[tifosikrishna]

i fully agree with devarshi that tatas and mahindras are learning and evolving much faster and the quality of present vehicles are much better than what they were 3 or 4 years back. one must accept the that our indian companies werent really opened to competition and global manufacturing practices for the last four and half decades. you have to be cognizant of the fact that these giant elephants have quickly adapted themselves to the change and are emerging as clear winners in the respective segments. give them sometime to evolve, i am sure all those quality issues will be addressed sooner than later. another case in point is bajaj. they have really turned their tables and coming with one successful model after another and competing very well in the open markets. I am sure that our faith in these companies will be vindicated in the years to come and times are not far off when Tatas and Mahindras are revered world over.

[hkollar]

>i fully agree with devarshi that tatas and mahindras are learning and evolving

I don't doubt that. I just don't want that learning to be at my cost.

:-)

I paid for Indica V1, and didn't receive Tata Motor's shares, for contributing to their experiment...!! How's that fair?

He he.

Tata hasn't recalled one Car, nor have they replaced any component as part of service, unless the problem was pointed out by customers and replacement demanded. Most importantly - when they knew they released a sub-standard, untested product into market.

Being patriotic Can't mean you support poor quality products and bad service. If that was the case, then why not stick with BSNL for our Mobile phone needs?? They too are improving and it is partially owned by you and me, as citizens...

[GTO]

For most people who look down upon the Innova....just look beyond the looks! That car has a depth of engineering that Tata and Mahindra can only dream about. Period.

mercedes as a matter of fact has a bad resale

Incorrect, atleast in Bombay. The C and the E Class have excellent resale values especially the diesel ones. Surprising keeping the frequented problems and high maintainence costs.

GTO

[devarshi84]

Originally Posted by hkollar

I don't doubt that. I just don't want that learning to be at my cost.

I paid for Indica V1, and didn't receive Tata Motor's shares, for contributing to their experiment...!! How's that fair?

He he.

Tata hasn't recalled one Car, nor have they replaced any component as part of service, unless the problem was pointed out by customers and replacement demanded. Most importantly - when they knew they released a sub-standard, untested product into market.

Being patriotic Can't mean you support poor quality products and bad service. If that was the case, then why not stick with BSNL for our Mobile phone needs?? They too are improving and it is partially owned by you and me, as citizens...

One of the neighbours of ours has a indica v2 and he recently got an indigo. Now I certainly dont see why he will pay for an indigo if he feels tata is researching on this fellows money. Tata gives the best product available. Its just the updates you get with the breakthrough in technology. they dont give you an unfinished product. they give you updated technology.

mahindra scorpio was a good car but still it received the new engine as soon as mahindra got it right(the first engine upgrade before the CRDE). why would you still buy a hyundai sonata(old model) when you knew japanese and European cars were lightyears ahead than this junk????????because it was value for money.toyota nad honda are certainly not value for money against mahindra and tata and maruti.

you could have bought a tata or a mahindra instead of the Sonata. then maybe you would have got that new sonata from the tata's stable which can beat an accord or a camry instead of hyundai.

the above is the reason why you should buy an Indian car. A royal enfield is not completely problem free and maintainence free but there is a different charm to owning it. Same goes for mahindra nad tata. there is a raw appeal to these cars even with all the problems.

Indian cars may not be as good in finish as the japanese or the european but they certainly are reliable and built to last and cost much less for the same reason. Hence they are more affordable.period.

they atleast dont charge a premium for an inferior product and bank on their brand name as Honda and toyota do.

the toyota qualis dye that Toyota India bought cost them almost nothing considering it was a 20 year old model. Toyota could easily have priced it in tata sumos category. I consider that competition. What toyota did was cheating when they priced it at 7 lakhs.

about the recalls let me remind you that tata recalled the sumos and other MUV's when they had a tyre wear problem and the problem was rectified free of cost. My friend has a >7 years old tata sumo which still runs excellent considering it has a diesel engine which has run more than 4,00,000 kms . Tata's cars are built to last. period.


