[AvonA7]

Originally Posted by jeevmenon

Nano < M800 < Alto < Spark - in that progression - if one rates "better car" in that progression => smells to me as pay-a-bit-more-to-get-a-better-car. Is that really the case? If it is then sadly the whole 12 pages of discussion is not of much use. Just list them from the Nano to the M800 thru the Estilo, Ritz, Swift up until the Honda Jazz, Fiat 100, BMW Mini and ask yourself how much can you pay? And there you will be. Thats the best you can buy with that money. Live with it. No research needed!

100% agree with you. I think your point sums-up the whole point of this healthy debate here.

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by jeevmenon

Nano < M800 < Alto < Spark - in that progression - if one rates "better car" in that progression => smells to me as pay-a-bit-more-to-get-a-better-car. Is that really the case?

I am ignoring the Nano here for various reasons. But if you take the other cars, yes, that is the case. A Spark @3.5L is a better car than the Alto @3L, which is a better car than the M800 @2.5L.

But then the above comparison is inter-segment, due to which the comparo is not rational. On the other hand, if we compare the Spark, Estilo, WagonR, Santro, i10, etc, then the better car is decided on various factors that make a car better among peers, than about how much they cost.

Originally Posted by jeevmenon

Just list them from the Nano to the M800 thru the Estilo, Ritz, Swift up until the Honda Jazz, Fiat 100, BMW Mini and ask yourself how much can you pay? And there you will be. Thats the best you can buy with that money. Live with it. No research needed!

Now, there is a difference between what one can buy with the money one has and what one needs. I know for a fact that you can easily afford a C-segment sedan, but chose to buy a Spark - due to being easy to drive/park/manage in Chennai. Does that make the Spark better than the ANHC ? No. But, the Spark is a better fit for your needs. And that is what matters.

[HammerHead]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

I dont think I said New=More efficient. I said, "New, efficient". New does not equate to "more efficient" or "more safer", but the efficiency part is proven on the whole K-series range. And proven on all the other cars running the K-series which are licking the competition out of contention.

I think I got it wrong. I think you mean 'proven efficiency' and not 'efficient and proven engine'. I see i10 smoking down K-Series A-Star which I feel are the competitors. While Estilo not really licking out Spark.

The Estilo is not the MR Wagon and I am sure about this because I have seen it in Japan and I am sure it is different because the MR Wagon takes ugliness to a new level.

Estilo is in fact 1st gen. MR Wagon. Search on net, Google is your friend
The one you saw in Japan is 2nd gen. I guess.

New is not equal to safe - simple as that. In the absence of crash ratings, the only thing we could depend on is airbag availability on each, which makes them 1=1 as of now.

Though I don't agree with you completely, and lack of crash test info. for Estilo/MR Wagon, I would settle down for 1=1.

Ha, ha. Funny to now see you use Gansan's line here, which you derided earlier.

Nothing funny in it!! I just tried to remind him his own lines

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by HammerHead

I see i10 smoking down K-Series A-Star which I feel are the competitors. While Estilo not really licking out Spark.

The i10 does smoke the A* in sales, but given that everyone says the A* is an Alto-replacement, I wonder how you think it is a competitor for the i10. And while I dont really look up sales figures, I think the Estilo outsells the Spark, though sales figures dont really decide the better car.

[HammerHead]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

The i10 does smoke the A* in sales, but given that everyone says the A* is an Alto-replacement.

Its true that A* is an Alto replacement, but in developed countries not in India. M800<Zen<Alto<A* = Suzuki Alto. Since Maruti still sell all those except zen, they had to place A* slightly higher where i10 resides.

I wonder how you think it is a competitor for the i10.

Why not? Both start at 3.5Lakh and almost similar specs. It makes more sense to compare A* with i10 then Alto with Spark

[jeevmenon]

Couple of points in other words:

1. You are in a open field of say 5 km radius circle. You are blind folded. TD various hatchbacks and Sedans as well. Can one rate them? Will the result be different than their price list rating? I have always wondered if one can distinguish a 2K shirt and 0.2K shirt if all tags are removed and they are shown to you in an open field.

2. Btw is the VFM/***/FE a factor that makes a car "better"? - this is an open question to all - if this does not then do we have the well-agreed upon "better"-rating within the same segment if you wish? I still feel we are biased with the on-road price already altering our reports. Btw, whats the criteria that decides a segment?

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

I know for a fact that you can easily afford a C-segment sedan, but chose to buy a Spark - due to being easy to drive/park/manage in Chennai.

@SB: Thats not fair. Only blind test based responses buddy! ;-) Btw, I had only driven my Dad's M800 before I did the Spark TD and got one. One reason was get one which not many own + support the underdog.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Does that make the Spark better than the ANHC ?

Never feel/meant that, SB! My cousin living across the street has the ANHC. Did not drive it but was a back-seat passenger for 50m once. Felt like in a plane.

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by HammerHead

Both start at 3.5Lakh and almost similar specs. It makes more sense to compare A* with i10, than Alto with Spark

The Estilo (and WagonR also - take/leave few thousands) also starts at 3.5lakhs and spec-ed similar to the i10. Wonder how you missed these. BTW, I have been saying from the beginning that Alto vs Spark is not a fair comparo.

Originally Posted by jeevmenon

You are in a open field of say 5 km radius circle. You are blind folded. TD various hatchbacks and Sedans as well. Can one rate them?

