[Hatari]

Originally Posted by anachronix

My bad! I was thinking a racing goes faster with advanced technologies. May be I was wrong with my assumptions

If only the FIA let them go quicker!. They are slowing cars down on safety grounds with smaller engines, aero restrictions etc. But they still gain about 2-2.5 seconds every year in lap time.

Those are the declared figures by the teams! There are allegations on RedBull that they are spending a lot more. Teams usually spend lot more than what they declare as their official expenses.

Teams never declare their spends! (Only Williams as they are a listed company) These are all industry estimates.

Not every team gets an equal share from the revenue. Not even the teams that manage to win a race from the tire lottery this year! Read about the F1 crisis back in early 2000s.

Why should every team get an equal share! The Concorde agreement defines percentage earnings for each team depending on their historical status and brand presence in F1. How can you even compare HRT and Ferrari in this regard? The other component is prize money. Teams do not necessarily need to win a race to earn prize money. It depends on where they finish in the Constructors. Caterham earned $35 million by finishing 10th last year compared to $10 million the season before.

Well...
Most complaint about the same, a greedy Bernie! Even Silverstone was not spared when Damon Hill came public accusing Bernie.

Arent all business heads? Its his job to earn more money for the sport (he gets his fair share too of course )

[Mad Max]

Quite an interesting thread!

Here's my take.

The FIA chose Pirelli the tire supplier for this season. Pirelli should have brought the "best possible" tires to the race. Instead, they have brought something that is quite unpredictable that has changed driver behavior drastically. Typically aggressive drivers have started becoming more tactical and tire degradation seems to be on top of everyone's mind.

I felt that by bringing in tires that are quite unsuitable for racing is like sticking in an older regressive component in the F1 car. I'd even compare it to drum brakes or older suspension designs!! j/k.. but you get the drift. F1 has always been the pinnacle of technology. Its the showcase of what's best and also acts as the test-bed for refining technology and components that find their way into commercial production someday. With this in mind, the tires Pirelli brought have actually not made any advancements either for the race itself, or for the larger commercial industry. And for that, both Pirelli and FIA are at fault.

OT:

As a counter-point, I also observe there is a huge drift between the purists of the sport and the general enthusiast. The purists want the sport unchanged, with top of the line advancements and all the novelty of the sport. They sneer on people who don't know the history of the sport or the legends that drove to victory. This exclusiveness typically alienates the industry more than bringing in more supporters. This happened in cricket (the people who harp on T20 being bad, Test cricket being the greatest etc) and other sports as well. But, the sport needs to change as times do.

People don't have interest in watching a sport that's dominated by a few teams year after year. When Ferrari was winning every year, people just got bored of the same. I did. Switched on the tv, saw MS storming away from the line, and the rest followed a respectable 10 seconds later. Watched a comedy show, switched back on, and MS stormed the finish line and the rest followed a respectable 20 seconds later. The media went ape over MS and the victory and the rest were just a yawn.

So, a bit of uncertainty induces a bit of luck which may bring in a second or third tier team a podium finish. Nothing wrong with that. But not at the cost of degrading technology.

We can keep blaming Bernie, FIA, Pirelli etc.. but in a way, this season has sparked interest in even the most hardened NASCAR and other motorsport fans. Why? "6 winners from 6 races! in F1? What the heck is going on here?" seems to be the curiosity. While the 6 winners came because of 60 different reasons, the sport needs money (especially at a time when the auto industry isn't flush with money) and its essential for the purists to educate and embrace the new enthusiasts to the sport. Not shun them because they are here for entertainment.

[PuntoMania]

Originally Posted by asr245

Now you are mixing things - I replied in context to what Anachronix said and you are mixing it with tires.

I am sure someone will post these figures as and when they come out. Or I will post them as and when I find them. As far as point 3 is concerned, I never implied majority are for it.

Let me quote your earlier post on this matter :

Originally Posted by asr245

Actually you should. TV figures is what interests sponsors/manufacturers and their ability to pay multi-million $$ as sponsorship. Especially since you think (more) manufacturers are good for the sport. Money is what matter to get the best of everything that exists into the sport. An year like 2011 or 2002 or 2004 kills viewership figures which is why FIA interferes every now and then to mix up the field.



