[kar_thikr]

We were soo used to seeing anyone from the top 3 team winning, in almost all the races in the recent past, and if we are lucky we will get an odd podium appearance from someone else here or there.
But this race was soo refreshing, that F1 needed it so badly for the future of the sports itself. I don't think anyone would have any complaint for this race. Every positions were well fought for and everyone saw an oppertunity for a better result and everyone gave it their all (Maybe Bottas was an exception).

Going through Lesmo 2, K Mag simply overdid it, took on too aggressive an entry speed for the Haas to stick – and off he slid for a wild ride through the gravel trap. He rejoined just as Kvyat was exiting the corner. That valuable tow down to Ascari and from there to the Parabolica was no longer available for Kvyat as he flashed past the slowed Haas. That was the difference between getting through and not. Gasly, benefitting from Kvyat’s tow, went through sixth-fastest. Kvyat was only 11th. Without the Magnussen incident, he’d have surely made it into Q3 and would have been obliged to start on the softs.
Gasly and Kvyat had run line-astern from the beginning of the race, but from around Lap 15 Gasly’s soft compound C4 tyres were beginning to fade. Kvyat’s hard compound C2s were doing just fine – and Kvyat was being held up behind his team mate. He repeatedly urged the team to move Gasly aside – and this was very much a factor in the Lap 19 timing of Gasly’s stop. The perfect time, as would later become evident.

K-mag will surely be in Gasly's Christmas card list. But nevertheless like the old saying "You have to in it to win it" and doing so with relentless pressure from Sainz, presumably in a better car with better tyres.

[prasathlr]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

What a race. The best race so far of the whole season. Sadly, I missed the second part from the point of restart onwards. Hotstar only allows you to watch the highlights later on and not the whole race. Any place where I can catch a replay of the race? I can only manage to find highlights.

You can watch the whole race in Hotstar. I use Hotstar VIP and checked just now. I could see the whole race saved under in the Formula 1 section.

[wrongturn]

Originally Posted by Yusha

There was nothing wrong with Bottas's car. He just flubbed the start and admitted it himself.

And Hamilton visiting the Stewards is not "arrogance" but his wish to understand what had happened with the pit entry. The Stewards showed him his onboard and Hamilton accepted his mistake gracefully and carried on with the race. Started second last but ended the race in 7th, just 2 positions behind Bottas.

Guys I respect the fact that you are Hamilton fans, but please admit the facts.

1. Parts of Mercedes which Bottas was driving was even replaced when the race was red flagged. Bottas at the very start mentioned that there was something wrong with the car, he thought it was a puncture. What changed overnight? That Mercedes was crippled from the very start of the race

2. Even we saw the replays during the live race, Mercedes would certainly have had them too. A similar penalty was imposed on Giovinazzi, he didn't go to the stewards. Have never seen such an incident in any sports by any sportsman, cause this isn't what you call sportsmanship.

Everytime the odds are against 'Get in there Lewis' he gets paranoid and blames almost everything he can.

And ofcourse I dislike Hamilton, it's a sport and we all love some and hate some, nothing personal.

BTW, slipstream window is generally 5 seconds and on Monza it's 7 seconds, so Bottas did tow him to that pole and the record. Bottas will say what Mercedes would want him to say, he is a wingman and is just following the orders. I hope you know what happened in the last race when he showed his desire to challange Hamilton.

How poetic was Vettel's drive through those barriers was, and an Italian car winning in the end was all the same dramatic. Monza never ceases to amaze, yet another epic race.

[prasathlr]

Originally Posted by wrongturn

Guys I respect the fact that you are Hamilton fans, but please admit the facts.

1. Parts of Mercedes which Bottas was driving was even replaced when the race was red flagged. Bottas at the very start mentioned that there was something wrong with the car, he thought it was a puncture. What changed overnight? That Mercedes was crippled from the very start of the race

2. Even we saw the replays during the live race, Mercedes would certainly have had them too. A similar penalty was imposed on Giovinazzi, he didn't go to the stewards. Have never seen such an incident in any sports by any sportsman, cause this isn't what you call sportsmanship.

Everytime the odds are against 'Get in there Lewis' he gets paranoid and blames almost everything he can.

And ofcourse I dislike Hamilton, it's a sport and we all love some and hate some, nothing personal.