Regardgin using bsnl mobile. Atleast in Ahmedabad BSNL mobile has been a complete sold out. They are not offering any new connections even when people want them .Bsnl has sold so much that demand is double than the supply.

[tsk1979]

I find it funny when people compare TATA/Mahindra to Honda/Toyota/GM/Ford.
Tata has been building cars for approx 10 years(If you include the Estate,Sierra). The other companies are at it since more than half a century and since 100 years in case of americans. With so much expirience to bank upon they still do not offer the VFM which TATA gives. TATA experimented on their customers, but Ford/GM etc., are no different. You will see innumerable stories from 1970s where their cars had exploding problems on rear impacts etc., etc.,
When the TATA indica came way back in 1997(or 98?) at that time there was no competition. Still tata put in side impact beams and safety feature unheard of in the maruti zen etc.,. Even if Tata had not put in side impact beams indica would have sold.

[rkg]

well said TSK1979
i have posted a news report earlier in this forum regarding the recall by Toyota( world record of 1.41 million cars) if car maker with the experiance and expertise of toyota has to recall so many of them in 2004-05 expecting a world class product from TATA and mahindra is illogical. as u said TATA has braught not only side impact beams , they also added collapsible steering column which is first in india in that class of cars. furhther the point of about VFM is OPT. TATA is not pricing products very highly compared to other car makers in india esp Hyundai's and toyota, honda. if one comparing tata with honda on quality the should also compare the price of that quality. which car maker in india is offering mid size sedan with leather seats, VCD player with two LCD screens, fog lamps etc for 6 Lakhs. if tata is to charge what is hondaor toyota is charging for their cars, they too can provide much better quality, esp if one considers the fact that one of the main complaint about tata is cheap interiors. these can be easily upgrade as tata has shown with indigo SX

[raajks]

Suggestion --
Test drive the Scorpio
-> It has poor leg space
-> Handling is not very responsive, You are bound to find is unsatisfying in comparison to an Innova

Another point
Because you stay in Bangalore, You might find it difficult to move Innova in the city roads

In chennai, One of my very good friends owns a Scorpio. It has been more than 1.5 yrs now. There have been no issues with rattling noises or other issues

He does spend regularly on servicing though.

Your maintenance cost would go on a high with Scorpio.

From what I know about Toyota. They have added a lot of control systems on the Innova
and the platform that it has been built is similar to that of the Toyota Hilux pick up truck.

Engine is state of the art.

There a lot of Plus points on the Innova. Except it huge structure that could pose an issue in city roads

[adya33]

Originally Posted by tsk

I find it funny when people compare TATA/Mahindra to Honda/Toyota/GM/Ford.
Tata has been building cars for approx 10 years(If you include the Estate,Sierra). The other companies are at it since more than half a century and since 100 years in case of americans. With so much expirience to bank upon they still do not offer the VFM which TATA gives. TATA experimented on their customers, but Ford/GM etc., are no different. You will see innumerable stories from 1970s where their cars had exploding problems on rear impacts etc., etc.,

It doesn't matter how many years company is selling cars
because customer is not looking at car makers history (execpt very few) he is looking at products one to one end of story

[hkollar]

[quote=devarshi84]One of the neighbours of ours has a indica v2 and he recently got an indigo.

Try checking any of the Indica V1 consumers... V2 was a rectified product, and it is a well known fact. But, guys who were short changed were the original guys who trusted Tatas.

If you don't mind me asking - Which car(s) do you own?? I am still an owner of Indica V1 Petrol of 2000 vintage. Gives me some perspective of what the ownership of this product is like. May be you've had a different experience? A lot of V2 customers have told me it is a different experience. But that doesn't make me any less bitter about my experience with Tatas... (Read my Post in "protest against Tata Motors" thread).

Tata products are certainly great value for money, provided you don't mind niggling problems.

