[vij]

Originally Posted by vinj14

In chennai the ex showroom price of the diesel is 24 lakhs and the on road price is 29.2 lakhs.

Oh.. were the prices quoted earlier in this thread wrong?

[Akshay1234]

Originally Posted by kbk_75

No rear view camera.

Is it possible the car you saw was a ore production import on display? The features would probably be what the test cars have. Knowing how terrible mercs sales staff is nowadays I wouldn't be surprised if the person who told you the above didn't know a word of what he was saying.

Also with the 2.2 it would be relatively easy to get it up to 170 bhp assuming its mechanically same to the c and e class, am trying to find out about that. Wish they had a fully loaded diesel model, though even the petrol with a remap to 150 odd bhp will not be bad at all.

[reddevilgautam]

fail pricing IMO...if and when the audi q3 140 bhp FWD launches (they were supposed to have launched it by now) and next year when A3 sedan comes, both should be priced around 24-26 lacs, which would wipe out the A-class.

[Maky]

Originally Posted by kbk_75

So then how come the Indian made E220 CDI makes the full 170 BHP and 400 NM torque? That car also runs on the same rubbish diesel, right? I cannot stand it when people offer idiotic excuses for things. This is PR spin, pure and simple. The bottom line is the engine in the diesel A class being offered here is desperately low rated for a 2.2 litre CRDI engine. It might still drive fairly well, I dunno, haven't had a chance to drive it, but 108 BHP out of a 2.2 CRDI is a joke!

Alrighty kbk_75 I had a look at the article and here is an excerpt:

Come June this year, Mercedes-Benz will launch a new diesel A-class too. It may not be the most powerful diesel you can get, but the 180 CDI diesel drives surprisingly well despite having only 108bhp.

But you mentioned that the 220 is doing that much HP/Torque. Are you absolutely certain of the figures of that diesel being sold here or have Autocar got it wrong.
If you're right and Autocar as well it could be possible that what the man said(EuroV comment) is not complete bullpoo and perhaps we are currently being offered an outdated engine with higher displacement but inferior performance?
Another possibility is they have detuned engine for efficiency but no way it hell would it be lowered to such low figures. I'm no technical expert but that doesn't sound right so it has to be one of the two reasons above.

Oh and here is an online link for the Euro V comment confirmation. Its in the 3rd paragraph.

[kbk_75]

Originally Posted by akshay1234

Is it possible the car you saw was a ore production import on display? The features would probably be what the test cars have. Knowing how terrible mercs sales staff is nowadays I wouldn't be surprised if the person who told you the above didn't know a word of what he was saying.

It's possible, I guess. Just checked the brochure and it makes no mention of park sensors or sat nav either, so I'm guessing those features probably won't be on the cars!

Originally Posted by Maky

Alrighty kbk_75 I had a look at the article and here is an excerpt:

Come June this year, Mercedes-Benz will launch a new diesel A-class too. It may not be the most powerful diesel you can get, but the 180 CDI diesel drives surprisingly well despite having only 108bhp.

But you mentioned that the 220 is doing that much HP/Torque. Are you absolutely certain of the figures of that diesel being sold here or have Autocar got it wrong.
If you're right and Autocar as well it could be possible that what the man said(EuroV comment) is not complete bullpoo and perhaps we are currently being offered an outdated engine with higher displacement but inferior performance?
Another possibility is they have detuned engine for efficiency but no way it hell would it be lowered to such low figures. I'm no technical expert but that doesn't sound right so it has to be one of the two reasons above.

Oh and here is an online link for the Euro V comment confirmation. Its in the 3rd paragraph.

Dug around a bit, seems they are also offering this detuned 2.2 in Europe, so at least it's not just us getting screwed over. Looks like they've completely optimized this engine for fuel efficiency, performance be damned. Well...guess the proof will be in the eating, once we drive the thing we'll know, but that's not going to be for a while! Why have these grand launches and have no cars available for delivery? That's so lame.