Then why was it the Spa owners (one of the best tracks which is also liked by many drivers especially KR) wanted help from the Belgian government? This happened a few years ago and lately I heard about Spa alternating with some other GP. Silverstone was also vocal about complaints (related to Bernie's fees ofcourse). Bernie has been demanding more and more money from tracks (I think our own BIC is paying in excess of $20M per race) which shoots up ticket costs leading to empty stands.

The topic of this thread is about tyres alone. Its quite clear from the above that you are implying tyres have been responsible for spicing up the show which is ensuring that viewership figures this year are on the rise.

Another implication you make is that to make F1 financially viable, we need Pirelli to spice up the show, which they are doing with these tyres.

That is unless you bought up the point of viewership figures or Spa going bankrupt without any context which would be silly.

Originally Posted by asr245

You are welcome to post these figures if you find them. I am sure FIA will be quick to respond/change if they feel things haven't gone the way they predicted to go.

Now thats naughty.
You were the one that implied viewership figures are better than ever before because of Pirelli(As proved above), so the burden of proof lies on you, not on me.

[jraj]

"On the other hand we can lose credibility. We cannot lose that the best teams, the best drivers, the best strategies win the races, because at the moment from the outside it seems that in every race anyone can win.

It doesn't matter the talent, it doesn't matter the team, the performance - it's like a lottery. What you achieve in Formula One is not by chance. We need to make clear that if you win a race, it's because you did something better. And I don't think at the moment that this is clear for everybody."

-Fernando Alonso 2x WDC

“The main thing I’m unhappy about is that everyone has to drive well below the driver’s and in particular the car’s limits in order to maintain the tyres,I question whether the tyres should play such a big role…or whether they should last longer. Then we would be able to drive at normal racing speeds and not cruise around as if we had a Safety Car.”

-Michael Schumacher 7x WDC

...the words from true champions,themselves.

I can only pity people who still argue for Pirelli.Wait until the lottery favors HRT,maybe then you will realise

[PuntoMania]

Thinking about this purists versus newbies argument, I have another point here :

Even though we have 6 winners in 6 races, we all know they have not really pushed in almost any race, or provided any moments of genius (I would say Ferrari's strategy calls in Malaysia was close though).

When do we see a sportsman produce a moment of genius ? When Nadal risks it all and goes for that seemingly impossible return off the baseline, when Lionel Messi dribbles past an astonishing 9 defenders and scores a goal, or when Tendulkar attempts to brazenly upper cut the world's fastest bowler for a six on the grandest stage of them all.

What is common about all of these moments ? The element of risk. As soon as you introduce the element of risk, when a sportsman has to push beyond the normal and go for broke, we are able to separate the good from the great and the geniuses from the also rans.

This is why, in the earlier era of racing, we were privileged to see stunning drives like Alonso's sensational drive in the wet at Hungary 2006, Lewis Hamilton nearly lapping the field in the wet at Silverstone and Monaco 2008, Kimi Raikkonen going for the win from dead last at Suzuka 2005, or Michael Schumacher with his innumerable moments of genius, churning out 25 qualifying laps at Hungary 1998, Winning from 16th place at Spa 1995, or decimating the field at Brazil 2006 after falling back to dead last. You get the drift.

All of these magical moments allowed the driver to express the racer within him, to break the boundaries that not many can do without spinning off track or crashing into a barrier. These moments cannot be replicated now because the F1 driver today cannot risk it all and lunge down the inside in desperation (they have the DRS button for that), or pull out edge of the seat stuff lap after lap in chasing down or defending against other cars around them with more genuine pace. Because the tyres dont allow it.

This is my fundamental problem with Pirelli. They are not giving us the chance to see who among these drivers can pull off a fantastic win out of nowhere by pushing the limitations of the car and driver, as they have to constantly monitor track temperature, air pressures and degradation.

[asr245]

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

Let me quote your earlier post on this matter :

That is unless you bought up the point of viewership figures or Spa going bankrupt without any context which would be silly.



