I see it. If one or more of these conditions are met then it is better to go for a MLC:

a) You are a beginner i.e building a kit from scratch or even upgrading from a PnS - you want something that gives good/great IQ, is light weight and very portable, and has the flexibility of a 'system' camera.
a) Your type of photography will not require faster AF, higher MP, wider variety of lenses/flashes/accessories made by the OEM and 3rd parties.
c) Lower budget - how much is the question. I'd say most MLC customers will stick below Rs 40K for a kit.

R2D2 I actually think the entry level DSLRs are a better bet for someone new than the entry level mirrorless. The cheaper MLCs do not have view finders which I think is quite integral to photography. Framing your shot thru the screen is distracting for me. Also the sensors in DSLRs are better in that space. Its the Rs. 20-40k space.

On the other hand, the likes of OM-D EM-5, Pro X1S, Nex-6/7 etc are quite decent alternative (or even better alternative) in the advanced consumer space agaisnt the likes of D7000/60D etc. EM-5 has 5-axis IS, touch screen with touch to focus capability, ultra fast auto focus etc which the D7000 lacks. For me, in the Rs. 50-80k space MLCs are simply better alternatives to DSLRs (of course this is for first time buyer having no lenses). For someone upgrading from entry level to prosumer DSLR this argument is not valid.

PS - I purchased my Oly lenses from Camshot. Decent place..but Oly's attitude is a another thing. I have shared my thoughts in multiple posts in the EVIL cameras thread.

I also bought my 45mm from them. They promised delivery in 2 days but it took about 10 days and on the last day I was about to cancel the order when they confirmed it. Actually the 45mm has been very well received lens and it is frequently in short supply. Thats reported in many m4/3 forums.

By the way, how much did you pay for 75mm?

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by joslicx

R2D2 I actually think the entry level DSLRs are a better bet for someone new than the entry level mirrorless. The cheaper MLCs do not have view finders which I think is quite integral to photography. Framing your shot thru the screen is distracting for me. Also the sensors in DSLRs are better in that space. Its the Rs. 20-40k space.?

Agreed partly...but do think about this. Folks upgrading from PNSes are already used to framing photos using the display not a VF.

Fact of the matter is larger the sensor the better. So beginner DSLR sensors are better than beginner EVIL sensors. But then are these people looking at quality or pixel peeping? I don't think so. The EVIL would almost always be better than a normal 10MP PNS. I am not considering high end PNSes here like the Canon S95/S100, Sony RX100..forget the RX1.

Originally Posted by joslicx

On the other hand, the likes of OM-D EM-5, Pro X1S, Nex-6/7 etc are quite decent alternative (or even better alternative) in the advanced consumer space agaisnt the likes of D7000/60D etc. EM-5 has 5-axis IS, touch screen with touch to focus capability, ultra fast auto focus etc which the D7000 lacks. For me, in the Rs. 50-80k space MLCs are simply better alternatives to DSLRs (of course this is for first time buyer having no lenses). For someone upgrading from entry level to prosumer DSLR this argument is not valid.?

Yes you are right a high end MLC may be...note the may be better than a DX DSLR like the D5200 or D7000. I haven't played with both to actually discern the difference. But I think AF would be as fast (if not faster) in the DX. The thing is I went straight from film to FX DSLRs so whether I like it or not every time I use the Oly my mind does a sub-conscious or sometimes even deliberate comparision to the Nikons - not fair I know but it does happen.

Originally Posted by joslicx

I also bought my 45mm from them. They promised delivery in 2 days but it took about 10 days and on the last day I was about to cancel the order when they confirmed it. Actually the 45mm has been very well received lens and it is frequently in short supply. Thats reported in many m4/3 forums

And that my dear joslicx is what really bothers me about Oly. They are just TOOOOO casual! Please don't blame Camshot entirely. I have seen it with my own eyes when the Camshot employee literally pleaded with the Oly fellow at the other end of the line to give the prices and delivery date. The Oly person gave the info when the Camshot employee said that the customer (me) is standing in front demanding a quote/date.

And he also mentioned this is always how it is when dealing with Olympus and to an extent Panasonic. Not good..not good at all. I cannot help but compare even this 'attitude problem' to the way Canikon behave. They couldn't be more different.

The 75mm 1.8 was Rs 49K (MSRP 57K). It is quoted on their website. And he wasn't willing to drop it further. But worth it IMO. It is $899 @ B&H, (INR 49,445) the same price. Why in the world will I buy from the US when I get these prices right here at home?

PS - Lead time from booking to date of delivery was 6 days. Promised delivery date? 2 days after booking. :( Rubbish!