[Vid6639]

Originally Posted by kbk_75

Dug around a bit, seems they are also offering this detuned 2.2 in Europe, so at least it's not just us getting screwed over. Looks like they've completely optimized this engine for fuel efficiency, performance be damned. Well...guess the proof will be in the eating, once we drive the thing we'll know, but that's not going to be for a while! Why have these grand launches and have no cars available for delivery? That's so lame.

I tried searching everywhere and could not find the 2.2L engine with 109PS output anywhere.

109PS output is either from a 1.5L Renault engine or a modified 1.8L renault engine.

The 2.2L is only 170BHP.

http://media.daimler.com/dcmedia/0-9...0-0-0-0-0.html

Is it only india that gets this strange combination of OM651 2.2L and 109PS output.

[kbk_75]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

I tried searching everywhere and could not find the 2.2L engine with 109PS output anywhere.

109PS output is either from a 1.5L Renault engine or a modified 1.8L renault engine.

The 2.2L is only 170BHP.

http://media.daimler.com/dcmedia/0-9...0-0-0-0-0.html

Is it only india that gets this strange combination of OM651 2.2L and 109PS output.

No, you're right! What I meant was they were offering the A180 CDI with the same max power in Europe although that is an entirely different engine, as you mentioned. So what they've done is detuned the 2.2 to match the on-paper power specs of the European car, whereas that car has official fuel efficiency figures of 26 km/L!

[androdev]

I can offer two points (cents?) for the engine spec discussion:

1. Mercedes wants to keep the power spec lower to leave space for future launches. This is their cheapest car in the range, so obviously they would like to start low on power to avoid cannibalization of other models.

2. Same 2.2L or whatever engine at a lower tune. This needs no discussion really because all manufactures want to make as few blocks as possible and sell it in as many models as possible.

However I wonder why Diesel option is not fully loaded. This happened in 320d vs 328i as well. Maybe they have supply constraints on diesel blocks and want to push petrol sales instead?

Also given that Polo tsi is about 10L otr in Bangalore, I would have liked the A-class to be around 20L otr. Maybe Polo is priced too low ;-) I am sure Polo tsi has great future given the launch of A class, 1-series and A3, etc. But on a white Mercedes with panoramic roof is where my money would be!

[kryptonite]

I was thinking Mercedes detuned the 2.2 OM651 engine to stay within the spec of the 7G-DCT gearbox. Hmm...

The VW group does the same if you notice. Take the current states of tunes for the revised international 1.8 TSI Gen3 engines for example (not what runs in our Laura today). Though the 1.8 TSI is now capable of producing 320NM (ex: in the new 2013 Audi A4 with the 8-speed CVT), it is limited to 250NM in the new 2013 Skoda Octavia as the 7-speed DSG cannot handle more than 250NM, and they don't intend to use the 6-speed DSG with the 1.8 TSI for some reason.

The C-class comes with the 7G-Tronic transmission that is a torque convertor based setup and can handle up to 735NM of torque.

The A & B-class come instead with the 7G-DCT (dual clutch transmission). Initially, I thought Mercedes lowered the tune of the engine not really from 170ps to 109ps, but to reduce peak torque from 350NM to 250NM in order to stay within the gearbox spec (BHP drops as a consequence of drop in torque). Unfortunately, this brilliant theory was mine was put to rest when I just stumbled upon the info that the 2.2 OM651 is paired with the 7G-DCT in other countries in the 170ps/350NM state of tune, and that the 7G-DCT can handle upto 350NM

So, looks like Mercedes just got distracted with our country's obsession with 'kitna deti hai...'

And on the 'kitna deti hai...' note:

Originally Posted by rohanjf

Now MBIL is able to boast that a full tank will take you a thousand KM without a need of refuelling. I can't think of any other car that can boast this!

Many cars can theoretically do this based on ARAI claimed figures, but it's not the same in real world driving, which is why you need to rely on proper professional reviews.

The A class has a fuel tank of 50 litres. Comes with a 2.2 Diesel in a 109ps, 250NM state of tune. ARAI fuel efficiency is a claimed 20kmpl. Mercedes is calculating 1000km a tank from 50 litres x 20kmpl, but you do realize that you won't necessarily get 20kmpl on the highways, right? The ARAI figures are under standard testing conditions.