Now thats naughty.
You were the one that implied viewership figures are better than ever before because of Pirelli(As proved above), so the burden of proof lies on you, not on me.

Actually this is what I responded too -

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix
If the tens of millions of fans are missing this whole point of what F1 is and what it is losing now, they are just another bunch of entertainment loving fans. I care less about them! The people who love motorsport and understand it really dont need all these explanations.

Actually you should. TV figures is what interests sponsors/manufacturers and their ability to pay multi-million $$ as sponsorship. Especially since you think (more) manufacturers are good for the sport. Money is what matter to get the best of everything that exists into the sport. An year like 2011 or 2002 or 2004 kills viewership figures which is why FIA interferes every now and then to mix up the field.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronix
I would agree with Sniper on what Bernie really cares. Its the TV audience, tracks have always been full!

Then why was it the Spa owners (one of the best tracks which is also liked by many drivers especially KR) wanted help from the Belgian government? This happened a few years ago and lately I heard about Spa alternating with some other GP. Silverstone was also vocal about complaints (related to Bernie's fees ofcourse). Bernie has been demanding more and more money from tracks (I think our own BIC is paying in excess of $20M per race) which shoots up ticket costs leading to empty stands.

That is what I responded too. This has both the original content and my reply to it. I don't see how I mixed it with tires.

About viewership, if I find them, I will post. I just said that if you find them, please post them. It was a request. Maybe it didn't sound like one in the heat of the discussion, but it was.

Edit: Don't you think these tires have spiced up the show, even if artificially?

However, I have a different theory:

There's going to be a US GP this year and from next year there might be 2 (Austin & New Jersey). Now an average joe in US is a Nascar fan (not sure about WWE) and to bring an average Nascar fan to an F1 event will require some effort i.e. overtaking. If there are crashes, they will love it even more though it's too dangerous for F1. Bernie has been trying to sell F1 in US for a while (without lowering hosting fees) and for it to be successful in US, he knows he will have to induce excitement.

So maybe it's not about falling viewership, it's about gaining it in US (maybe at the cost of Europe).

Here's a proposed map of NJ track

2013 New Jersey Grand Prix F1 street track plan revealed - F1 Fanatic

Looks like a straight line with few real turns. Maybe just what an average American would like.


PS: Another question: can you guys actually feel or make out that the drivers are taking it easy or tip-toeing? or was it only after a couple of them blasted Pirelli's? I couldn't and not sure if I still can - if I don't look at live timing, which I don't now - except for Spanish GP.

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by jraj

"On the other hand we can lose credibility. We cannot lose that the best teams, the best drivers, the best strategies win the races, because at the moment from the outside it seems that in every race anyone can win.

It doesn't matter the talent, it doesn't matter the team, the performance - it's like a lottery. What you achieve in Formula One is not by chance. We need to make clear that if you win a race, it's because you did something better. And I don't think at the moment that this is clear for everybody."

-Fernando Alonso 2x WDC

I feel it is completely wrong to quote only part of someone's interview to the press to suit the picture you are trying to paint.This is what the tabloids do.

Here is the other half of what Alonso said :

It's a fantastic season, it's so unpredictable," he told CNN. "It's good for the audience, it's good for the sport to bring attention to the races.

Mods : your views pls.

[PuntoMania]

Originally Posted by asr245

Actually this is what I responded too -



That is what I responded too. This has both the original content and my reply to it. I don't see how I mixed it with tires.



About viewership, if I find them, I will post. I just said that if you find them, please post them. It was a request. Maybe it didn't sound like one in the heat of the discussion, but it was.

So from this we can conclude that you did not imply that viewership figures increased in F1 because of Pirelli spicing up the show.

So not only do you not have proof about the introduction of Pirelli saving F1 from its apparent self destruction, but you also know that they do not promote meritorious racing (from the comments of all the top F1 drivers posted on this thread).

What is it that you support Pirelli for again ?

Originally Posted by asr245

Edit: Don't you think these tires have spiced up the show, even if artificially?

Yes, and the last word is my biggest problem with the show.

Originally Posted by asr245

PS: Another question: can you guys actually feel or make out that the drivers are taking it easy or tip-toeing? or was it only after a couple of them blasted Pirelli's? I couldn't and not sure if I still can - if I don't look at live timing, which I don't now - except for Spanish GP.