[joslicx]

Originally Posted by R2D2

And that my dear joslicx is what really bothers me about Oly. They are just TOOOOO casual! Please don't blame Camshot entirely. I have seen it with my own eyes when the Camshot employee literally pleaded with the Oly fellow at the other end of the line to give the prices and delivery date. The Oly person gave the info when the Camshot employee said that the customer (me) is standing in front demanding a quote/date.

And he also mentioned this is always how it is when dealing with Olympus and to an extent Panasonic. Not good..not good at all. I cannot help but compare even this 'attitude problem' to the way Canikon behave. They couldn't be more different.

The 75mm 1.8 was Rs 49K (MSRP 57K). It is quoted on their website. And he wasn't willing to drop it further. But worth it IMO. It is $899 @ B&H, (INR 49,445) the same price. Why in the world will I buy from the US when I get these prices right here at home?

PS - Lead time from booking to date of delivery was 6 days. Promised delivery date? 2 days after booking. :( Rubbish!

You wont believe it but lot of people on some forums have complained about same stuff about Nikon also (I think Thom has also written about that)! When D7000 was launched people often had to wait 2-3 months before it was made available. It was simply not in supply for months. One just has to live with these things. Nikon D7000 has that oil on sensor issue and to date Nikon has refused to even acknowledge that. You can find lot of angry souls on DPreview forums berating Nikon about that.

Olympus, at least in serious camera space, is pretty small in India. Hardly anybody knows them. When people see my camera, the first question they ask is why I didnt buy a DSLR! With such small market here its not unusual to have some supply problems (I think the buying experience is at least better than my VW . Bottomline is, the product is damn good and in the end that matters.

PS: Actually I dont blame Camshot at all (although they could improve on their communication). They are pretty good in all other aspects and I would actually recommend them to anyone looking for camera gear at reasonable prices in India.

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by joslicx

You wont believe it but lot of people on some forums have complained about same stuff about Nikon also (I think Thom has also written about that)! When D7000 was launched people often had to wait 2-3 months before it was made available. It was simply not in supply for months. One just has to live with these things. Nikon D7000 has that oil on sensor issue and to date Nikon has refused to even acknowledge that. You can find lot of angry souls on DPreview forums berating Nikon about that.

Olympus, at least in serious camera space, is pretty small in India. Hardly anybody knows them. When people see my camera, the first question they ask is why I didnt buy a DSLR! With such small market here its not unusual to have some supply problems (I think the buying experience is at least better than my VW . Bottomline is, the product is damn good and in the end that matters.

PS: Actually I dont blame Camshot at all (although they could improve on their communication). They are pretty good in all other aspects and I would actually recommend them to anyone looking for camera gear at reasonable prices in India.

Oh Nikon is no angel and that's certainly not what I am saying.they have had far too many QC issues with the D800 and now the D600. Not good either. And they have also changed their policies in the US whereby a 3rd party repair station will not get spares. So your only choice is to send it in to Nikon and they slap you with a hefty bill. And guess what? They try and duck the warranty by saying 'impact damage'. It is more or less the same for Canon. Both these manufacturers stand tall in the Jap photo/imaging industry and DO take customers for granted. All said and done these guys are under pressure to sell and they are v responsive to customer purchase queries and fulfilling orders.

My experience with Oly is worrisome because of 2 reasons:

a) They had the lenses in stock but were too lazy to get off their collective backsides and provide a price/del date to me.

On the 6th day I called Camshot's owner Mr Vaidya to ask what's going on about my order and was on the verge of cancelling it. I finally got a confirmation there that the lenses were here and I could collect them.

b)A small loss making camera company would go the extra mile to sell and be more responsive than other larger and more prominent Cos to ensure customer satisfaction. I haven't experienced this so far

As for good products being the only thing that matters and the rest will sort itself out. Well, not really. A case in point is Fiat India.

The OM-D has its own set of QC bugs. Here's a minor one that came in today:

http://www.43rumors.com/serial-numbe...efect-cameras/


BTW I checked my camera just in case and it doesnt have the issue.

Oly has taken the right steps with the OM-D and other cameras like the E-PL5. But it needs to improve in other areas as well including attitude, clearing negative perceptions and setting up a good sales and service network in this country. So then we won't get to hear 'Why did you buy an Oly?" or "Olympus? Whaddat?" I have already mentioned many of these things in the EVIL cameras thread so don't want to repeat em here.

PS - Also advised camshot to be more proactive with customer communications. I wasn't getting responses to my emails coz Oly wasn't responding. But that's no excuse for a zero response from the dealer.

[nilanjanray]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

No Low pass filter!
I guess the Fashion photographers will give this one a pass. But for landscapers and wildlife - Wooooo Hoooooo!

Almost there - f8 centre focusing, 51 pts af (similar to D4's) with 15 cross sensors, 1.3x further cropping mode for further reach etc . But not quite what I was looking for. Biggest issue for wildlife: the buffer when shooting RAW. Will last 1-1.5 secs in continuous high shooting mode.

