[deetjohn]

The Horse Whisperer is back! And this time to take on the Pirelli saga at the Spanish GP.

The Horse Whisperer - Tyred and emotional

[Hatari]

^^
I do remember Shumi's 4 stopper, exciting race and great strategy.
Good to see the FIA not making knee jerk reactions and limiting tire compound/construction changes to safety grounds only.

[Maky]

Ah! The Horse Whisperer...
What a load of Poo. RBR are doing today what Ferrari did back in the day. Playing clever politics to gain an advantage for themselves on track. F1 has and always will have these kind of things. Hypocrites.
That being said, ALO or HAM for WDC 2013 : ). It would appear RBRs & Mercs lobbying has failed though.

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by Maky

Ah! The Horse Whisperer...
What a load of Poo. RBR are doing today what Ferrari did back in the day. Playing clever politics to gain an advantage for themselves on track. F1 has and always will have these kind of things. Hypocrites.
That being said, ALO or HAM for WDC 2013 : ). It would appear RBRs & Mercs lobbying has failed though.

Do explain how Ferrari are trying to gain an advantage here and not how Red Bull & Co are trying to gain an advantage by changing the tires

[Maky]

Originally Posted by Hatari

Do explain how Ferrari are trying to gain an advantage here and not how Red Bull & Co are trying to gain an advantage by changing the tires

I'm very surprised to read this.
I can only assume you are not paying attention to how the different cars are reacting to the tyres. Very well I shall explain Hatari, for I love explaining F1!...

RBR and Mercedes are high down force vehicles, RBR are producing by far the most downforce although to be more precise Mercedes are simply too hard on their tyres. These 2013 tyres were designed to punish those(RBR to be very specific) who run high downforce setup, This was instructed by BigB himself to help even out the field and hopefully break the streak that RBR has for it makes viewing numbers drop whenever one team keeps winning consistently over and over again. RBR has been lobbying against the current tyre compound for this very reason.

Ferrari(& Lotus) on the other hand have absolutely no Issues whatsoever with the tyres degrading too quickly, hence can do less one stop and/or ability to go a couple tenths quicker each lap without worry, If the tyres were to be made to 2012 spec, the spec which was mastered by all the top teams, then they would loose their advantage for RBR could then keep running their high downforce cars flat out without worrying about deg.

In conclusion, Hatari, Ferrari would keep their advantage in that the tyres remain the same and they keep performing at optimal levels where as RBR would gain an advantage if they were to revert them to 2012 spec where RBR was the quickest along with Macca.

Now to turn back the clock many years ago. MSC at his finest. Ferrari unstoppable. All the teams and frankly non-tifosi viewers were sick and tired and the worldwide viewer ship numbers showed, Finally in 2005 they introduced new regulations to the Formula to slow down Ferrari, Remember that key strength of Ferrari back in those times was it's strong understanding and relationship with Bridgestone. The new regulations stated that every driver had to use single set of tyres during qualifying and the race, maintaining a single set of tyres for the entire race was the challenge, Hence the challenge for tyre manufactures was to make long lasting compounds. It turned out Michelin tyres had a clear advantage over Bridgestone and hence Ferrari was at the disadvantage after many years of dominance and lobbied hard to get the changes down as RBR is now and today.
Do you now understand the hypocrisy? : )

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by Maky

I'm very surprised to read this.
I can only assume you are not paying attention to how the different cars are reacting to the tyres. Very well I shall explain Hatari, for I love explaining F1!...

You've tried to explain the wrong question. Dont you think RB & Mercedes have got it wrong with respect to race setup? All teams were aware of the mandate given to Pirelli and the resultant tire deg. Both these teams want to change tire compound/construction mid season which is AGAINST FIA RULES (Do read the latest press release by the FIA on this)

Therefore, both teams want to GAIN AN ADVANTAGE by reverting to 2012 spec rather than Ferrari/Lotus foregoing it.