Yes, live timing definitely and when I saw Kimi not going for the win against Vettel after just one attempt, or when a driver of Alonso's caliber backed off with no grip towards the end of Spain, I defintely noticed something fishy. I have never seen Alonso not going hell for leather for a win at Spain.

The live timing is the biggest indicator though. I cant imagine following races without live timing, how do you even make sense of the different strategies otherwise. Steve Slater definitely does his bit in interrupting your thinking every 5 seconds.

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

Thinking about this purists versus newbies argument, I have another point here :

Even though we have 6 winners in 6 races, we all know they have not really pushed in almost any race, or provided any moments of genius (I would say Ferrari's strategy calls in Malaysia was close though).

When do we see a sportsman produce a moment of genius ? When Nadal risks it all and goes for that seemingly impossible return off the baseline, when Lionel Messi dribbles past an astonishing 9 defenders and scores a goal, or when Tendulkar attempts to brazenly upper cut the world's fastest bowler for a six on the grandest stage of them all.

What is common about all of these moments ? The element of risk. As soon as you introduce the element of risk, when a sportsman has to push beyond the normal and go for broke, we are able to separate the good from the great and the geniuses from the also rans.

This is why, in the earlier era of racing, we were privileged to see stunning drives like Alonso's sensational drive in the wet at Hungary 2006, Lewis Hamilton nearly lapping the field in the wet at Silverstone and Monaco 2008, Kimi Raikkonen going for the win from dead last at Suzuka 2005, or Michael Schumacher with his innumerable moments of genius, churning out 25 qualifying laps at Hungary 1998, Winning from 16th place at Spa 1995, or decimating the field at Brazil 2006 after falling back to dead last. You get the drift.

All of these magical moments allowed the driver to express the racer within him, to break the boundaries that not many can do without spinning off track or crashing into a barrier. These moments cannot be replicated now because the F1 driver today cannot risk it all and lunge down the inside in desperation (they have the DRS button for that), or pull out edge of the seat stuff lap after lap in chasing down or defending against other cars around them with more genuine pace. Because the tyres dont allow it.

This is my fundamental problem with Pirelli. They are not giving us the chance to see who among these drivers can pull off a fantastic win out of nowhere by pushing the limitations of the car and driver, as they have to constantly monitor track temperature, air pressures and degradation.

Great point you make and very well written. Risk and glory should always be proportional.
Although, if ever notice Alonso very closely, in periods of changing conditions (getting wetter or dryer ) he always takes more time than the other top drivers to get on the pace. The greatest of drivers always find ways to minimise this risk.

The reason I support Pirelli is that in the past few seasons Vettel seemed to be the only producing stunning drives, only because he had the quickest car (Alonso winning in Silverstone is an exception, like a few more maybe)

Point being, F1 did not allow drivers the chance to produce those stunning drives as they could not overtake, this is a real reflection on the cars themselves and not the drivers. Just like not being able to overtake in Monaco is a reflection on the circuit rather than the car/driver. (Do you remember Alonso pulling off 2 stunning moves on MS at Suzuka 2005 when they were at Renault and Ferrari respectively? - That would not be possible in the past few years)

But there is a silver lining, which is that I can guarantee is that this "randomness of pace" will diminish and genuine pace of cars will begin to show once the teams understand the tyres more.. which is happening with every race

[asr245]

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

So from this we can conclude that you did not imply that viewership figures increased in F1 because of Pirelli spicing up the show.

So not only do you not have proof about the introduction of Pirelli saving F1 from its apparent self destruction, but you also know that they do not promote meritorious racing (from the comments of all the top F1 drivers posted on this thread).

What is it that you support Pirelli for again ?

Yes, I have no proof of viewership figures nor was my support for Pirellis depending on them. Plus it's Bernie/FIA who's to be blamed for DRS/these tires.