I do hope that the absence of great buffer, lack of state of the art metering and lack of AF-ON button - not to mention the pricing gap b/w this and D600 and related mentions about amateur/middle class - mean that a D400 will be launched in the future.

Here's my decision tree:
1. D400 releases: go for it. Along with 70-200 f4 + 2x tc.
2. D400 doesn't release, 7D Mk2 releases with rumoured features- move to Canon, sell all Nikon gear and buy the 100-400L.
3. D400 and 7D Mk2 don't get launched- buy the D7100. Especially if Nikon revamps the 80-400mm. Else buy the 70-200 with 2x tc.

Even if I can bear to spend money on the 70-200 f2.8, I am not sure that it makes sense for my kind of use with handholding/ mobility preference. f4 should be worth the 1 stop + dof + bokeh compromise: much cheaper lens, light weight, more advanced vr and equal or greater sharpness.

As long I get a camera that autofocuses with f8.

[Behemoth]

The Nikon D7100 is out now. Looks like an interesting proposition for DX-Format, with 24 Mp and 51 focus points.
The detailed news and specs are available on :
http://www.nikon.com/news/2013/0221_dslr_01.htm
http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d7100/index.htm
http://www.nikon.co.in/en_IN/product...oryID=gp11zkyo

My guess is that they would price it in the range of 80-82K with 18-105 lens.

Regards,
Behemoth

[SPARKled]

Nikon has intentionally crippled the D7100 especially the buffer and avoiding the dual expeed processor to up the FPS from a not so great 6 to say 8 or whereabouts. Even the mid size body with lesser direct buttons and more polycarbonate than magnesium alloy construction is a very mid level, advanced enthusiast, non professional body. The rumored 7D atleast on paper seems to much better so IMHO this is a clear indicator of a D400 launch soon. Canon MD has already confirmed the work on a 7D mk2 so its impossible that there would be no D400 with 7D rivalling specs coz the D7100 is anything but that.

Also about the ongoing discussions about the prices in India vs those at USA, all my kit lenses and accessories were bought in USA, but my latest acquisition, the D800E has been sourced from India with a 2 year Nikon India warranty at a price lesser than any major US retailer such as Amazon, B&H or Adorama. From my experience its possible to get a very good price from Indian dealers especially for the more popular cameras and bodies if you pitch them against each other. Hard to find stuff is better sourced from the US such as Panasonic lenses, tripod heads etc.

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by nilanjanray

Here's my decision tree:
1. D400 releases: go for it. Along with 70-200 f4 + 2x tc.
2. D400 doesn't release, 7D Mk2 releases with rumoured features- move to Canon, sell all Nikon gear and buy the 100-400L.
3. D400 and 7D Mk2 don't get launched- buy the D7100. Especially if Nikon revamps the 80-400mm. Else buy the 70-200 with 2x tc..

That's a pretty sensible tree. Hope Nikon releases the D400 this year. Current situation with DSLR pricing segments points to an imminent release.

Originally Posted by nilanjanray

Even if I can bear to spend money on the 70-200 f2.8, I am not sure that it makes sense for my kind of use with handholding/ mobility preference. f4 should be worth the 1 stop + dof + bokeh compromise: much cheaper lens, light weight, more advanced vr and equal or greater sharpness. As long I get a camera that autofocuses with f8.

From what I have read the 70-200 F/4 is just as good IQ wise as the far more expensive 2.8 version. But do remember with a TC 2.0 @ F8 you will only have the centre focus point available. Tracking of BIF or fast moving mammals may become and issue and you will need to pan accordingly.

Originally Posted by SPARKled

Canon MD has already confirmed the work on a 7D mk2 so its impossible that there would be no D400 with 7D rivalling specs coz the D7100 is anything but that..

+1

If Canon releases the 7D Mk2 you can be 100% sure that a D400 or equivalent body is around the corner. For all we know it may be released even before the 7D Mk2.

Originally Posted by SPARKled

Also about the ongoing discussions about the prices in India vs those at USA, all my kit lenses and accessories were bought in USA, but my latest acquisition, the D800E has been sourced from India with a 2 year Nikon India warranty at a price lesser than any major US retailer such as Amazon, B&H or Adorama. From my experience its possible to get a very good price from Indian dealers especially for the more popular cameras and bodies if you pitch them against each other. .

+1

Don't bother buying a body abroad. Not worth it. You don't get a warranty and the prices in India are competitive. Once upon a time I never thought this would happen. But it has!

Originally Posted by SPARKled

Hard to find stuff is better sourced from the US such as Panasonic lenses, tripod heads etc.

True.

