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14th April 2015, 21:42 | #1276 |
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| Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore Guys, Just a generic question. How much time does the RTO provide to pay the LTT? What if a person gets caught and the person does not have that much of a money readily available, with the LTT in many cases going up to a lac? As a salaried person myself, the monthly income vanishes in the first week itself with the different emis and other monthly expenses and anything left is just about to manage the rest of the month and would certainly require some time/days to get the LTT money arranged. |
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14th April 2015, 22:48 | #1277 | |
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Bangalore
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| Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore Quote:
Please tell me ONE other item, for using which outside of the state of purchase I have to pay a tax to the new state (as an individual; I am not conversant enough with the laws governing institutional purchases)? Taxing any good or service twice is unconstitutional and against the basic principles of natural justice. This is also possibly the reason the judge commented that the KA amendment is ultra vires. Anyway, I believe this thread is approaching the locking threshold yet again; so in case you want to follow up please do so on PM. | |
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14th April 2015, 22:55 | #1278 |
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| Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore @binand: you just opened up a hornet's nest. Please don't air such thoughts here and give further ideas to our babus. We will then be paying octroi and excise on everything. Buy a burger in hosur, cross the state border and pay tax for it. Calculate the fuel left in your tank and pay tax for that when entering the state. Or maybe you'll be given 5 mins to finish it. @karts: that was the reason I asked about the loan for paying taxes. An enterprising person can start loaning the amount and tort with the RTO and make a good sum. |
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14th April 2015, 23:19 | #1279 |
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| Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore I would just reiterate my earlier stated opinion: Why not just charge usage-based tax? Simplest way to do that would be have a smaller window (annual/biannual) and make the payment process online. For the current generation's employment scenario, it's ridiculous to make someone (re)pay tax for 15 years (pro-rated) when the MAJORITY won't stay in one place that long. They already do it for govt. employees in some form, so no excuse to say the system doesn't exist or can't be implemented. I understand and agree that the state has rights, but what about the consumer's rights? What about my constitutional right to move freely across the length & breadth of the nation as a citizen? Why subject it to caveats, making me pay over and over again for the 'privilege' to use non-existent infrastructure? And what about returning my money (pro-rated) once I'm no longer using the infrastructure that you charged me a bomb for? When the RTO is pro-active enough to go around seizing vehicles and documentation when it comes to 'earning' revenue, why the endless lethargy in 'returning' my rightful dues even after submitting all necessary (and unnecessary) documentation under the sun? My refund claim from my previous state is pending for nearly FOUR years now and I don't really expect that money, ever. Why is the obligation to be law-abiding only the citizen's burden in this country? Last edited by Chetan_Rao : 14th April 2015 at 23:22. |
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15th April 2015, 00:15 | #1280 | |
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Pune
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| Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore Quote:
I also told them that I would file a harassment case in my home town Pune on my return and they will waist their time visiting the court there. Finally after about 20 min of talking a more senior officer came over and let me off with nominal bribe. Rahul | |
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15th April 2015, 01:14 | #1281 | |
Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Mumbai
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| Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore Quote:
If they want road tax in their state, they should collect it from the state which the car has initially paid the amount and whatever little is left if any, I will pay because when they collect road tax, they want it at the speed of light, when we want to refund, its a slow, tedious process. Have a centralized system or collect tax from the state the vehicle has paid road tax in or simply forget about collecting road tax from outside vehicles. Harassing people is simply nonsense. About people talking about 'using infrastructure' of the city/state bla bla, Yeah, its my country, I will use its infrastructure, I don't pay income tax, this tax, that tax in Maharashtra only for the development of MH, its for the entire country so I have every right to roam around wherever I want in it. I don't understand and I don't want to understand too the laws which are not for the common public but just for filling up coffers. Period. Last edited by humyum : 15th April 2015 at 01:18. | |
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15th April 2015, 02:02 | #1282 |
BHPian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Bengaluru