[Maky]

Originally Posted by Hatari

You've tried to explain the wrong question. Dont you think RB & Mercedes have got it wrong with respect to race setup? All teams were aware of the mandate given to Pirelli and the resultant tire deg. Both these teams want to change tire compound/construction mid season which is AGAINST FIA RULES (Do read the latest press release by the FIA on this)

Therefore, both teams want to GAIN AN ADVANTAGE by reverting to 2012 spec rather than Ferrari/Lotus foregoing it.

Sorry maybe I haven't understood what you were asking, what exactly is your question Hatari? I will give my opinion on your other points.
No I do not think its race setup that they've got wrong not at all but rather their car is inherently flawed for current formula. Merc is an evolution of the 2009 brawn which has always had issues with tyres. Back in 2009 they had issues with getting heat into the tyres and today they can't seem to get rid of it.
As for RBR again it's not race setup but the incredible amount of pressure on the rears because of design not a simple matter of wing adjustment else they'd have done it already to find the balance.
Keep in mind if it was a simple question of race setup they'd have fixed it. Historically Appeals are only made in F1 if they know they can't compete because their car has been designed to be radically different and/or required changes are beyond the teams financial resources. Latter of which does not apply in the concerned teams case.
I read the latest FIA ruling regarding their decision on compound change and the reason behind it yes.

[Hatari]

Originally Posted by Maky

Sorry maybe I haven't understood what you were asking, what exactly is your question Hatari? I will give my opinion on your other points.

My point is RB/Mercedes are trying to find a way out of not being able to make their tires last and constantly Pirelli bashing. The rules were known and set equally for all at the beginning of the year and now both teams realise that Ferrari/Lotus have better race pace

It is RB/Merc trying to be political and change things that have always been the same for all rather than Ferrari.

[Maky]

Originally Posted by Hatari

My point is RB/Mercedes are trying to find a way out of not being able to make their tires last and constantly Pirelli bashing. The rules were known and set equally for all at the beginning of the year and now both teams realise that Ferrari/Lotus have better race pace

It is RB/Merc trying to be political and change things that have always been the same for all rather than Ferrari.

You are spot on both, They are indeed bashing Pirelli for lack of pace/competitiveness due to their own chassis fault & yes they realise Lotus and Ferrari among others are just better at tyres hence making themselves uncompetitive or less so.
Yes RBR and Merc are playing the political game to change things that are the same for all rather than Ferrari.
If you will now read my original post on the horse whisperer criticising RBR, I said it was hypocritical because Ferrari did the same not long ago : ) They are not doing anything now just defending their position by citing the regulations. The advantage Ferrari gain is by not allowing RBR to get the tyres changed is all. Sorry If I had been unclear in my original quote on Horse Whisper I thought it was fairly clear.

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by Maky

...for I love explaining F1!...

RBR and Mercedes are high down force vehicles, RBR are producing by far the most downforce although to be more precise Mercedes are simply too hard on their tyres. These 2013 tyres were designed to punish those(RBR to be very specific) who run high downforce setup, This was instructed by BigB himself to help even out the field and hopefully break the streak that RBR has for it makes viewing numbers drop whenever one team keeps winning consistently over and over again. RBR has been lobbying against the current tyre compound for this very reason.

So high downforce cars will suffer from high degradation, then why is the Caterham & Marussia cars doing 4 pitstops?

Ferrari(& Lotus) on the other hand have absolutely no Issues whatsoever with the tyres degrading too quickly, hence can do less one stop and/or ability to go a couple tenths quicker each lap without worry,

So Ferrari & Lotus have poor downforce and hence they are kind on the tyres, right? Ever noticed sector times and how the sections of the track are divided that could reflect the character of a car? Especially in Catalunya!

If the tyres were to be made to 2012 spec, the spec which was mastered by all the top teams, then they would loose their advantage for RBR could then keep running their high downforce cars flat out without worrying about deg.

In conclusion, Hatari, Ferrari would keep their advantage in that the tyres remain the same and they keep performing at optimal levels where as RBR would gain an advantage if they were to revert them to 2012 spec where RBR was the quickest along with Macca.

The tyres are same for all the teams, everyone mastered the tyre game thrown at them by Pirelli every year. Its only RedBull & Mercedes that are struggling and making all the noise to change the tyres, the high downforce of the Redbull have always masked their tyre issues while the Mercedes has it in its genes to eat tyres.

