[HPP]

Originally Posted by ported_head

New thread created. Kindly continue discussions here.

HPP, if you wish to change the title, let me know.

Thank you for doing this. And I can't think of a better title, good enough for me.

[f450]

Forgot the main point: What about permission from the Government/Police?

Btw, not trying to discourage you or anything. So don't take it the wrong way. I'm only pointing out holes that need to be patched up before you undertake the project.

[HPP]

Originally Posted by f450

Also (again, not to be a pessimist) but I do hope you're planning to start this project after a couple of years and not now. What with the difficulty of getting a bank loan and people reluctant to spend large amounts on recreation and outings. In short, after recession.

Agreed timing is key. I've been watching the market for a while and recently is the first time I thought the discussion about this kind of thing was even reasonable. The planning and development of a project like this is likely to take some time as it is, so your time estimate is about right(if we start relatively soon).

Originally Posted by f450

Restaurant/Eatery/Food court is an absolute must from the beginning. a) People expect to have something to eat especially that far from the city. b) Restaurants mint money

I'm sure a food court is reasonable to implement from the beginning, considering the overall investment as it is.

Originally Posted by f450

Go-kart track is a large investment. Go-karts + cement track +drivers etc. So it's a better idea to decide which one you want to do first, and gradually start the other with profits from the first.

Food first for sure. Go karts would be secondary and on the wish list for the future.

Originally Posted by f450

From DKG's points, adventure activities (I assume he meant rock climbing etc.) and foodcourt are very viable, maybe even necessary. The rest, as he said, can be added gradually.

Agreed

Originally Posted by f450

What are these other features? I have a feeling I might be thinking of the same thing

I'd like to keep that under wraps for now, but it may be a second round in regards to development and timing. But I can say it is aimed solely at the well off customer/"member".. hint..

Originally Posted by f450

One per city is fairly reasonable. Tracks from different cities won't intrude into each other's markets as much. In fact, if you have a collaboration with them, you can even stage tournaments etc. together.

That is a good idea. Band together and develop the market nationally rather then fight each other and hurt the market.

Originally Posted by f450

Like I said, a dragstrip is not very sellable. Not to me atleast. Why would I pay you (suppose) Rs. 500 to race on a straight road with my friend when I can do the exact same thing in Jubilee Hills or Raj Bhavan road or Hitec City? Just for a timing?

Well like most cities/countries it's inevitable for tragic accidents to start happening and for it to get the attention of the government and police. At that point you start to look at "legal" forms of getting your fun. I know street racing will always happen no matter where you are on this earth, but there is also a need/market for those who would also like to do what they love in a "safe" and legal environment.

Originally Posted by f450

Road course won't be as expensive as you think. Especially a regular (not cement) one. Incorporating dragstrip (as you said) is a much more viable option, don't you think?

Well I'd disagree there. The amount of work the land will need and the sheer size/length of the road course will add immense investment. Proper road course design will also come into play. So it will get more complicated and labor intensive overall to add the road course from the get go.

Originally Posted by f450

Also, consider your main requirement. Cars. If my friends and I want to come to this place outside the city, more often than not, we'll come in one car. Then what? What do I race against? My friend is nervous about wrecking/spoiling his car. Then what?

Honestly, people who are nervous for one reason or another will not be our target market. Spectators will earn us a little money for entrance, and maybe some at the food court. The reasoning for being there is the cars and the people who want to use them to their fullest potential.

Originally Posted by f450

Providing race cars will significantly increase investment but will also make it more marketable. The ultimate goal IMO would be to make this an F1/NASCAR type place which is open to general public.

This is doable, but it would have to be something in stage 2 or 3. And would only make sense in conjunction with the building of a road course.

Originally Posted by f450

Forgot the main point: What about permission from the Government/Police?

That can be dealt with, it just takes time.

[HPP]

Originally Posted by f450

Btw, not trying to discourage you or anything. So don't take it the wrong way. I'm only pointing out holes that need to be patched up before you undertake the project.

Not taken the wrong way at all. This is what I had in mind and hoped would happen. It is always good to get everyones opinions to flush out all the different viewpoints and pros and cons. It is difficult to do alone.

