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9th February 2015, 19:30 | #1141 |
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| re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore I hope that this paves way to either 1) one tax across all states (or) 2) Make it easier for people to transfer. It should be as easy as just applying for transfer or re-registration and paying up the difference in road-tax (if any) or getting the refund from the first state. But we all know that in India, rules are made with the sole purpose of making people's lives difficult. So, I don't see (2) happening. So, in my opinion, the only way forward is abolishing the current rules and make tax uniform across states. Oh, by the way, I think the number of people genuinely affected are much smaller than those who deliberately avoid the tax. Two reasons: 1. I see several non KA cars in my office parking, for several months. 2. I see several cars coming into the city (crossing Tamilnadu border) on Monday morning, which means the car spends 5 days of a week in KA. You can counter this with ifs and buts, but I doubt any of them are good enough. |
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9th February 2015, 19:53 | #1142 | |||
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| re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore Quote:
1) This can be observed from incidents all over this thread. 2) Changing the rule from 11 months to 1 month. Can't someone travel with their car to another state and stay for more than a month ? If he does, he has to pay 15 year road tax ? Defies logic and points only to a vicious black marketeer type intention. Why was a 1 year rule not implemented for paying road tax instead of changing the time frame to 1 month ? Rules are meant for the people, not against the people, even if they don't belong to Karantaka, they are still people of India. 3) Another point which shows the evil intentions are, if you pay the road tax, they are okay if you don't change the registration number because they know that if you do decide to move back to your state, you cannot claim the road tax back as you have not re registered in Karnataka. Evil Kenevil eh? Quote:
With your logic, cities which are highly populated should tax people moving into them too ? They add to the usage of infrastructure like electricity, water supply, drainage system, public transport etc etc which is already overstretched. You negate the concept of India with these division lines. Quote:
Well, proving long term residence is a problem because the RTO wants an easy way out by just thinking everyone is a long termer and hence brought out this rule. Secondly, the yearly taxes should be applicable if I stayed for more than a year, not if I stayed for more than a month. Month is too short a time. There was a street in Coventry where I used to live, which had a lot of drug peddlers who used to sell them to everyone including underage kids, thank god the Coventry Police did not think that all of us were complicit in the crimes because we happen to live on that street. Last edited by humyum : 9th February 2015 at 19:55. | |||
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9th February 2015, 22:08 | #1143 | ||||||||||
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| re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore Quote:
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1. The first notice gets served by one officer, what guarantee is that he would detect the second offence as well? Karnataka RTO does not have the black-berry based system which Bengaluru Traffic Police has. So tracking repeat violation is going to be a problem. 2. How is the "making sure" of vehicle getting an NOC enforced? No one in this world would believe the oral statements given by people. So either the vehicle has to be seized or some other major document of the owner has to be seized. This was precisely what Bengaluru RTO was doing even during the last drive. They seized the vehicles. Seizing DLs, existing RC books etc. would not make any difference. Quote:
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1. Why should any state levy a Motor Vehicle Tax? Does'nt that violate freedom of movement? Even if I ply between Ernakulam and Palakkad (within Kerala state), I still have to pay Kerala Motor Vehicle taxes? Is'nt that an injustice? 2. MV Act mandates that a driving license is mandatory, and there is an minimum age limit. It violates the freedom of movement of my 10 year old nephew, who cannot drive a car and go from Palakkad to Ernakulam. Why is the law restricting the rights of movement for my poor nephew? 3. During my trips to Kerala, I have to pay nearly Rs.250 as the tolls in various NHAI booths. Gross injustice, I must say. Why should I pay tolls, as the constitution guarantees "freedom of movement". To sum it up "Freedom of Movement" comes with its own checks and balances. The state of Karnataka does not stop any one from travelling by any public transport (bus, trains, flights etc.), or by private transport. It is all allowed if the people follow the other legally established Legislations,Acts & Rules. Quote:
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9th February 2015, 22:14 | #1144 |
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| re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore I have a number of vehicles, almost all of them registered in KA except one, which is registered in my native state. It is true that I got a hefty discount on the LTT in my state, it is also true that I keep going out of KA almost every month on that vehicle, and it is again also true that I have stayed in KA for years. I admit that one of the considerations of my buying the vehicle in my home state was the reduced price. However, I could have gotten it Pondy registered. I didn't, I went to my home state, because, interestingly, the brand did not have established presence in KA at that time, but it did in my home state. I felt more comfortable buying it there. Anyway, ethically, I do agree - to an extent - that because roads in KA are about 100 times better than in my home state, I should pay a higher LTT here. But I also feel that as Indians we are overtaxed and that my tax money is under/mis-utilized. All in all, the solution I feel I would like is this: 1. Let road infrastructure be a pan-India issue. Let pan-Indian rules be set for road-related taxes. 2. Let a pan-India committee rank states by their total road infrastructure and road tax utilisation. Based on that, let the committee set up rules on which state should get how much of tax collected per vehicle. 3. Let every vehicle, wherever purchased, pay a fixed LTT that goes into the account of the pan-India road department. 