[yaji]

Originally Posted by akshay1234

The Fortuner is more stable than the Scorpio, and VSC would help you in an emergency move like you had to make with the Scorpio. It will add to your peace of mind too. Another suggestion, if you don't need a vehicle the size of a Scorpio, and your offroading is limited to the slush near your farmhouse then look at the Yeti. It is much more stable than the Fortuner and has ESP too.

Would you say that the price difference is justified for the VSC feature additions ?

I need a 8 seater (minimum) as i travel with my extended family many a times and hence Yeti is ruled out.

[bluevolt]

Originally Posted by dot

Are both the models (old and new) on sale simultaneously? Wow, didnt know that.

No both models are not selling simultaneously. Here in Delhi also there are couple of old models on display in the showroom which are remains of old stock.

[Manuuj]

I own the Classic Fortuner and have over the last two and half years driven it in all kinds of conditions from slushy mud to flat tarmac. I have never felt like the car has been unstable at any speed or even when swerving to avoid collisions.

VSC is an important feature but i dont miss it in my vehicle. Go for the Classic i say and save the 2 lacs. I prefer the interiors of the Classic Fortuner also. Cheers..

[Tejas@perioimpl]

Originally Posted by Manuuj

VSC is an important feature but i dont miss it in my vehicle.

Just an observation: if you've never had it, you can't miss it now can you?

It's similar to the airbag: I've had in my car and never used it... Go ahead and buy a car without airbags. Just because you've never been a situation where "presumably" the VSC could be handy can't be an excuse to not buy a vehicle with it. This is just my personal opinion.

To the OP: if budget permits, go with the car with better safety features. It's plain old common sense and logical thinking.

[Akshay1234]

Originally Posted by yaji

Would you say that the price difference is justified for the VSC feature additions ?

I need a 8 seater (minimum) as i travel with my extended family many a times and hence Yeti is ruled out.

Well for a 170bhp car especially one like the Fortuner with lots of torque and a high centre of gravity VSC can be a boon. Now you are the one who has been in a topple, if VSC was present I'm reasonably sure it would have stopped that topple. In my opinion it is worth it, its a separate issue the other things like bluetooth and HID headlamps are also great features. I would say go for it, and yes it is worth the price. Saving 2 lacs is not worth your life.

[Manuuj]

Originally Posted by Tejas@perioimpl

Just an observation: if you've never had it, you can't miss it now can you?

It's similar to the airbag: I've had in my car and never used it... Go ahead and buy a car without airbags. Just because you've never been a situation where "presumably" the VSC could be handy can't be an excuse to not buy a vehicle with it. This is just my personal opinion.

To the OP: if budget permits, go with the car with better safety features. It's plain old common sense and logical thinking.

Very true.. i take my words back!

Just meant to say that even though my Fortuner has faced some hairy situations in the past due to tractors that swerve onto an highway and in one instance a completely disinterested cow, it managed to remain stable even though i braked hard and swerved at the same time..akin to the the moose test.

With Airbags i would say.. the more the merrier damn the cost.

Hope thats cleared things up. Cheerio!

[Guderian]

Wooo...this place has been certainly busy !

I haven't been posting anything here because nothing great to update. What with the Admiral merrily chugging along with the standard Toyota predictability and well...boredom. But must say that it is a welcome predictability and boredom - touchwood !
And life sails along on an even keel...and Admiral continues to be one bright sunbeam in life.

Originally Posted by yaji

Hi Guderian,
I have been a regular visitor to TOGO channel for quite sometime now (since the time i have been thinking of upgrading from my Scorpio CRDE) and I' am a big fan of the channel Reading your posts lighten up my day along with giving me lots of info on the T-Fortuner.

Does this feature alone justify the price difference of 2+ lakhs ? Rest of the features are all cosmetic (atleast to me) and hence the price difference is not justified except that its a new and supposedly facelifted model.

I also see that the last post on TOGO channel has been more than a month ago...i hope your sights will turn back here and i will get an opinion on my dilema

Hi yaji,
Many thanks for being around here for a long time and for the kind words too.
Glad that you have finally decided to go in for the Fortuner. Without wanting to sound very biased - I must say that you are taking the right decision if your passion is driving all around the country side !
Coming to Classic Vs New Fortuner debate. Frankly as I see it the Rs 2 L difference in price has been brought about by - the increase in duties and change in base price due to the additional(?) features. The dealer may be wanting to get rid of Classic stocks and therefore could be offering the Classic at the prebudget prices. In Maharashtra there is an increase in the road tax as well for new diesel vehicles as per the new state budget. So the Classics purchased earlier do have an advantage and could hold their prices & demand well. But anyway that's besides the point...
As pointed out, yes I am a quite partial to the looks of the Classic compared to the facelifted one. But I would have liked to have the VSC feature in the Classic too as it is more of an essential/mandatory (?) safety feature on all vehicles sold in the US & Europe. Not able to fathom why it is not so in India - possibly because of the assumption by manufacturers here that driving on sleet/snow and slush is much lesser in India ? Would help, I guess, on rain splattered roads at high speeds...
But yeah not having it on the Admiral - I am not sure how much would it affect me ?!!
And with the VSC only available on the 4X4 MT...I am even more puzzled.