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| Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore At the risk of being pounced over, I would like to say, laws are laws, period. The lifetime road tax law in Karnataka is the same for me (born and brought up here) or for a person who has migrated for work/business/livelihood/or anything else. Not abiding by the law of the land is an offense and is punishable in the court of law. The law is made by representatives elected by us and having elected them all we can do is appeal in court (which someone has already done). When the court has vacated a stay on a law, the authorities are empowered to bring the defaulters to books. To follow a law and pay the LTT or to sell the car in the state it has been registered or to risk and be an offender is a personal choice. Why on earth would KA RTO be interested in getting the road tax from the state where one would already have paid? They aren't paid to do that. I understand refunds are a pain and one will have to do a couple trips to the RTO. But then, when one would have the time to shift base from one state to another, I guess two trips to a government office isn't much of an ask. I know it would have been great to have RTOs of states handshake with each other, but we are living in a developing country and we'll have to be patient. Sample this. If one hasn't received an IT Refund for, say 2010-11, would he/she be allowed to adjust that in the subsequent years' TDS? Or if one has evaded IT in a year, would the IT dept deduct more TDS the next year? Sachin, thanks for persevering what is right (according to law( against all odds. Others please don't take me wrong, I know this is unfair (1 month that is), but isn't it also unfair that people of this state (I mean born and living here and who don't want to break the law by registering in PY and driving here) pay almost double what people of other states pay. Are they complaining? Yes they are, but are they breaking the law? I can safely say 95% aren't. We all know KA's road tax has gone over the roof. But until either the central govt enforces or KA changes by itself, we all know it isn't going southwards. And using the term goons, there's a video where a lady sitting in a parked mon KA car tries to run over a cop who's standing in front of it to ensure she doesn't escape, while another police officer is asking her for the documents. The video is right there on the web, the police didn't harass her. Now, people again can choose whom to term goons. Whatever they choose, I pity that lady's next few years. Last edited by Driving_Nomad : 15th April 2015 at 02:09. |
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15th April 2015, 09:56 | #1283 | ||||
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| Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore Quote:
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'Run over' is too big a word to use for that video. Its like someone nudging someone and you say 'attempt to murder'. | ||||
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15th April 2015, 09:57 | #1284 | |
BHPian | Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore Quote:
I have a few points. To begin with, we are in a democracy which has not one but many hurdles. The governance needs to improve a lot and also a lot needs to be done. However when one takes the effort of relocating here, they would have already done their homework on this aspect as well. So what's the point in cribbing after arriving here and refusing to abide by the law. A few years back when by brother came back to KA after a long time in Delhi, I encouraged him to re register here which he did eventually by spending 35k on a car which was 7 years old. The point is in today's world information is openly available and inspite of that I wonder why this comes as a "shock". Finally registering a car in PY or elsewhere to save on tax and driving on KA roads is certainly the right thing to do. I rest my case here. | |
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15th April 2015, 11:22 | #1285 | |
Senior - BHPian | Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore Quote:
What I am saying is give an option for lesser years. Laws should be made for the people. It's my country, I can go anywhere I want. You can't penalize me for doing that. | |
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15th April 2015, 12:17 | #1286 | |||||||||||||
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| Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore Quote:
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------------------ Any way as people feel that this thread may get locked up soon. Considering that a central level legislation on taxation would not come at least for some time, we have to assume that state's have the authority to collect road taxes. What I feel would be a better approach (for KA RTO to do) is:- 1. Make the LTT payment optional. So for a KA domicile person if he wishes to pay LTT he can do so. Sum paid as LTT for 15 years should be at least 10-20% lower than paying annual tax for 15 years on a year by year basis. Just like the concept for BMTC monthly pass. Upfront payment gets a discount. 