4. Over the lifetime of the vehicle, let this amount be distributed to state road depts according to the vehicle's travels and locations, as well as ranking of the state it is in. 5. The calculations are complex, but not impossible to set up in a fair manner. What I mean to say is, I am happy to pay even a few lakhs of rupees off the top of my expensive SUV's showroom price as LTT. I just don't think it is fair for state RTOs to keep charging me LTTs every time I switch location. Importantly, bank loans come at the time of car purchase, not when RTOs charge separate LTTs. On the other hand, I see an RTOs viewpoint that, if I buy a car in another state, but then use that car mostly in that RTO's state, then I should pay them something. Given the harassment one has to go through for refunds from the government in India, I think my proposed solution - one LTT distributed to RTOs where my car is located, is fair. This solution will reduce people's urge to cheat state governments by registering elsewhere. It will also be fair to migrants who live in different states at different times. It will also be fair to people like me who do intend to pay LTT in the state they use their car in, but in a less stressful manner. And it will be fair to state RTOs who see a need to collect taxes from vehicles using their road infrastructure. |
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9th February 2015, 23:20 | #1145 | |||||||
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| re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore Quote:
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Let me copy paste some of the incidents posted on the facebook community which was made specially for this cause. Look how the cop even after the court order had tried to fleece the people. Bloody Gunday Incident No 1 - "Today I was stopped by cops in Intermediate Ring Road before EGL entrance around 12 noon. I was riding my TN bike from Ejipura to Domlur. After checking my DL and Insurance, they ask for KA Tax. I told them about the high court order. Since the constable was not ready to accept this, I went to the sub inspector (R Vijay) and politely explained the situation. He started shouting at me and told not talk rules to him. It ended up in an argument and he threatened to seize my bike. Also he ordered the constables to seize the bike. However I refused to hand over the key to cops. The sub inspector told me to produce a copy of the court order. Since I was not carrying it with me, I told him that I can get it in 15 mins. Still the sub inspector was threatening me saying that he will teach me a lesson. Later the constable let me go. The inspector was very rude, however the constables were decent. I came to my office in EGL, took 5 copies of the order and went back to him. Inspector read the court order and thrown it away. I have given a copy to the constables also. One of the constable was a sensible guy, he thanked me for getting him a copy of the order, also he mentioned that he is not aware of the court order. Anyway, I haven't paid a single penny to them. Incident Number 2 "I was just stopped infront of HSR police station by 3 traffic cops. As soon I got down one cop asked me for tax papers and I asked him does he has authority to ask for tax papers. Then he directed me to other side of road where 2 other cops were standing and they also questioned me same. I told him we have stay order from high court and asked them to refer the court order. Immediately he replied that he also know the order and pressed for my tax payment receipt. Immediately I asked him to give me challan and said if want can seize my vehicle, then he asked me to go. Along wid me ther was one UA reg two wheeler guy wid whom police was demanding same. Infront of cop I told him tat if you have any issue relating to tax let me know I can help. Then cop charged him only for not wearing helmet. I regret that I missed to take names of those cops. If any one face similar trouble pleas be bold and press for challan. If they dare to issue challan then they know the consequences of it" I can post many more, but I hope you get the drift. Quote:
Instead of finding a better system to implement the 11 month rule, the government decided it was best to be brutal and come up with a 1 month rule. 21 top ka salam to whoever came up this plan without understanding that people come for a 2 to 3 month assignment too, 2 month vacation, 6 month sabbatical and what not. Quote:
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10th February 2015, 00:09 | #1146 | |||||
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| re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore Quote:
On a serious note, none of these proves beyond doubt that the vehicle has stayed in Karnataka for over 30 days. Does it? Unfortunately, the sorry state of our law is that the onus is on the victim to prove that he is innocent and not on the lawmakers to prove that the accused is guilty. Quote:
I am not exactly asking for yearly tax. I am telling that vehicles older than say 3 or 5 years (a logical number) should be exempted from re-registration and Tax payment as the intention here does not seem to be tax evasion. Quote:
Again are we talking about "optional" payment of LTT here? Vehicle is seized and the owner is FORCED to pay the tax ASAP. It is true that he might have evaded tax. But neither giving him an opportunity nor forcing him to re-register but collecting tax only is plain day light robbery. Quote:
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10th February 2015, 00:10 | #1147 | |
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| re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore Quote:
1. You have no other means of transport to travel between these two places? You have to pay tax because the cmv states that you have register it, probably you find it unjust that you have to pay for fuel to travel. I can drive to Kerala in my KA registered car and nobody says I have to pay LTT because I used the same road 3 weeks in a row, law enforcement isn't extortion. 2. You might not get a license because you can't see over the steering wheel even if you're an adult , does you nephew pay tax on his pocket money? You can take him around or his parents can. A ten year old driving a Ferrari was the topic of a hot thread about parental responsibility or lack thereof. Your nephew should take the bus to school for now. 3. It's called user development fee, stop batting for freebies, owning a car means you are not exactly scraping by. When there was no toll, instead of paying 250,you'd end up spending twice the amount in fuel and average around 25kmph. Paying for convenience isn't new. No, it doesn't, the state of Karnataka doesn't have any business putting checks and balances on constitutional rights, nor is that allowed in the current system. Legislations, Acts and Rules can't violate the Constitution, because the state ran out of money to distribute free rice. You've been going on about the tax dodging outsiders/litigants versus the law enforcers, we have a great system to fight against unjust legislation. It seems to fly over your head that just because it's legal doesn't mean it's just. On the legal part, something you seem to be so gleeful about, how can a law be enforced when the president's assent is not given. | |