[f450]

Originally Posted by HPP

Food first for sure. Go karts would be secondary and on the wish list for the future.

I didn't mean choice between go-karts and food. I meant go-karts and cars.

Originally Posted by HPP

I'd like to keep that under wraps for now, but it may be a second round in regards to development and timing. But I can say it is aimed solely at the well off customer/"member".. hint..

That's a very smart idea. Maybe also something for frequent customers?

Originally Posted by HPP

That is a good idea. Band together and develop the market nationally rather then fight each other and hurt the market.

Just a thought, what if they were involved right from the beginning? Their expertise and investment can help improving quality of your project. Your capital (land) + your capital (money) +their capital (money) + their expertise is definitely a better option. They need you for your land too, so you might be able to sell it to them.

Originally Posted by HPP

Well like most cities/countries it's inevitable for tragic accidents to start happening and for it to get the attention of the government and police. At that point you start to look at "legal" forms of getting your fun. I know street racing will always happen no matter where you are on this earth, but there is also a need/market for those who would also like to do what they love in a "safe" and legal environment.

Agree with all points.

Originally Posted by HPP

Well I'd disagree there. The amount of work the land will need and the sheer size/length of the road course will add immense investment. Proper road course design will also come into play. So it will get more complicated and labor intensive overall to add the road course from the get go.

Does your land have lots of rocks/unlevel land? Either way, laying a road around the unlevel ground to create turns and/or using unlevel ground to create slopes is an idea. Laying the road will be the only investment (unless I'm missing something) IMO.

Originally Posted by HPP

Honestly, people who are nervous for one reason or another will not be our target market. Spectators will earn us a little money for entrance, and maybe some at the food court. The reasoning for being there is the cars and the people who want to use them to their fullest potential.

If you eliminate people who are worried about cars also, you're effectively eliminating most middle class enthusiasts. Your only market will then be 18-28 year old upper class people. But still, it's workable.

But what about coming that far in one car only?

The market would boom if you somehow found a way to include 15-18 year olds. These days, the most frequent racers on the roads are of that age group. They're also the most jobless people, so they'll be regulars as well. Also, because they can do it legally, they'll come in droves

[HPP]

Originally Posted by f450

I didn't mean choice between go-karts and food. I meant go-karts and cars.

Ah, I see. It would be cars for now and go-karts down the line.

Originally Posted by f450

That's a very smart idea. Maybe also something for frequent customers?

Yes, definitely a frequent customer program.

Originally Posted by f450

Just a thought, what if they were involved right from the beginning? Their expertise and investment can help improving quality of your project. Your capital (land) + your capital (money) +their capital (money) + their expertise is definitely a better option. They need you for your land too, so you might be able to sell it to them.

That is a good idea. Does anyone have any info on the group planning something near Bangalore?

Originally Posted by f450

Does your land have lots of rocks/unlevel land? Either way, laying a road around the unlevel ground to create turns and/or using unlevel ground to create slopes is an idea. Laying the road will be the only investment (unless I'm missing something) IMO.

Yeah, there is a decent amount of land grooming in order to make a track with smooth progressions regarding elevation changes, and also with regard to smooth turns which make sense in regards to "racing lines" etc. Our land does have a decent amount of rocks, pits and general shrubbery similar to most land outside the city area. So to make perfect surfaces in order to lay pavement is a huge task in itself(no matter where in the world you are making a race track).

Originally Posted by f450

If you eliminate people who are worried about cars also, you're effectively eliminating most middle class enthusiasts. Your only market will then be 18-28 year old upper class people. But still, it's workable.

That is pretty much the case worldwide.

But what about coming that far in one car only?[/quote]

Again, this is a choice and risk people take worldwide. If you come in one car and want to drive it on the track, you run the risk of something happening to the car. You would be able to leave your car there and arrange for it to be picked up or whatever..

Generally, I'd say less then 1% of people worldwide who go to road courses recreationally drive "rented" or cars that aren't their own.