Indian cars may not be as good in finish as the japanese or the european but they certainly are reliable and built to last and cost much less for the same reason. Hence they are more affordable.period.

It isn't the finish that hurts... It is the need to replace a part in exhaust every 10-15000km, suspension every 20K km. Coolant tank 3 times in 5 years.. No one can question the Long Term value or even value for money Tata's provide. My only point is - it doesn't provide peace of mind, and I had to take it to garage every 6months after 3rd year, for some fix or the other. None of the cars i own (or have owned) have given such trouble. In fact a maruti 800 which was with me for 8 years didn't need as much maintenance.


>they atleast dont charge a premium for an inferior product and >bank on their brand name as Honda and toyota do.

Tata's don't charge what Honda/Toyota do, because they provide cheap quality and bad service. Honda/Toyota have built a brand name, because if they know there is a design problem in a car they'll recall the cars and fix the problem. They wont' allow their brand image to suffer. And that sorta thing costs.

[hkollar]

Because you stay in Bangalore, You might find it difficult to move Innova in the city roads

Bought an Innova two weeks back, and have driven around bangalore about 700km now. I have found it only a bit more difficult to drive than the Indica - Basically due to the length. When you are backing up, parking or turning in narrow roads, the size of Innova hits you. You may not fit into regular parking slots.

Otherwise - its so smooth. You don't feel the size at all.

Engine is state of the art.

I found the engine a lot smoother than other CRDI diesels. Including the Skoda...

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by hkollar

I found the engine a lot smoother than other CRDI diesels. Including the Skoda...

Skoda not CRDi. If they'd offered CRDi I suppose it would cost the same as the C Class...

[devarshi84]

Originally Posted by hkollar

Try checking any of the Indica V1 consumers... V2 was a rectified product, and it is a well known fact. But, guys who were short changed were the original guys who trusted Tatas.

If you don't mind me asking - Which car(s) do you own?? I am still an owner of Indica V1 Petrol of 2000 vintage. Gives me some perspective of what the ownership of this product is like. May be you've had a different experience? A lot of V2 customers have told me it is a different experience. But that doesn't make me any less bitter about my experience with Tatas... (Read my Post in "protest against Tata Motors" thread).

Tata products are certainly great value for money, provided you don't mind niggling problems.

[B

Indian cars may not be as good in finish as the japanese or the european but they certainly are reliable and built to last and cost much less for the same reason. Hence they are more affordable[/b].period.

It isn't the finish that hurts... It is the need to replace a part in exhaust every 10-15000km, suspension every 20K km. Coolant tank 3 times in 5 years.. No one can question the Long Term value or even value for money Tata's provide. My only point is - it doesn't provide peace of mind, and I had to take it to garage every 6months after 3rd year, for some fix or the other. None of the cars i own (or have owned) have given such trouble. In fact a maruti 800 which was with me for 8 years didn't need as much maintenance.


>they atleast dont charge a premium for an inferior product and >bank on their brand name as Honda and toyota do.

Tata's don't charge what Honda/Toyota do, because they provide cheap quality and bad service. Honda/Toyota have built a brand name, because if they know there is a design problem in a car they'll recall the cars and fix the problem. They wont' allow their brand image to suffer. And that sorta thing costs.

compare toyota qualis and toyota innova upgrade to the indica v1 and v2.

you got the qualis coz toyota wanted money quickly and hence innova was launched late even when they could have in the first place.

you got the v2 as soon as tata was able to improve on the v1 and gave you v2. Even they need money but they are not the kind od thiefs the toyota people are.

FYI tata has improved a lot in the recent year and makes for the third larger car manufacturer in India. They export cars to be sold as Rover in UK. They within 10 years made their own petrol engine which is really too powerful(should have debuted in a indigo sports) Yes true that the service quality needs a lot to be desired but they are among the fastest improving auto majors in India.