BTW, slipstream window is generally 5 seconds and on Monza it's 7 seconds, so Bottas did tow him to that pole and the record. Bottas will say what Mercedes would want him to say, he is a wingman and is just following the orders. I hope you know what happened in the last race when he showed his desire to challange Hamilton.

How poetic was Vettel's drive through those barriers was, and an Italian car winning in the end was all the same dramatic.

Not a fan of Mercedes and Hamilton but some facts stated by you are slightly biased.

1. Hamilton's defence was that the pit entry light wasn't red. He agreed that he didn't see the two red flashing lights when he was taking the parabolica turn. So he probably thought he could try to find a loophole that pit entry light was not red hence he could avoid the penalty. I am not defending Hamiltion for meeting the stewards but some of the greatest sportsmen have always tried to find a loophole in the rules. Best example is Michael Schumacher's stop-and-go penalty at the 1998 British GP.

2. Mercedes decided that both the drivers won't get the tow for the qualifying runs. You can see how far the second Merc car was behind the first Merc car. Even I was confused as in why weren't Merc giving each other a tow which was clarified by the commentators.

[wrongturn]

Originally Posted by prasathlr

Not a fan of Mercedes and Hamilton but some facts stated by you are slightly biased.

1. Hamilton's defence was that the pit entry light wasn't red. He agreed that he didn't see the two red flashing lights when he was taking the parabolica turn. So he probably thought he could try to find a loophole that pit entry light was not red hence he could avoid the penalty. I am not defending Hamiltion for meeting the stewards but some of the greatest sportsmen have always tried to find a loophole in the rules. Best example is Michael Schumacher's stop-and-go penalty at the 1998 British GP.

Wasn't Hamilton's job, team management is in place just for that. Hamilton made the same point on radio, team spoke to stewards hence there was a delay between the penalties imposed on Giovinazzi and Hamilton.

2. Mercedes decided that both the drivers won't get the tow for the qualifying runs. You can see how far the second Merc car was behind the first Merc car. Even I was confused as in why weren't Merc giving each other a tow which was clarified by the commentators.

IIRC, Hamilton crossed the line within 4 seconds of Bottas in Q3 during final run, infact they got out earlier than usual for the second run to try out 2 back to back hot laps to break that record or to help Hamilton break that record.

Alright, let's just end that tow argument.

Bottas was faster than Hamilton in FP1 & FP3. Almost matched him during qualifying (better IMHO). What happened during race, like always.

He is a wingman, and is racing for the benefit of Hamilton because Mercedes wants him to. Let's just agree to that.

[prasathlr]

Originally Posted by wrongturn

Bottas was faster than Hamilton in FP1 & FP3. Almost matched him during qualifying (better IMHO). What happened during the race, like always.

Like I said not a fan of Hamilton but there is no denying that he is one of the best drivers ever in F1 history.

Bottas has always struggled with the tires in the race, he doesn't seem to manage the tires as well as Hamilton. We have seen time and again how Bottas struggles as the car heats up and he is unable to maintain the same levels of performance from the car. On a one-lap qualifying pace, Bottas is almost there on Hamiltion's level but not better than him. But in a 50+ laps race, Bottas is nowhere near Hamilton. Hamilton is just a phenomenal talent.

[wrongturn]

Originally Posted by prasathlr

Like I said not a fan of Hamilton but there is no denying that he is one of the best drivers ever in F1 history.

No, he is not. Thankfully F1 released an official list of the 'fastest F1 drivers' and he is 3rd even after 6 years with the ever dominant, fastest of them all, Team Mercedes. Pre Mercedes era, he was just what he actually is, a mediocre and that's just my humble opinion, no offense to Hamilton fans.

Bottas has always struggled with the tires in the race, he doesn't seem to manage the tires as well as Hamilton. We have seen time and again how Bottas struggles as the car heats up and he is unable to maintain the same levels of performance from the car. On a one-lap qualifying pace, Bottas is almost there on Hamiltion's level but not better than him. But in a 50+ laps race, Bottas is nowhere near Hamilton. Hamilton is just a phenomenal talent.

Again not true, you simply avoided the facts I presented and gave a vague reply based on what you believe. That's not even relevant to Monza race where Bottas had a problem from start, a lot of parts of his Mercedes were replaced when the session was red flagged and so, lets not even talk about other races.

Since you are Hamilton biased, doesn't matter you are a fan or not, this argument isnt going anywhere. I respect your opinion but don't agree with the same.