Originally Posted by f450

The market would boom if you somehow found a way to include 15-18 year olds. These days, the most frequent racers on the roads are of that age group. They're also the most jobless people, so they'll be regulars as well. Also, because they can do it legally, they'll come in droves

Well you can have fun on a road course in just about anything. So it would probably create a culture of kids who modify their cars however they can on whatever budget they can come up with. A lot of kids around the world get jobs specifically to fund their car habits and spend all their money their niche of the sport. It helps that most of them live with their families so they can dedicate most/all of their income to their hobby. Other then that, I don't see a way to incorporate them until or unless we get go kart going, or we can build a few rentable race cars.

[DKG]

An off road track wouldn't cost you much to start with. Create a series of obstacles, ie rock crawling, slush bogs, inlines etc. I see a situation where on weekends groups of offroaders come over with friends and family and have a ball as each one tries out their skill while friends cheer on.

Eventually your park can organise offroad expeditions as the clientele builds up. That would be awesome

You could even have some games like the paintball (forget what you call it) Imagine being able to stage a mock battle between two companies. Terrific stuff. Attack strategies and all !!! Basically you should package a series of activites for the corporates who may want to bring in staff on a day out of fun and team building. Ex army staff can put together a series of team building exercises

I feel you must start a hobby centre. It should be a one stop shop for any family who want to introduce their kids into wholesome activities.

Aeromodeling, ham radio, astronomy, mountain bikes, trekking equipment, skate boards, model building, fishing, camping gear the list is endless

Basically what I am suggesting is don't limit it to just cars. Make it a lifestyle centre. Cars/karts being a significant component of the overall packages offered. But tons more to choose from in terms of activites.

The adventure sports activities can operate from your centre where the group gathers and heads out for different destinations.

Should you feel its too many things to get into you can always sublet these activities as the infra structure is yours.

Just thinking aloud

An ice skating rink is invariably a hit with families

Oh and also camping trips that you can organise. Boy I can go on and on and on

A little adventure and fun for all. So while Daddy burns rubber on the drag Mummy and the kids can try out ice skating or some other activity. Hey wait times are a changing. You might have girls freaking out on the drag while the boys keep kids busy on ice

[anurag_p80]

Very interesting. Can we put some numbers on this? Specially on the investment side. What are the costs to get started. Some of the heads I can think of:
Land
Building/ Construction
Expertise
Gear/ Infrastructure (Tech, timing equipment etc.)
Manpower
Licenses/ Permits etc.

Anything else? HPP, have started putting any numbers to these things yet?
Another thing, none of these seem fungible to me, that is to say that all of this will be required all over again if another revenue stream is to be created. Anything where the original investment, whether in a dragstrip or off-road track or karting track, can be reused at least partially?

[kutlee]

Project started as drag strip and now turning to lifestyle center!!
I am imagining a scence where all of the boys who turned out for deccan drag race turns up for weekend fun at this center. will that be the entire croud of driving fans in Hyd. possibily yes. the crowd is big. if all of them turn on since evening, good business.
if 20% of them turn up every weekend, assuming the 20% share keeps changing and you see new faces every weekend?
Then one the cycle is over, what happens next.
food court is an attraction. but then people will have just the food and walk away.
the boy racer/jeep enthusiasts popluation is quite limited and hardly grows.
you should expect repear customers. othewise i see a bleak chance of sucess.
It won't be anything like prasadz/central where people just do window shopping etc.
I don't see any particualr attraction.
I think you intend to keep the main business focus as drag strip. If this is the scene, possibly a club of tuners/accessory specialists can attract population. This may get new customers.
A hobby group is a nice idea. but loosing foucs on main business.
Drag events etc are not even half mature as they are in developed countries. So needs a lot of promotional activites to keep it going.
Just imagine car breaking down on an evening and cannot get it repaired? i won't take it again, if cannot get it reparied there. So needs an equipped pit for servicing.
Just a few thoughts!!

[HPP]

Originally Posted by DKG

An off road track wouldn't cost you much to start with. Create a series of obstacles, ie rock crawling, slush bogs, inlines etc. I see a situation where on weekends groups of offroaders come over with friends and family and have a ball as each one tries out their skill while friends cheer on.