A substantial portion of my support kit (especially the RRS heads/plates, Wimberley head/plates) was ordered from the manufacturer's site in the US. Wimberley has a distributor in India but his prices are a rip off.

However buying tripods from the US can get expensive due to shipping costs + customs duties. Better to buy them here unless you have someone who can carry them from the US.

[joslicx]

Originally Posted by Behemoth

My guess is that they would price it in the range of 80-82K with 18-105 lens.

If they price it at 80k then where does that leave D400?

I think it will be around 70k (in line with 15% cut compared to D7000). Then the D400 can be introduced at around 85-90k keeping a healthy distance from the D600 (1.2L).

[R2D2]

As mentioned before Nikon has different pricing policies for each country.

Nikon India has announced D7100 prices today as follows. Pretty expensive!!!

94,950 (with AF-S 18-105mm VR Kit Lens)
112,950 (with AF-S 16-85mm VR Kit Lens)
79,450 (Body only)

Street prices should about about 5% less.

http://www.nikon.co.in/en_IN/product...n/data/Digital SLR Cameras/D7100.xml&CategoryID=gp11zkyo&currentTab=&currentL ink=

PS - If this is their current thinking the D400 when introduced will be 90K-105K. Given the financial results they are under fire for dropping Sales/Revenues. I heard from a major Mumbai dealer that they are going to increase prices of cameras/lenses again.

[joslicx]

That is very expensive R2D2. With the D7000 available for less than 70k with the kit lens (checked on camshot.in) what is the justification in spending 25k extra on D7100.

The price in US for body is just $1200. The difference was never this much. I am puzzled really. So D400, if it comes to India, will cost as much as D600!

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by joslicx

That is very expensive R2D2. With the D7000 available for less than 70k with the kit lens (checked on camshot.in) what is the justification in spending 25k extra on D7100.

The price in US for body is just $1200. The difference was never this much. I am puzzled really. So D400, if it comes to India, will cost as much as D600!

Yes I admit being unpleasantly surprised at the pricing here. Do they think this is a DX version of the D800E?

Dunno what is the reason but like I said it could be Sales/Revenue pressures post their declaration of financial results. Of course that's no consolation to any prospective buyer.

As I mentioned in the previous post if this line of thinking continues a D400 will be a premium pro grade product. And having many D300 and other enthusiastic DX users waiting in line for it they will price it around the 1L mark & just under the D600. That will also serve as an incentive for people to also consider a D600 FX camera...which I believe is what Nikon really wants high end DX users to do.

[ajay_satpute]

Originally Posted by R2D2

As mentioned before Nikon has different pricing policies for each country.

Nikon India has announced D7100 prices today as follows. Pretty expensive!!!

94,950 (with AF-S 18-105mm VR Kit Lens)
112,950 (with AF-S 16-85mm VR Kit Lens)
79,450 (Body only)

Street prices should about about 5% less.

http://www.nikon.co.in/en_IN/product...n/data/Digital SLR Cameras/D7100.xml&CategoryID=gp11zkyo&currentTab=&currentL ink=

So my concern has come true. It clearly crawls into FX territory. And after reading all you experts' comments, I guess Nikon is charging premium in spite of the camera being not so premium.

BTW, does anyone know if the dust issue on D600 and D800 has impacted Nikon sales and if this issue is diverting people to the Canon world? This period could be be similar to the Maruti strike issue a year ago. During that period, Tata ripped off humongous profits by selling nearly 2x passenger cars.

[R2D2]

Originally Posted by ajay_satpute

So my concern has come true. It clearly crawls into FX territory. And after reading all you experts' comments, I guess Nikon is charging premium in spite of the camera being not so premium.

Ajay bhau I am certainly no 'expert' just following what happens in the photo/imaging world as a matter of personal interest.

And yes, Nikon thru it's actions (and inactions) has been giving strong hints that they would rather their premium/pro/advanced amateur customers strongly consider FX.

Originally Posted by ajay_satpute

BTW, does anyone know if the dust issue on D600 and D800 has impacted Nikon sales and if this issue is diverting people to the Canon world? This period could be be similar to the Maruti strike issue a year ago. During that period, Tata ripped off humongous profits by selling nearly 2x passenger cars.

AFAIK the dust & oil splatter issue has only affected the D600 while the D800 had left focus point issues. The newer units don't have this issue but Nikon screwed up badly.

Whether Nikon customers went to Canon is a different matter - Canon doesn't have a camera that can match the D800's resolution and DR - yet. D600 users? Don't know really. Probably a few did but that too is a very compelling camera to keep vis a vis the Canon EOS 6D. Shajufx on TBHP has a D600 - hope he's not facing issues with dust/oil. Unlike cars which are sold lock, stock and barrel, the thing with cameras is that your lenses and other accessories lock you in. It's like quick sand - the more you have the deeper you sink in.