[arunkk]

Originally Posted by neoonwheels

Main reason as somebody has pointed out is the problem of sharing the same showroom with a low cost same segment vehicle. Punto is sandwiched between Vista and Manza. We Indians always look for sedan if it is available at the hatchback price no matter how comfortable and convenient the hatchback is. So most of the customers are either end up buying low cost Vista or almost same cost Manza instead of Punto. Linea is still better placed because of its priced higher than Manza and there is nothing from TATA above Linea in sedan market.

I cannot understand this logic too. Informed buyers today visit every brand showroom and check the cars before narrowing down on one. What if the Fiat & Tata had different showrooms? A buyer will still feel the same after checking out both. The only difference now is instead of travelling to two different showrooms, a prospective buyer gets to see both the cars in the same showroom.

People say soo much about interiors and losing customers to Indica given the better interior plastics. How about exteriors? I think an un-informed car buyer who just see the car from the showroom and takes a decision will be more attracted towards the gorgeous looks of Fiat cars. And how many of the general public get into a car and check under the steering & key hole to see major panel gaps?

[MihirC]

I couldnt agree more with you Arun. Im driving a 95 zen at the moment. Assuming I go to the TATA showroom to check out cars as a layman, looks wise Punto is what will attract me. Sitting in the car if I see that ohh it has F/R power windows, power steering , seat /steering adjust etc i ll be simply blown away considering my Zen has none of these features , not even central locking. I dont think I ll be bending over to look at the panel gaps and the plastic quality.

Further I ll do the same with the Vista , decide which one I like better and go ahead and buy it. If both the cars are in one showroom its better , if they are in different showrooms then Ill have to trave more but thats it.

If I like a Vista there is no way I ll go for a Punto and Vice Versa.An average customer has way too many other things in his head to think about panel gaps or the grain size of the soft feel surface on the previous model and this .

[neoonwheels]

Originally Posted by arunkk

I cannot understand this logic too. Informed buyers today visit every brand showroom and check the cars before narrowing down on one. What if the Fiat & Tata had different showrooms? A buyer will still feel the same after checking out both. The only difference now is instead of travelling to two different showrooms, a prospective buyer gets to see both the cars in the same showroom.

People say soo much about interiors and losing customers to Indica given the better interior plastics. How about exteriors? I think an un-informed car buyer who just see the car from the showroom and takes a decision will be more attracted towards the gorgeous looks of Fiat cars. And how many of the general public get into a car and check under the steering & key hole to see major panel gaps?

Unfortunately in India, the % of informed buyers is still < 30-40%. India still has the herd mentality. You agree to it or not. Visit a TATA showroom. have a look at the Punto and then casually mention Manza/Vista. You would be surprised at a good response from them and then the eagerness to sell the TATA car. I went through it but then i was hell bent on Punto so did not alter my opinion. I know what a FIAT is and thoroughly love it.

Originally Posted by suman

Bingo!!


The point is, FIAT knew exactly what they were getting into when they signed the JV. The partnership has also helped boost their numbers. So what is stopping them from voicing their concerns (if any) to TATA & getting them addressed?

Its not that they are babes in the woods as far as India is concerned?

FIAT had a little choice when they entered into the JV. I agree FIAT and TATA both have invested 2000 crores each into RJ plant, but then, on other hand, TATA has got MJD tech, FIRE tech and then a plant to share the work load. Does it sound interesting enough? On the other hand, TATA opened the vendor channel for FIAT (Which I personally think is utter rubbish looking at part quality to keep costs low) and then dealer network in which TATA has negligible investment.

Sales is driven by TATA, how many times you get to see promotional ads on TV/paper about FIATs? How many times you have seen FIAT commercial showcasing Linea/Punto in a better way? All said and done. FIAT is better with a new sales channel. This is my personal opinion. To each his own

[anmol2k4]

Originally Posted by neoonwheels

Otherwise, if FIAT management does not voice their concern, TATA is happy milking FIAT with their technology and earn profits selling their own products with superior technology.

We are going on and on and on about how Fiat is losing sales to Tata, how Tata is exploiting the situation, how Tata is happy "milking Fiat". How disastrous is the current arrangement where Fiat vehicles are sandwiched between Tata's more VFM vehicles.

Do I need to remind people that quadrajet Manza, Vista, Punto and Linea are ALL PRODUCED AT Tata-Fiat plant at Ranjangaon.

That is a 50:50 JV, Fiat makes money even if they lose sales to a Indica Vista or Manza as long as both cars are using Fiat engines.

When they were on their own with their own independent infrastructure they managed to dig themselves into ground. Now they get to make profit on the sales of not just Grande Punto, Linea but also Manza and Indica Vista.

So this argument that Tata is "milking Fiat" is fallacious and downright stupid. In fact I would argue that it is the other way around, that Fiat is milking Tata because they are profiting from the sales of some very successful products like Vista and Manza.