Eventually your park can organise offroad expeditions as the clientele builds up. That would be awesome

You could even have some games like the paintball (forget what you call it) Imagine being able to stage a mock battle between two companies. Terrific stuff. Attack strategies and all !!! Basically you should package a series of activites for the corporates who may want to bring in staff on a day out of fun and team building. Ex army staff can put together a series of team building exercises

I feel you must start a hobby centre. It should be a one stop shop for any family who want to introduce their kids into wholesome activities.

Aeromodeling, ham radio, astronomy, mountain bikes, trekking equipment, skate boards, model building, fishing, camping gear the list is endless

Basically what I am suggesting is don't limit it to just cars. Make it a lifestyle centre. Cars/karts being a significant component of the overall packages offered. But tons more to choose from in terms of activites.

The adventure sports activities can operate from your centre where the group gathers and heads out for different destinations.

Should you feel its too many things to get into you can always sublet these activities as the infra structure is yours.

Just thinking aloud

An ice skating rink is invariably a hit with families

Oh and also camping trips that you can organise. Boy I can go on and on and on

A little adventure and fun for all. So while Daddy burns rubber on the drag Mummy and the kids can try out ice skating or some other activity. Hey wait times are a changing. You might have girls freaking out on the drag while the boys keep kids busy on ice

All very good ideas. I'd guess some of it would be relatively easy to implement from the beginning and some can phase in over time. I forgot about the off roading, as you said, that can be right from the beginning fairly easily.

Originally Posted by anurag_p80

Very interesting. Can we put some numbers on this? Specially on the investment side. What are the costs to get started. Some of the heads I can think of:
Land
Building/ Construction
Expertise
Gear/ Infrastructure (Tech, timing equipment etc.)
Manpower
Licenses/ Permits etc.

Anything else? HPP, have started putting any numbers to these things yet?
Another thing, none of these seem fungible to me, that is to say that all of this will be required all over again if another revenue stream is to be created. Anything where the original investment, whether in a dragstrip or off-road track or karting track, can be reused at least partially?

I haven't put solid numbers together. Other then some basic large numbers we through around when I was talking with my relatives. Regardless, the investment is going to be sizable, thus the opportunity needs to be properly flushed out. With the right ideas, plan and implementation strategy, the possibility of larger/corporate sponsoring/funding also becomes an added option.

I'm not following the last train of thought you had(the reused part), could you explain what you meant?

Originally Posted by kutlee

Project started as drag strip and now turning to lifestyle center!!
I am imagining a scence where all of the boys who turned out for deccan drag race turns up for weekend fun at this center. will that be the entire croud of driving fans in Hyd. possibily yes. the crowd is big. if all of them turn on since evening, good business.
if 20% of them turn up every weekend, assuming the 20% share keeps changing and you see new faces every weekend?
Then one the cycle is over, what happens next.
food court is an attraction. but then people will have just the food and walk away.
the boy racer/jeep enthusiasts popluation is quite limited and hardly grows.
you should expect repear customers. othewise i see a bleak chance of sucess.
It won't be anything like prasadz/central where people just do window shopping etc.
I don't see any particualr attraction.
I think you intend to keep the main business focus as drag strip. If this is the scene, possibly a club of tuners/accessory specialists can attract population. This may get new customers.
A hobby group is a nice idea. but loosing foucs on main business.
Drag events etc are not even half mature as they are in developed countries. So needs a lot of promotional activites to keep it going.
Just imagine car breaking down on an evening and cannot get it repaired? i won't take it again, if cannot get it reparied there. So needs an equipped pit for servicing.
Just a few thoughts!!

It's inevitable with a project like this that we'd need to make full use of the land that is available in order to give ourselves a better chance of ROI. And on site speed shop/and or repair shop is definitely an option that could be available from the get go. About the cycles of people etc, that is an issue that will have to be thought of. Marketing will play a large part in making a place like this a success.

The only issue I'm worried about is the fact that is the infancy of this market in India. Like most opportunities, you don't want to be too early for a market, and you don't want to be too late to a market. We know it's not too late, but I'm not sure how to know if it's too early. Any thoughts on this?


BTW, I like the flow of this thread guys, some really good ideas and evaluation of the pros and cons of a project like this. I'm glad to see others excited and interested in the possibility of a project like this.