I support it for improving the show, even if drivers cannot be always on the limit. That might be because I thought that during pre-Pirelli/DRS era had made it almost impossible for drivers to overtake. It had become far more easier to defend than to overtake. e.g. A driver of Petrov's capability kept Alonso behind for 60-70% of the (championship deciding) race at Abu Dabhi 2010. Alonso couldn't even make a single proper attack even though he was faster of the two. BTW, I do not support DRS.

Plus I also believe (again no proof for this) that engineers and drivers would sort this out in a few months or FIA will ask Pirellis to make more durable tires. I am sure Pirelli are entirely capable of doing that. So why blame them?

Originally Posted by PuntoMania

Yes, live timing definitely and when I saw Kimi not going for the win against Vettel after just one attempt, or when a driver of Alonso's caliber backed off with no grip towards the end of Spain, I defintely noticed something fishy. I have never seen Alonso not going hell for leather for a win at Spain.

To be honest, Monaco was the only race I got the feeling that they are not on the limit. Rain factor + endless messages from team pitwall aside, it looked like they weren't getting as close to the walls as they did in previous years. Or maybe I was imagining it knowing that they needed to conserve tires.

I thought strategies had become quite predictable except when it rained. Or maybe it was the downturn in Williams performance that I didn't want to know how they were doing. Spanish GP was the 1st time since end of 2008 that I had live timing with me.

[Sn1p3r]

This discussion is going in loops.
If a team and it's engineers + driver work out an all aces suit, e.g. Merc when Mika roughed Michael in Ferrari or Brawn GP went from last on grid Honda to Button the champion, when Newey pulled a clever one on Grid with diffuser interpretation.

All these without tyre as a crucial factor it's not F1. It's a race, I am sure if in a Marathon a runner does not get overlapped we don't watch and appreciate the winner, if in cycling the winner is an aggregate of wins rather than winning ever stage then it's not exciting? MotoGP was still exciting when Rossi ruled, Lorrenzo won and Casey went off off and away. Hopefully artificial aids are not used and we see the actual cars win rather than a factor beyond control. That's it. I will now enjoy the races as entertainment rather than a game. (no under belly shots on IPL )

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by Hatari

If only the FIA let them go quicker!. They are slowing cars down on safety grounds with smaller engines, aero restrictions etc. But they still gain about 2-2.5 seconds every year in lap time.

FIA is not slowing cars for safety, you may need to watch the sport more in detail if you really think that is what the FIA is after. They dont want one team running away with it and bringing F1 closer to spec car series!

Teams never declare their spends! (Only Williams as they are a listed company) These are all industry estimates.

Ever heard of RRA in F1 and do you know why Ferrari left FOTA back in December!?

Why should every team get an equal share! The Concorde agreement defines percentage earnings for each team depending on their historical status and brand presence in F1. How can you even compare HRT and Ferrari in this regard? The other component is prize money. Teams do not necessarily need to win a race to earn prize money. It depends on where they finish in the Constructors. Caterham earned $35 million by finishing 10th last year compared to $10 million the season before.

Originally Posted by anachronix

Not every team gets an equal share from the revenue. Not even the teams that manage to win a race from the tire lottery this year! Read about the F1 crisis back in early 2000s.

You are repeating what I told you! Whats the fun?

Arent all business heads? Its his job to earn more money for the sport (he gets his fair share too of course )

Ofcourse, its his job to bring money for the sport and he is doing a great job but he is doing it by killing the sport.

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by anachronix

FIA is not slowing cars for safety, you may need to watch the sport more in detail if you really think that is what the FIA is after.

Why do you think grooved tires were introduced?

Ever heard of RRA in F1 and do you know why Ferrari left FOTA back in December!?

This is going around in circles. Has the RRA released any figures? Have you seen them?

Not just Ferrari, Red Bull, Sauber, Toro Rosso, HRT have all left FOTA.

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by Hatari

Why do you think grooved tires were introduced?

Going by your logic, why would FIA bring the slicks back!?

This is going around in circles. Has the RRA released any figures? Have you seen them?

Not just Ferrari, Red Bull, Sauber, Toro Rosso, HRT have all left FOTA.

I agree, no team officially released any figures under the RRA!

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by anachronix

Going by your logic, why would FIA bring the slicks back!?

This whole thread is about how the current Pirelli slicks are slowing down the cars more than they should