[neoonwheels]

Originally Posted by anmol2k4

We are going on and on and on about how Fiat is losing sales to Tata, how Tata is exploiting the situation, how Tata is happy "milking Fiat". How disastrous is the current arrangement where Fiat vehicles are sandwiched between Tata's more VFM vehicles.

Do I need to remind people that quadrajet Manza, Vista, Punto and Linea are ALL PRODUCED AT Tata-Fiat plant at Ranjangaon.

That is a 50:50 JV, Fiat makes money even if they lose sales to a Indica Vista or Manza as long as both cars are using Fiat engines.

When they were on their own with their own independent infrastructure they managed to dig themselves into ground. Now they get to make profit on the sales of not just Grande Punto, Linea but also Manza and Indica Vista.

So this argument that Tata is "milking Fiat" is fallacious and downright stupid. In fact I would argue that it is the other way around, that Fiat is milking Tata because they are profiting from the sales of some very successful products like Vista and Manza.

I guess Vista is produced at Pimpri plant and Manza is produced at RJ plant. Profit on engine and profit on car is different. Otherwise FIAT would be happier selling engine to TATA and Maruti instead of investing 2000 Cr here in a plant right?

A simple example, Why Amul sells dairy products and not alone milk? Get the logic. Selling engine is not FIAT here for. Engine OEM to Suzuki was to recover the investment quicker than to be happy only doing it. Sharing technology and buying it are 2 different things.

On a lighter note, I hope TATA would open up JLR tech to FIAT for its European market. Specially the rear wheel drive system.

EDIT: BTW, soon TATA would get MultiAir technology as well. Think about the money inseting for RnD od such technology for years together. I hope now you can understand, why I said "milking FIAT for technology"

[anmol2k4]

Originally Posted by neoonwheels

I guess Vista is produced at Pimpri plant and Manza is produced at RJ plant. Profit on engine and profit on car is different. Otherwise FIAT would be happier selling engine to TATA and Maruti instead of investing 2000 Cr here in a plant right?

A simple example, Why Amul sells dairy products and not alone milk? Get the logic. Selling engine is not FIAT here for. Engine OEM to Suzuki was to recover the investment quicker than to be happy only doing it. Sharing technology and buying it are 2 different things.

On a lighter note, I hope TATA would open up JLR tech to FIAT for its European market. Specially the rear wheel drive system.

EDIT: BTW, soon TATA would get MultiAir technology as well. Think about the money inseting for RnD od such technology for years together. I hope now you can understand, why I said "milking FIAT for technology"

You are guessing wrong **, both Vista and Manza are manufactured at Ranjangaon plant (ones which have fiat engines), and both companies make money on all the vehicles manufactured there.

Also, Fiat willingly and happily sells its engines and licenses for its use and they get PAID for it. They sell their engines or license to manufacture the engines to Tata, GM, Suzuki, Opel, Ford, Cadillac, Saab, Vauxhall and others.

This is part of their business model, and as long as they get paid for their engines and don't gift their technology to Tata, GM, Suzuki, Opel, Ford, Cadillac, Saab, Vauxhall no one is milking Fiat.

Hence the phrase you used "milking FIAT for technology", is invalid.



**source for Indica Vista being manufactured at Ranjangaon plant: http://living.oneindia.in/automobile...ta-270808.html
**source for Indigo Manza being manufactured at Ranjangaon plant: http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/...1550710300.htm

Both sources have quote directly from Rajiv Dube.

[samsan02]

Source:

Tata-Fiat joint venture to break even by 2011-12 - Corporate News - livemint.com

An old link, where it says that its a joint venture. Makes a good read.

As part of the joint venture agreement, signed in December 2007, Fiat and Tata Motors had set aside an investment of Rs 4,000 crore for a new facility in Ranjangaon, near Pune, to make Fiat and Tata cars and engines.
The Ranjangaon unit, which has the capacity to make 160,000 cars and 300,000 engines, is producing the Fiat Palio, Stile and Linea models and select Tata Indica models. The X1, which would compete with Maruti Suzuki India Ltd’s Dzire, would be the first so-called new generation car from Tata Motors that would be manufactured in the facility.

X1 is the Manza, so their JV benefits not just Tata or Fiat.

Fiat has been known in India more for the Premier Padmini, based on the Fiat 1100, that the Doshis of Premier Automobiles Ltd manufactured for four decades starting in the 1950s. In Mumbai, black-and-yellow Premier Padminis are still the most popular taxis.

Fiat, which has had a chequered history in India, had almost decided to quit the market but for Fiat chief executive officer Sergio Marchionne and Tata group chairman Ratan Tata coming together in 2005, Kapoor said.
“Such was the level of confidence among both the partners that investments began at least two years before even a formal agreement was signed,” he said.

Source:
http://www.content4reprint.com/cars-...s-and-fiat.htm

Tata Nano to be launched in Europe in partnership with Fiat
Now Nano is preparing to drive in Latin America. And yes, you got it right; it is the handiwork of Fiat. The much-talked about Nano will be launched in Latin America in partnership with Fiat. Ratan Tata informed Nano has passed the crash tests for European safety standards and will launched in Europe in 2011.