[DKG]

Originally Posted by HPP

The only issue I'm worried about is the fact that is the infancy of this market in India

Runway 9 seems to have worked. Perhaps you can meet the Modi's next time you are in town, or your relatives can check things out with them

[kutlee]

mm..good. runway9 is an early concept. drag/tuning is new. not even many people (including me) know (it's not that everyone knows go karting) drag. so you have a skeptical audience. go karting is taking for granted/ no expectation audience. and people ask first about the food available in runway 9 before even thinking of going there. also what percentage of people visiting runway 9 drive/owns cars.
you need to have some sort of strategic point since there is a specific target group and mid you that this group is small and not that fast growing. by the way, are you planning this in blore/hyderabad.
how about a kit car group? can everyone have a sub 1 lak kit car for drag, circuit?
i think most of the pros posted for this project come from a personal liking to see such things done. but how many are really going to visit the drag place everyweekend? i would also like to see such a drag/weekend sports track. but when it comes to business, i don't know. you may know more. just my thoughts!!

[HPP]

Originally Posted by DKG

Runway 9 seems to have worked. Perhaps you can meet the Modi's next time you are in town, or your relatives can check things out with them

Actually yes, I am/was happy see continue to see their business grow. Some of my family are regulars there. I'll have a couple of them chat with them to see what can come of it, or what advice they'd have for us.

But that other go kart track had failed. I forgot the name, but it was a pretty nice track(more technical then runway 9).

Originally Posted by kutlee

mm..good. runway9 is an early concept. drag/tuning is new. not even many people (including me) know (it's not that everyone knows go karting) drag. so you have a skeptical audience. go karting is taking for granted/ no expectation audience. and people ask first about the food available in runway 9 before even thinking of going there. also what percentage of people visiting runway 9 drive/owns cars.
you need to have some sort of strategic point since there is a specific target group and mid you that this group is small and not that fast growing. by the way, are you planning this in blore/hyderabad.
how about a kit car group? can everyone have a sub 1 lak kit car for drag, circuit?
i think most of the pros posted for this project come from a personal liking to see such things done. but how many are really going to visit the drag place everyweekend? i would also like to see such a drag/weekend sports track. but when it comes to business, i don't know. you may know more. just my thoughts!!

No, you may be exactly right. That is what I'm trying to get a feel for. We are enthusiasts who would do anything for this kind of thing to exist, but what do others feel about places like this? I see food is a must.. I'm happy about that because one of my favorite kinds of food is dhaba food.. I'd lean toward a family dhaba style place on the premises.

Drag racing would be the beginning with the real goal being a full road course. The drag strip would be the stepping stone toward the full track.

I think some strategic other activities may be the "pull" that may be needed in a new market that isn't in the habit of going to the drag strip on the weekend. I wonder how camping would go on site as well? A few of the ideas mentioned in this thread would be good to package together as a draw on top of just the car stuff. I do see as we talk about this more that the need for "other" activities will be necessary specially at the beginning of a business like this.. that is until the sport takes off.

[jassi]

wow this thread has really progressed into a full fledged discussion
the only thing I would recommend is that every car enthusiast is not a dragger, most like to drive around a track, especially if you want to attract the growing number of guys with stock imports like porsches, etc. Also a track ensures anyone with wheels can drive, even an upcoming enthusiast who can afford track days but cant afford anything more than a maruti 800
So my advise would be to eventually move from a plain drag strip to a drag strip + separate track.
Ofcourse the food joint needs to be there from day 1 and slowly other stuff for the family - gaming zones with some large displays for the kids and screening areas for F1 race enthusiasts are cheaper than building/maintaining go-kart tracks!!

[DKG]

Today a family of four going to Prasad's Imax spend nothing less than Rs 1000 on food and tickets alone. People pay for entertainment. Look at the bars/clubs around town. Is alcohol cheap? People spend if they perceive the experience as enjoyable. So if you create activities that would appeal to a family people will patronise it. Create a nice breakfast joint which also serves lunch and dinner. Something like the Hardrock cafes. I remember the one in Dubai was out in the middle of nowwhere when it opened and we all flocked to it.

Getting people to spend money is about creating experiences for them that they perceive as enjoyable. I am not suggesting the drag strip by itself would be viable. But if you combine food with a bunch of activites you just might make it viable.