Do you now understand the hypocrisy? : )

Lobbying and hypocrisy has always been there in F1 and its no news! The single tyre rule that the FIA baboons came up with in 2005 has been extreme and one of the most stupid rules to be made in F1. It was becoming a 1.5 hour endurance race.

[vikram_d]

Originally Posted by anachronix

So high downforce cars will suffer from high degradation, then why is the Caterham & Marussia cars doing 4 pitstops?

Caterham & Marussia are doing 4 pit stops because they don't have enough down force on their cars and that is causing the car to slide around and destroy it's tyres.

Originally Posted by anachronix

So Ferrari & Lotus have poor downforce and hence they are kind on the tyres, right?

Nope they have just the right amount of down force to use their tyres well. More over in Spain the Ferrari cars were also eating up their tyres, but in this case the cars had raw speed to make up for time lost for the extra pit stop.

Originally Posted by anachronix

Lobbying and hypocrisy has always been there in F1 and its no news! The single tyre rule that the FIA baboons came up with in 2005 has been extreme and one of the most stupid rules to be made in F1. It was becoming a 1.5 hour endurance race.

Completely agree with this.

[anachronix]

Yes, so the logic of High-DF and High-Degradation of tyres is a flaw, right?

Originally Posted by vikram_d

Caterham & Marussia are doing 4 pit stops because they don't have enough down force on their cars and that is causing the car to slide around and destroy it's tyres.

In Catalunya, raw speed comes with high-downforce. With low downforce, the tyres do the hardwork of giving traction through the slow corners. The Catalunya circuit as such is very demanding on the front tyres along with the abrassive surface of the circuit makes even the BS tyres work hard. 4 stops in Catalunya was something the teams would have expected. Even again, the teams that did 4 stops were pushing their cars while the 3 stopping cars were running a procession.

A similar pattern of news from the same teams Redbull & Mercedes in 2012 in pre-race interviews in Malaysia.

http://www.f1katewalker.com/1/post/2...gradation.html

Nope they have just the right amount of down force to use their tyres well. More over in Spain the Ferrari cars were also eating up their tyres, but in this case the cars had raw speed to make up for time lost for the extra pit stop.

[vikram_d]

Originally Posted by anachronix

Yes, so the logic of High-DF and High-Degradation of tyres is a flaw, right?

It is absolutely flawed. From what little I know of F1 from a technical view, I think Red Bulls problems are a combination of their short ratio gearing that they are known to use and the supposed high levels of down force present on their cars. I don't think that it is only the down force killing tyres.

Originally Posted by anachronix

In Catalunya, raw speed comes with high-downforce. With low downforce, the tyres do the hardwork of giving traction through the slow corners. The Catalunya circuit as such is very demanding on the front tyres along with the abrassive surface of the circuit makes even the BS tyres work hard. 4 stops in Catalunya was something the teams would have expected. Even again, the teams that did 4 stops were pushing their cars while the 3 stopping cars were running a procession.

A similar pattern of news from the same teams Redbull & Mercedes in 2012 in pre-race interviews in Malaysia.

http://www.f1katewalker.com/1/post/2...gradation.html

True. Hey I am all for the type of tyres being used right now. At least the race keeps us on our toes and is interesting to see who is doing what. So if you ask me, don't change anything with the tyres and as pointed out by the FIA just make sure that they don't delaminate the way they did in Spain.

[Maky]

Originally Posted by anachronix

So high downforce cars will suffer from high degradation, then why is the Caterham & Marussia cars doing 4 pitstops

Caterham and Maurussia are among the most rubbish cars on the grid anachronix, least funded as well, Cannot make such a comparision. It can easily be down(probably is) to horrible design, The result being hard on the tyres at the same time being aerodynamically ineffective.

Originally Posted by anachronix

So Ferrari & Lotus have poor downforce and hence they are kind on the tyres, right? Ever noticed sector times and how the sections of the track are divided that could reflect the character of a car? Especially in Catalunya!