Even the corolla is built to price. Ask many of the corolla owners who have had those large bills you are talking about on your Indica. ANd please keep in mind that this is a 10lakh car which is supposed to be reliable and safe.

[Ajay]

Originally Posted by devarshi84

compare toyota qualis and toyota innova upgrade to the indica v1 and v2.

you got the qualis coz toyota wanted money quickly and hence innova was launched late even when they could have in the first place.

you got the v2 as soon as tata was able to improve on the v1 and gave you v2. Even they need money but they are not the kind od thiefs the toyota people are.

FYI tata has improved a lot in the recent year and makes for the third larger car manufacturer in India. They export cars to be sold as Rover in UK. They within 10 years made their own petrol engine which is really too powerful(should have debuted in a indigo sports) Yes true that the service quality needs a lot to be desired but they are among the fastest improving auto majors in India.

Even the corolla is built to price. Ask many of the corolla owners who have had those large bills you are talking about on your Indica. ANd please keep in mind that this is a 10lakh car which is supposed to be reliable and safe.

-It is not at all fair to compare Toyota with Tata on the Reliability front.
Why do you think Toyota sells so many cars around the world??Is it only coz it has a big history as a car maker?
hyundai offers exceptional warranty on the cars they sell whereas Toyota doesn't offer a smiliar one. But still Toyota does sell more car than Hyundai.
Yes, tata surely is improving on the Quality front but the fact still remains that Tata does most of bug fixes on the product after it has been released.







Have driven the new indica v2 in bangalore. With the a/c on, even Autorickshaws' running on full loads do tend to overtake you.I dont find that funny esp when Tata charges 4+lac Rs for the Indica.Take a look at the niggling problems.
Qualis might have been an aged model but it sure did not have so many nigling problems.

[devarshi84]

Originally Posted by Ajay

-It is not at all fair to compare Toyota with Tata on the Reliability front.
Why do you think Toyota sells so many cars around the world??Is it only coz it has a big history as a car maker?
hyundai offers exceptional warranty on the cars they sell whereas Toyota doesn't offer a smiliar one. But still Toyota does sell more car than Hyundai.
Yes, tata surely is improving on the Quality front but the fact still remains that Tata does most of bug fixes on the product after it has been released.







Have driven the new indica v2 in bangalore. With the a/c on, even Autorickshaws' running on full loads do tend to overtake you.I dont find that funny esp when Tata charges 4+lac Rs for the Indica.Take a look at the niggling problems.
Qualis might have been an aged model but it sure did not have so many nigling problems.

Well considering tata is a new company it beats toyota in India at present and thats wat matters.

tata does most of the bug fixes after releasing the car coz tata is not the only company to do so. Each and every company manufacturing car at present has had car recalls and bug fixes, May it be Honda,toyota,mitsubishi,nissan,ford,GM,BMW or whichever.

we are not talking about quality but reliability. There will be people driving a tata or a mahindra after 10years also but I doubt the same with a toyota.

Well If I believe in what you said about the pickup of Indica V2 then why are so many Indiaca's selling?????tell this to the Indica v2owners. I dont own one but I have test driven one and I will say your statement is purely an exxageration.

Secondly about comparing toyota and tata. tata sells indica for 4lacs but toyota sold qualis for 8 lakhs. Indica is just 4-5 years old while qualis is more than 20 years old. if qualis would have had niggling problems I will say toyota should shut down their factories and sit at home. If Indica sells for 25 years then even Indica wont have any niggling problems. look at the 20 year old maruti 800 and tell me if it has any niggling problems.

A 4 years old Indica platform car sells for 4 lacs. A 20 year old maruti 800 platform car sells for 2lacs then why is a more than 20 year old qualis selling for a huge 7lacs? Shouldnt it be in competition to the tata sumo???

[spdfreak]

i would go for the innova if i were you. great interiors, great pickup and handling. even the service intervals are far stretched apart. would cost less than servicing the qualis.