Throughout the history of the sport, F1 has never stooped so low in ratings. The Ferrari dominated era, RedBull dominated era were atleast competitive and weren't so one sided and biased as this Mercedes era.

[Yusha]

Originally Posted by wrongturn

Wasn't Hamilton's job, team management is in place just for that. Hamilton made the same point on radio, team spoke to stewards hence there was a delay between the penalties imposed on Giovinazzi and Hamilton.



IIRC, Hamilton crossed the line within 4 seconds of Bottas in Q3 during final run, infact they got out earlier than usual for the second run to try out 2 back to back hot laps to break that record or to help Hamilton break that record.

Alright, let's just end that tow argument.

Bottas was faster than Hamilton in FP1 & FP3. Almost matched him during qualifying (better IMHO). What happened during race, like always.

He is a wingman, and is racing for the benefit of Hamilton because Mercedes wants him to. Let's just agree to that.

Ok, you are forcing me to say this. Bottas is a good qualifier and pushes Lewis in qualifying, but he screws up his starts more often then not and his pretty average in race pace with below average race craft.

I think you saw some other race then the rest of us. Bottas dropped to sixth in the opening laps of the race and finished the race in fifth place.

Hamilton dropped to 16th and recovered to 7th. Just two positions and approx. 10 seconds behind Bottas.

This states the obvious difference between a great driver and a good driver.

[Yusha]

Originally Posted by wrongturn

No, he is not. Thankfully F1 released an official list of the 'fastest F1 drivers' and he is 3rd even after 6 years with the ever dominant, fastest of them all, Team Mercedes. Pre Mercedes era, he was just what he actually is, a mediocre and that's just my humble opinion, no offense to Hamilton fans.


Again not true, you simply avoided the facts I presented and gave a vague reply based on what you believe. That's not even relevant to Monza race where Bottas had a problem from start, a lot of parts of his Mercedes were replaced when the session was red flagged and so, lets not even talk about other races.

Since you are Hamilton biased, doesn't matter you are a fan or not, this argument isnt going anywhere. I respect your opinion but don't agree with the same.

What facts have you quoted?

Only Ayrton and MS are above Lewis Hamilton and not by a big margin too. Don't worry, by the time he is done, Lewis will own the record books.

Where is Bottas on this list?

I know what ever I say won't change your opinion but do not denigrate LH based on your opinion.

I have been following his career since 2005 and have been constantly been amazed by his skill, talent, race craft and intelligence.

Check out his GP2 race at Turkey in 2006. Equal cars with same chassis, engine and aero so you cannot say that his car was better.

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by wrongturn

No, he is not. Thankfully F1 released an official list of the 'fastest F1 drivers' and he is 3rd even after 6 years with the ever dominant, fastest of them all, Team Mercedes. Pre Mercedes era, he was just what he actually is, a mediocre and that's just my humble opinion, no offense to Hamilton fans.

He's third after senna and Schumacher. The first is arguably the most prolific talent in f1, the second is a renowned dominator, as well as the first driver who made f1 boring.
Wow, Hamilton fans are truly disappointed that he's only third.
And he was a champion before Mercedes. (maybe he was given the championship because Ron paid off timo glock)

Originally Posted by wrongturn

Throughout the history of the sport, F1 has never stooped so low in ratings. The Ferrari dominated era, RedBull dominated era were atleast competitive and weren't so one sided and biased as this Mercedes era.

Oh please. They were just as boring and frustrating for anyone who was not a fan of the red car or the finger.
Even so, I wonder what is different that the Mercedes team is much more dominant than the previous dominant teams.

[prasathlr]

Originally Posted by wrongturn

No, he is not. Thankfully F1 released an official list of the 'fastest F1 drivers' and he is 3rd even after 6 years with the ever dominant, fastest of them all, Team Mercedes. Pre Mercedes era, he was just what he actually is, a mediocre and that's just my humble opinion, no offense to Hamilton fans.

That was such a flawed list made by Amazon to market Amazon AWS. At the end of the day the algorithm was created with so many parameters that the list can be manipulated in any way possible.

[wrongturn]

Originally Posted by Yusha

What facts have you quoted.

About the crippled Mercedes of Bottas, weren't you reading?

Only Ayrton and MS are above Lewis Hamilton and not by a big margin too. Don't worry, by the time he is done, Lewis will own the record books.