Judging a range of liquors blindfolded is tough enough, TD-ing cars blindfolded is taking things to another plane. I give up.

Originally Posted by jeevmenon

I have always wondered if one can distinguish a 2K shirt and 0.2K shirt if all tags are removed

I am sure you can distinguish between a shirt costing 2K and another costing 1/10th its price, even blindfolded. But the same comparo between a shirt costing 2K and 1.5K might be tough.

Originally Posted by jeevmenon

Btw is the VFM/***/FE a factor that makes a car "better"? - this is an open question to all - if this does not then do we have the well-agreed upon "better"-rating within the same segment if you wish? I still feel we are biased with the on-road price already altering our reports.

There is no bias here. A consumer usually is aware that certain cars stack against each other price-wise, eg Spark vs Estilo. What then matters is what parameters (FE, A**, looks, maintenance-cost etc) appeal to the buyer.

Originally Posted by jeevmenon

Btw, whats the criteria that decides a segment?

Quite hazy a differentiation - we would go really off-topic.

Originally Posted by jeevmenon

@SB: Thats not fair. Only blind test based responses buddy! ;-) Btw, I had only driven my Dad's M800 before I did the Spark TD and got one. One reason was get one which not many own + support the underdog.

On non-car issues, I go with the underdog, so I can see your point. But, I am glad you did not go with the real underdog.

Originally Posted by jeevmenon

My cousin living across the street has the ANHC. Did not drive it but was a back-seat passenger for 50m once. Felt like in a plane.

There are many better planes out there (costing upto 6crores), is all I can say.

[HammerHead]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

The Estilo (and WagonR also - take/leave few thousands) also starts at 3.5lakhs and spec-ed similar to the i10. Wonder how you missed these.

Because Estilo and WagonR are mini MAV/MPV's which can be compared to Spark and not i10 . IMO we need to also consider characteristics of the car not only price and specs to compare them.

[supremeBaleno]

OT: MAV/MPV is just car-maker's marketing jargon. Leaving that apart, the Spark/i10/WagonR/Estilo/Beat/Santro etc all fall in one group of tallboys and any person looking at a car in this segment would consider any of these as a possible buy. I don't see any special characteristic of the i10 that makes it uncomparable to the others.

@jeevmenon, I was thinking about your blindfolded TD theory. If a person were to do a blindfolded-TD of an M800 (maybe even an Alto) vs say a Spark/Estilo, won't there be a perceivable enough difference in driving characteristics for him to come to an understanding of which is the better car even without knowing the price ? I would think so - more obvious with an M800 (lack of PS) and to a lesser extent with the Alto (power delivery).

But if a similar experiment on same segment cars (eg. Spark, Estilo) would be a tough call.

[jeevmenon]

I thought this interesting thread had its RIP written. Yes, indeed sB - giving the blind-folded TD another thought - could it be tried on race-day? There's quite some things people can like/dislike or figure out blind-folded. The gear-throw lengths, smoothness, if it falls into slots well, in-cabin noise, seat comfort, leg-space. one can request for different terrain in the open ground as well such as gravel road, humps, etc. Btw would it suffice, to just get into the car blind-folded and then take off the fold would you still know which car it is? Maybe that could be the first attempt at rating cars and getting a good rating at that (+interior decor/comfort)

[HammerHead]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

OT: MAV/MPV is just car-maker's marketing jargon. Leaving that apart, the Spark/i10/WagonR/Estilo/Beat/Santro etc all fall in one group of tallboys and any person looking at a car in this segment would consider any of these as a possible buy. I don't see any special characteristic of the i10 that makes it uncomparable to the others.

Spark, Santro, WagonR were all replaced internationally by Beat, i10, Ritz.
IMO there is no point in comparing a older version of one car with a new version of another.

[supremeBaleno]

Internationally, maybe. But here they sell side-by-side and hence get compared.

[supremeBaleno]

A colleague was asking possible options for a new small car in 3-3.5 lakhs range. He was having Alto in his mind. Since the budget was 3.5, I suggested the SparkLS. However, he wants to buy the car in his hometown (Cuddalore) where the car will be used, but the Chevy site does not show any dealer in Cuddalore, with nearest dealers being in Chennai, Trichy etc.

He has the option of buying in Pondy too, but again no Chevy dealer there, which was a surprise because due to the low tax rates, you have dealers of almost all cars in Pondicherry.

Now, he is leaning towards the Estilo-Lxi only because of lack of sales/service support for Spark near his place.

[vivekgk]

I'd buy the Spark over the Alto in a second. Chevrolet has a good dealer/ASC here, they even have pickup and drop-off facility for service. The Spark looks much better than the Alto, is more spacious, and doesn't complain as much when you turn on the AC. I use the AC all the time, and I've gotten used to turning it off to overtake in my 800. The Spark with a proper four-cylinder mill gets my vote. I'd choose the Spark LT even over some of the bigger cars. Then there's the 3-year zero maintenance warranty which pretty much seals the deal for me. Even with a lower FE than the Alto, the Spark would be cheaper to run because of that.

We did consider the Spark very early on in our car choosing process, but decided to up the budget and go for a sedan.

[HammerHead]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

He has the option of buying in Pondy too, but again no Chevy dealer there, which was a surprise because due to the low tax rates, you have dealers of almost all cars in Pondicherry.

I had dropped an email to Chevy asking them if they have a dealer in Pondicherry, they emailed back following information. I hope this helps.