[MihirC]

A bit ot here but its just weird how everyone except Mr.Sergio Marchionne realises that FIAT is getting the lesser benefit from the JV with TATA. Someone needs to tell that to him, that poor gentleman has got no understanding of how to do business

[kiren]

If i am not mistaken FIAT uses only a selected few Tata dealers & service centres as their showrooms & service centres. Doing so they could have taken efforts to get maximum sales & better service out of these units. When they were aware that their sales & service had let them down, they should have taken sufficient preventive action. Why blame Tata for their failures?


Sorry : Why Stile is under a company New Holland Fiat (India) Pvt.Ltd. & Punto/Linea Under a different company Fiat India Automobiles Ltd.?

[devarshi84]

Smells fishy. Fiat has done considerably well and since Their plants and engines are used by tata and Maruti there is no chance for them to be in red.

They sure could have done well but then Fiat interiors and A.S.S isnt exactly at par with competition. What TATA offers is good for low-mid end. One cannot compare the experience vis-a-vis Toyota/Volkswagen/Honda/Mitsubishi dealership. The salemen hardly know anything about the cars they are selling.

Tata perceives Fiat brand as a premium brand but they havent handled it the same way. Fiat has sold mainly because of the nostalgia people had for it and secondly because of good products.

What Fiat needs is atleast one dedicated showroom in the top 20 cities. Look how sales jump then.

[Santy]

Thane wagle estate showroom might not be a FIAT dealer

Originally Posted by ghodlur

I remember when I was planning for a sedan in the late 2009 and wanted to enquire about the Linea. Had visited a TATA Showroom in Thane, Wagle Estate. There was least effort by the salesman to show me the Linea, rather they were interested in promoting the newly launched Manza. Inspite of my waiting for 1/2 hr for Linea TD, I was not given one. Later again after few day when I visited the showroom for Manza TD, I was immeiately attended by Salesmen.

This goes to show that TATA's are least bothered with FIAT sales and may have entered into the partnership just to get the technological knowhow. I think once Nano production ramps up I would not be surprised if the alliance is called off.

[neoonwheels]

There is no failure per say. Its only about selling more than what they are doing right now. More so about improving. FIAT had such horrible performance before 2008 that even couple of thousand cars make it look like a grand success

@anmol2k4: I told you about why FIAT is not here to sell ONLY engines, which somehow you said in your earlier post which I quoted earlier. Companies doing OEMs is no rocket science. Everybody does that to keep a healthy inflow. I am not sure if TATA is paying them any royalty for MJDs used in TATA cars as we dont know if FIAT is paying TATA for sales and support.

So for me, TATA is getting technology for sharing the sales and support channel. Now as TATA dealers are not able to sell FIAT cars (FIAT has nothing to do with sales as of now. They are only bothered about manufacturing) be it horrible cars/pathetic plastic quality/poor margins, FIAT is at loss. This is why I said they are milking FIAT.

Everybody is entitled to his own opinion so do I. If I have hurt you in anyway, sorry for that. BTW I did not get when you used ** in your following line: You are guessing wrong **.

[vsk2009]

I think Fiat's problem is its plastic quality, Fit and finish. Cars like i20 and Jazz had given a benchmark for interior quality and finish for 6+ L . How many of the buyers care for driving dynamics,handling etc?

Is the JV responsible for poor quality of fit and finish.
Does the Punto selling in Europe has the same it and finish and plastic quality. I didn't find any discussion on it in this forum(I might have missed it).

If punto comes(in future) with same quality of interiors as jazz. Where they will place it?

[nishant_242]

FIAT-TATA have a Joint Venture agreement in India to produce cars. This means that both Fiat and Tata make/share profits by selling the cars produced in the Ranjangaon plant. So for Fiat vehicle sold Tata also makes a profit, and I see no reason for Tata not being interested in selling Fiat cars. This has been said many times that the Indian car market is taking off in a big way and there is space for many players specially in the B & C segment.

The partnership has the potential to benefit both the car makers.
Tata - They get the world class engines and manufacturing techniques from Fiat, thereby overcoming their major disadvantages.
Fiat - They get a ready access in one of the fastest growing automobile markets in the world. They would have saved costs significantly through the JV - Distribution, ***. Most importantly they have garnered trust of the people by partnering with one of the most trusted brands in India. It also provides a ready platform for launching their other brands in India, which includes Alfa Romeo and Ferrari.

Also the trend in the automobile market today is of consolidation and partnership -
VW buying 20 % of Suzuki
Renault Nissan partnering with Dailmer to work on common technologies
So summarizing the JV makes complete sense and we will ourselves see the positive results in the near future.
Just wait & watch

[prince_pervez]

^^ I'd agree what has been said here, but, I would also agree that TATA has the upper hand on the JV and once FIAT moves out independantly they will do a better job than what they are doing now.