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10th February 2015, 09:13 | #1148 |
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| Techie forced to pay Rs 30,000 for plying non-Karnataka registered vehicle Today's Bangalore Mirror http://www.bangaloremirror.com/Banga...w/46179736.cms Let me copy paste some of the text to make it absolutely clear to people who support the KA thugs. "The transport department blatantly violated a Karnataka High Court order, by collecting Rs 30,000 as life time tax from a techie for plying a non- Karnataka registered car on city roads. A single bench of the Karnataka High Court had, in an interim order in November, directed the transport department not to collect lifetime tax for a time of eight weeks. The stay order was applicable from the first week of November, but transport officials blatantly violated the directions by stopping the vehicle of Shankar Narayan Pallavaram, a native of Chennai, on 14 November on the Outer Ring Road near Silk Board junction and demanding a lifetime tax. The official seized his documents, which he got back only after depositing the next day at the RTO office at Koramangala. "I was travelling in my elder brother's Maruti Zen, a Tamil Nadu registered car of 2005 model when we were stopped by an official of the transport department. I showed him my driving licence, PAN Card, Company ID card. He collected all the documents and took away the car key," he said. Narayan told the official that the car was not plying in the city and had been brought from Chennai only on October 25. "To substantiate my claim, I also submitted the toll receipts as evidence, but it cut no ice with him as he replied that people can visit Hosur to get the a toll receipt to avoid the taxes," Narayan said. Finally, the official issued Narayan a notice that said the car had been in use for a year and demanded that he pay the tax. "I refuse to sign on the paper as the notice was illegal and was not acceptable to me. He gave back my key and told me to collect all the documents from Koramanagala RTO the next day," recalled Shankara Narayan. Next day, the officials at the RTO office told him that he would get back his documents only if he submitted a request letter stating that he was willing to pay the tax. Narayan paid Rs 30,000 and got back his documents. "I did not know then that the High Court had given a stay barring officials from collecting life time tax for non-Karnataka registered vehicle. I came to know about it only wheni saw a Bangalore Mirror story on it on a social network site," he said. Speaking to Bangalore Mirror, an officer at the Koramangala RTO said, "I am not aware of the case. The owner might have paid the tax voluntarily, but I would be able to comment on the issue only after going through the records." |
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10th February 2015, 10:37 | #1149 |
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| re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore Ha great, now RTO will face the heat for contempt of court. This is what we all were waiting for. |
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10th February 2015, 10:54 | #1150 | ||||||||||||||||
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10th February 2015, 11:11 | #1151 | ||
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| re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore Quote:
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Last edited by ::CMS:: : 10th February 2015 at 11:26. | ||
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10th February 2015, 11:21 | #1152 | ||
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| re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore Quote:
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2. What is the parent Act for Karnataka Motor Vehicle Taxation Act? Which section should I refer to understand the link between the state act and the Central MV Act. 3. What articles of Constitution of India should I refer to? And what do you feel are the articles which are violated by the amendment on the Karnataka Motor Vehicle Taxation act? And why? Please note, the Karnataka MV Taxation Act was first passed in the year 1957. It was not found against the constitution till date. What has changed now? Note: I have been providing quotes, links and additional information when I post here . It would also help me if other's can also help me by providing addl. information which I can read up. Last edited by sachinpk : 10th February 2015 at 11:22. | ||
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10th February 2015, 11:23 | #1153 | |
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| re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore Quote:
Apparently, UP government is not so smart (maybe that's why they are a poor state also). I wonder if they could ever do this in Delhi NCR. Cars do get registered in UP even though taxes are higher than Haryana/Delhi/UK. According to you, may be Army lobbied very hard and that's why they have got special arrangement. I don't even even need to say anything here. Comparing a high priority Govt owned and operated department to poor private sector employees shows complete lack of reason. Last edited by atnyia : 10th February 2015 at 11:30. Reason: Removed OT content, spelling error | |
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10th February 2015, 11:41 | #1154 | ||
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| re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore Quote:
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Last edited by ::CMS:: : 10th February 2015 at 11:46. | ||
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10th February 2015, 12:09 | #1155 |
BHPian | re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore Wow..so much debate on - pay or not to pay. Well, its grey. I myself am not from this state, I bought my vehicle in KA and registered it here. Now imagine if other states implement the same rule, then I cannot drive down to my home town. I have to carry ID proof and nativity proof and passports!! If we are to take such harsh stances on payments and bring in divides , then I think our country should just stop building those highways across states. For what are they? to drive through for days on and get back to home RTO and enjoy your vacation? Lets keep checkposts at every RTO jurisdiction. Every interpretation has its right and wrong. As long as it is not practical, lets not take harsh stances. Thats my view. |
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