Let me give you an example of another car that can do this 'theoretically'.
My Skoda Rapid has a fuel tank of 55 litres. Comes with a 1.6 Diesel in a 105ps, 250NM state of tune. ARAI fuel efficiency is a claimed 20.5 kmpl. Do the math

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[DicKy]

Me think it's a big mess up from MBIL's press release and website.
They already have a 1.8cdi that gives the same output and all, why they would they bring the 2.2 engine in a detuned manner.???
It's the 1.8cdi engine in the correct spec and badge n all, just that some communication error brought the 2143cc into all this.
I maybe wrong, but still from the looks of it, this is the only possible way. Why would they detune the 2.2l engine when they already have a 1.8l engine with the same power and performance?

[Akshay1234]

Originally Posted by DicKy

Me think it's a big mess up from MBIL's press release and website.
They already have a 1.8cdi that gives the same output and all, why they would they bring the 2.2 engine in a detuned manner.???
It's the 1.8cdi engine in the correct spec and badge n all, just that some communication error brought the 2143cc into all this.
I maybe wrong, but still from the looks of it, this is the only possible way. Why would they detune the 2.2l engine when they already have a 1.8l engine with the same power and performance?

Simply so that they can use the existing assembly line of the 2.2 and save on costs. Merc assembles their engines here remember.

[agambhandari]

Originally Posted by akshay1234

Simply so that they can use the existing assembly line of the 2.2 and save on costs. Merc assembles their engines here remember.

Anybody thinking of how much more performance can be extracted from this engine without upgrading the hardware? (Turbo etc.)
Anything near 180 bhp and you have Indians first hot hatch!!

[nipcarlover]

If the 2.2 is mechanically the same as the one in the C, then it should be fairly easy to extract a similar amount of power from that motor, maybe even more.
I think it should be fairly easy to extract 170-180 BHP and 40-45 KGM of torque from that motor if it is identical to the one in the C, given of course that the gearbox can handle it.

[Arch-Angel]

I, on a personal note, feel that there is something like the typical hindi phrase "Daal mein kuch kaala he". I assume MBIL is ensuring that the other products on its lineup don't get cannibalized by its own offering. Assuming this had 180 BHP, it would translate into a lot of enthusiasts going in droves to get a piece of this very tasty pie. Unfortunately, MBIL is playing it safe by keeping in mind longevity and the Indian obsession with mileage. But i feel that excuse of Euro V emission norms is bull, purely a business decision is what i can of.

As far as modifications go, we really need to see what this engine a.k.a the 180 CDI is really upto. I only think the ECU has been detuned and not the internals by any means. Assuming the tranny system is upto the job, i feel tuners can extract around the official figures for this engine.

[Vid6639]

Originally Posted by Arch-Angel

As far as modifications go, we really need to see what this engine a.k.a the 180 CDI is really upto. I only think the ECU has been detuned and not the internals by any means. Assuming the tranny system is upto the job, i feel tuners can extract around the official figures for this engine.

Originally Posted by nipcarlover

If the 2.2 is mechanically the same as the one in the C, then it should be fairly easy to extract a similar amount of power from that motor, maybe even more.
I think it should be fairly easy to extract 170-180 BHP and 40-45 KGM of torque from that motor if it is identical to the one in the C, given of course that the gearbox can handle it.

Originally Posted by agambhandari

Anybody thinking of how much more performance can be extracted from this engine without upgrading the hardware? (Turbo etc.)
Anything near 180 bhp and you have Indians first hot hatch!!

The question is not whether you can extract more power from the engine later on but why is Merc not offering the higher engine tune in the first place.

Why would a customer spend close to 30L on Mercedes hatch with 109PS then spend another lakh in modifications to increase to 180Ps, thereby losing warranty on the car. How many C class, E class have you heard with tuning boxes.

The 2.1L engine makes sense since it is locally assembled by Force motors. There was no point in bringing down a new 1.8L engine. Detuning that 2.1L engine so heavily to 109PS is pure stupidity by Mercedes. That too nowhere in the world is this configuration offered.