No. It is not as simple as High-Downforce = Tyres dead and Less-Downforce = Tyres live. It comes down to many technical factors, factors which are unique to each chassis. I'm not an expert but as I read it a while back in an 'analysis' article RBR runs their cars at a sharper angle than most where the front end of the car is much more lower(lowest per regulation) and the rear end higher. This allows for quicker cornering, which is RBRs strengths, which if you have a look at the sectors you spoke of you will find them ace the sectors which require a highdownforce setup for the first few laps of their tyres life after which there is a drop off. Equally they are among the slowest on the sectors with more 'straights' than 'curves' due to the drag created.
Now, For this to work the car in question must produce a lot of downforce to keep the rear end down to allow for higher than average power delivery into the corner and be able to put the foot on the as earlier out of the corner. The current tyres are designed to punish this behaviour. Which is why RBR is suffering. Also, I think the renault engine is tuned in a more agressive manner for RBR being its works team etc. Catalunya you mentioned is an abrasive track which I did not know, Added to its woes perhaps?
Ferrari & Lotus are kind on their tyres not because they have poor downforce. If they ahd poor downforce in this age of aero F1 they wouldn't be competitive. They are kind on their tyres because they are balanced, Chassis design and setup. As for Merc I really don't understand what the deal is there as I stated earlier I think it is just inherently flawed in its design.

Originally Posted by anachronix

Yes, so the logic of High-DF and High-Degradation of tyres is a flaw, right?

When I said RBR produces high down force and hence is having deg issues. I meant it in the context above. This is a blanket statement I made as I did not go into the technical aspect of it for I'm not sure one should start discussions with such level of complexity not knowing the other persons level of knowledge on the same. If one simply states High DF=High Deg it is flawed and not completely accurate yes.

Originally Posted by anachronix

The tyres are same for all the teams, everyone mastered the tyre game thrown at them by Pirelli every year. Its only RedBull & Mercedes that are struggling and making all the noise to change the tyres, the high downforce of the Redbull have always masked their tyre issues while the Mercedes has it in its genes to eat tyres.

Yes. Thats perhaps why the tyres are tailored specifically to stop RBR in their tracks. From a political point of view, With 3 years consecutively winning WDC and WCC RBR gains a lot of say in the way F1 is run don't they. I really think Macca and Ferrari don't want another top dog in the house.

Originally Posted by anachronix

Lobbying and hypocrisy has always been there in F1 and its no news! The single tyre rule that the FIA baboons came up with in 2005 has been extreme and one of the most stupid rules to be made in F1. It was becoming a 1.5 hour endurance race.

Yes I agree, You quoting me on this makes me wonder if you thought I was debating this, No I wasn't. It was a statement. I agree.
Also, This may not be news for you or me but I mention it for people who are new to F1 or may not be informed of the same ; ).
As for the 2005 ruling I think they were desperate to end MSC reign to save the falling ratings, which is how F1 earns a good chunk of it's money.

Originally Posted by vikram_d

True. Hey I am all for the type of tyres being used right now. At least the race keeps us on our toes and is interesting to see who is doing what. So if you ask me, don't change anything with the tyres and as pointed out by the FIA just make sure that they don't delaminate the way they did in Spain.

Indeed.

[vikram_d]

Originally Posted by Maky

I read it a while back in an 'analysis' article RBR runs their cars at a sharper angle than most where the front end of the car is much more lower(lowest per regulation) and the rear end higher. This allows for quicker cornering.

A quick technical explanation if I may.

Lower front end and higher rear end is called the rake angle of the car. The simple of rule of aerodynamics is that the closer the wing is to the ground the more down force it will produce.

This is the reason Red Bull run their cars with more rake than the others. But this rake is very detrimental to the floor of the car and to it's diffuser. If I remember correctly is the diffuser and the floor combined are what generate the most down force on any F1 car and this is more than both the front and rear wings combined.

As the rear end of the car goes higher the diffuser efficiency reduces and hence all the modern attempts at sealing the diffuser sides. Sealing the sides of the diffuser with exhaust gases, prevent the air flow below the diffuser from leaking out the sides and increases it's efficiency.