I too said 3rd. Weren't you reading?
Schumacher is twice as fast, let alone the legendary Senna. And, honestly Max would pass Hamilton sooner, and in all probability Hamilton won't get to the second spot not matter the amount of 'Get in there Lewis' we will see in his race career.

I know what ever I say won't change your opinion but do not denigrate LH based on your opinion.

Last year's German GP and the reactions of grandstands would answer that question.

I have been following his career since 2005 and have been constantly been amazed by his skill, talent, race craft and intelligence.

Check out his GP2 race at Turkey in 2006. Equal cars with same chassis, engine and aero so you cannot say that his car was better.

That is the problem he has too few 'epic' races on his resume. That's why he can't be in the league of All Time Greats. Do yourself a favour and make a datasheet on his pre and post Mercedes era, maybe you will make me and the billion others a believer!

Originally Posted by mayankk

He's third after senna and Schumacher. The first is arguably the most prolific talent in f1, the second is a renowned dominator, as well as the first driver who made f1 boring.

Like I said, I too mentioned the same, he is 3rd on the list. Please refer to the ratings and compare those F1 seasons to Mercedes dominated seasons.

Wow, Hamilton fans are truly disappointed that he's only third.

Max would own that spot soon. More disappointment for Hamilton fans.

And he was a champion before Mercedes. (maybe he was given the championship because Ron paid off timo glock)

If you say so. Also read the 2007 F1 espionage controversy. 2007 - 2012 (McLaren) = 1 Championship. 2013 - 2019 (Mercedes) = 5 Championships in 7 years, with 6 dominant Mercedes years. Yeah! all time great stats right there for you.

Oh please. They were just as boring and frustrating for anyone who was not a fan of the red car or the finger.
Even so, I wonder what is different that the Mercedes team is much more dominant than the previous dominant teams.

Finger? And, again refer to the season ratings and what people like Jeremy Clarkson has to say about it.
Dominant Mercedes = MaFIA.

Now, let's just talk about Monza GP 2020, there is a seperate Hamilton & Team Mercedes bashing thread on the forum.


@prasathlr maybe they hate Hamilton too, no one gives a damn about stats and facts. F1 too published that list on the official website because they hate Hamilton.
Oh! the Hamilton fans, such disappointment. First place should be 'given' over to Hamilton on this list too, like the races.

[McLaren Rulez]

Lewis Hamilton really has gotten under some people's skin, hasn't he?

[shibujp]

What should be the objective of an F1 team? Do the best it can constantly pushing the limits or ensure that it keeps it's competiveness reined in just enough so that Formula 1 can be kept exciting?

I want to see the former. Yes races are boring but it is unfair blaming Mercedes and Hamilton for it. And I am not an LH fan. If anything I have a grouse with Mercedes for not giving Bottas an equal chance but that's about it.

Other teams have the option to catch up. They are not floundering because of budget but rather due to clueless managements. For example look at Ferrari. They never provided a supportive stable management for Sebastian. The nearest was Maurizio Arrivabene and they came closest to winning the championship under his stewardship. I am still on the fence with regards to Binnotto. To those saying that Leclerc will take them there are setting themselves up for more heartbreak.

Any team with phases of dominance similar to Mercedes had stable managements similar to Mercedes. Look at Schumacher's era and Red Bull then and now. The Alfa Tauri with Frank Tost. Building a dominant, championship winning team is not just about budgets but has a lot to do with management. I would say it's the single most important pre-requisite.

Placing the blame for boring races at the door of Mercedes is patently unfair. It's upto the other teams to build proper teams that can challenge them in races. They have earned it fair and square. LH walking upto the steward's room did not impress me but at the end of the day it reflects his hunger and total lack of complancency. Look and learn Ferrari!! Until then eat humble pie.

A Ferrari Fan

[DIY410]

There are fans and even fanboys of both Michael Schumacher and Lewis Hamilton here. But I have never seen some one here who hates a F1 driver as much as the person who admits he hates hamilton, well atleast he admits it.

Bottas and Hamilton is no comparison, the later has talents from the day he sat behind a steering wheel. Consistently performing well from karting to F1. Bottas is like Barrichello good but not as good as Michael.

Drivers who can extract the most of the car are Lewis, Max, Alonso, Kimi and Michael.

Lewis is set to pretty much smash most of the F1 records and it takes more then just a fast car to do, one needs talent which Lewis has in spades be it qualifying, tire management, wet race.