2. Re-introduce "Entry Tax". Counters can be established at the state borders, with adequate staff placed in. The tax collected should enable the user to use the state's roads for one month from the time of entry. Again the tax amount should be HIGHER than the annual tax paid upfront. This would reduce the motivation of people to jump across the state every month and come back. 3. RTOs to collect road tax for shorter duration of 1/2/5 year period again with appropriate discounting mechanisms. On steps #1,#2 & #3 there should not be any coercion for payments. Provide people with the facility to pay, but they can plan it out. Now (for the fun part)!!!. Increase RTO mobile squads manifold (or give the police mobiles the same powers). Like what they have in Kerala; no vehicle should use a major road without spotting one Police or Highway mobile every 50-60kms. Any vehicle which gets caught and cannot show the tax paid receipt (for any duration, and valid as of date), the vehicle should be impounded immediately. A hefty tax (of say 5 year validity), with a hefty fine should be collected on the spot before the documents/vehicles is returned to the owner. The punishment when caught with out a tax receipt should be a good deterrent which would make people cringe. For repeat offenders, arrest them, make entry on their DL, or remand them to be produced before a magistrate; all can be tried out. The onus to prove that the tax is paid should be with the vehicle owner. Using KA roads is a privilege (after due payments) and not a right. How practical would be the above? "Freedom of movement" also is given to a large extent, but state also is not losing its revenue. Last edited by sachinpk : 15th April 2015 at 12:24. | |||||||||||||
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15th April 2015, 13:07 | #1287 |
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| Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore The 1 month rule is unfair, and strange. (why 30 days? similar to a single entry visa?). I know the Govt here is extra proactive when it comes vehicle and fuel taxes. Now if they could be equally aggressive in introducing a swift and easy refund system for tax paid based on number of years spent in KA, so that refunds are hassle free. Retrospectively, this would garner more tax collection than going for a forced drive like now. On a lighter side, evading the RTO authorities in BLR has some best practices... >Non KA vehicles with number plate written in Kannada. (Such vehicles have to be given a tax discount in the interest of promoting local language) >Army/Press stickers prominently displayed (yet the owners are invariably non fauj- IT folks) >Non existent front number plate (preempting a frontal catch and punish?) >Vehicles running on Temp/For Regn plates for an eternity. >Plate artistry... Ex. How HR is made to look like KA. >Regimental Emblems stuck on the registration plate. |
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15th April 2015, 15:01 | #1288 |
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| Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore As with all things in life, there is white, black, and a million shades of grey in between. In the case of the issue being discussed here: White
Black
Grey
In a free country like ours, and a city like Bangalore, you will get a fair proportion of people in all three categories. So, with the exception of people in White category points 1 & 2, the RTO will be extremely interested in all others. Now mind, in a free country and a democracy, it is highly improper for a Government to appropriate for itself, even by using a legislative route, disproportionate powers that could make it resemble goonda raj (let us face it though, most of our law makers belong to that category). Having said that, the RTO needs a robust mechanism to recognise people belonging to White point 3, and the Black category. Because the White No. 3 should not be harassed, and everyone belonging to the Black category needs to be pulled up and have the book thrown at their heads. But what about the ones in the Grey category? How does the RTO distinguish them from Black? It is a tricky minefield, because the investigative methods used by Karnataka RTO recently would make all of them appear Black. Since RTO is an arm of the Government, they need to perform their duty of enforcing the law while also be mindful of the rights of the citizens. The debate in this forum, as I have observed, is all to do with this same question. And, to be fair to both sides, this is a very tricky question. So whats the solution? @sachinpk has already provided one, I will suggest another. Assuming that
We could do away with Life Time Tax altogether. All the so called "Road Tax" is levied on a per litre/kg basis on fuel. Since fuel purchase is directly proportional to use of road, this becomes a vastly fairer system. I am no expert on taxation, but this system could be revenue neutral if tax rates were appropriately set. Last edited by KiloAlpha : 15th April 2015 at 15:05. |
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15th April 2015, 15:29 | #1289 | |
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| Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore Quote:
Facebook has a picture which is getting shared. A fuel bunk in TN has put up a poster in Malayalam. It states that this bunk is the last one before the TN-KL border, and the fuel costs Rs.3/litre LESS than the pump in KL. The pump owners and KL can sit and sulk, if people just read the message and top up their tanks here (when going towards KL, or folks from KL actually crossing the borders to top up the tanks). Long distance buses from Calicut side makes sure that they refill from the small one street-town of Mahe, because the fuel prices are very low out there. So if any state plans to collect Road Tax by increasing (or adding up to) the fuel price, people would still find a way to evade the tax. Last edited by sachinpk : 15th April 2015 at 15:39. | |
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15th April 2015, 16:08 | #1290 | |
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| Re: Case: Out of State Cars vs RTO Bangalore Quote:
How many people from around Karwar regularly hop into Goa to fill up? Quite a few, I would have guessed. | |
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