Originally Posted by dot

-Before HG comments, let me quip in quickly!


-We happened to drive the new Fortuner on a rocky off road area with and without the VSC.

- Fast draw Senor dot !
- As I understand the VSC shuts off automatically in 4LL...so it is not for offroading but for stabilising the vehicle in slippery conditions though brake action/s.

Originally Posted by akshay1234

At higher speeds, especially while taking turns it can be a lifesaver considering the Fortuner is not as stable as a sedan. It will also give the driver a little more confidence knowing there is one more electronic aid looking after his every move.

Only in slippery conditions and situations where there is a perceptible loss of grip I thought ?

Originally Posted by yaji

I have had a very bad experience with an earlier scoprio of mine which had turned turtle whilst going down the tarmac and coming back up (going down happened because of an ST bus coming in the wrong lane from opposite side in a near blind turning and i had to get down from the road to avoid a head on collission). I consider myself very lucky to have survived that accident !
At that time i was probably at about 100 Kms speed (cant recall the actual figures till date as things were happening too fast and i did not have the time to glance at the speedometer).

One of the main reasons for going for a Fortuner now is this reason as i often see and hear Scorpios turning turtle on highways with fatal consequences for passengers.

I also happen to drive in slush once in a while during monsoons when i visit my farm which only has a kachha road for approach and can be a mess in the monsoons.

yaji,
That experience of yours with the Scorp turning turtle appears to me not because of loss of grip but simply because of loss of stable equilibrium or the displacement of CoG and not because of slippery conditions. You went off road into low ground and when you pulled out the high CoG and speed did you in - not sure whether a VSC would have helped you there. As I understand the VSC would prevent you from skidding or loosing control on wet, slushy roads. Driving on kachha road - not sure of its value add as you'll anyway be driving slowly and the Fortuner has a much better road grip and stability than the Scorpio. But yeah the VSC is a good safety feature to have.

Originally Posted by yaji

Would you say that the price difference is justified for the VSC feature additions ?

Overall yaji I would say one can't place the entire difference in price on the VSC but I understand where you are coming from - as the other facelifted items don't get your mojo bubblin'.
So if price indeed is a show stopper then go for the Classic Fortuner and be done with it and enjoy the ride is what I'd say !

Originally Posted by Manuuj

I own the Classic Fortuner and have over the last two and half years driven it in all kinds of conditions from slushy mud to flat tarmac. I have never felt like the car has been unstable at any speed or even when swerving to avoid collisions.

VSC is an important feature but i dont miss it in my vehicle. Go for the Classic i say and save the 2 lacs. I prefer the interiors of the Classic Fortuner also. Cheers..

Hey Manuuj,
Since you have the Range Rover and couple of other hot wheels and I am sure the Rangie would have the ESP gizmo - so could you compare the drive dynamics purely from the usefulness angle of that particular gizmo ? Or are you indeed talking from that perspective from the very outset ?

Ummm...what else ?



All's well...and have an almost 4500 KMs run planned for in the month of May.
Will be driving off deep down South to Bangalore-Trivandrum-Coastal Karnataka etc.
Boy am I & Admiral eagerly awaiting that long drive !

[yaji]

Mod Note : Please use the EDIT or MULTI-QUOTE buttons instead of typing one post after another!

Originally Posted by Manuuj

Very true.. i take my words back!

Just meant to say that even though my Fortuner has faced some hairy situations in the past due to tractors that swerve onto an highway and in one instance a completely disinterested cow, it managed to remain stable even though i braked hard and swerved at the same time..akin to the the moose test.

With Airbags i would say.. the more the merrier damn the cost.

Hope thats cleared things up. Cheerio!

HG mentioned that you have a Range rower and was asking you whether your previous statement about the usefulness of ESP in comparison with that. If in case it was not so then is it possible now to give your opinion comparing to that ?

Originally Posted by Guderian

yaji,
That experience of yours with the Scorp turning turtle appears to me not because of loss of grip but simply because of loss of stable equilibrium or the displacement of CoG and not because of slippery conditions. You went off road into low ground and when you pulled out the high CoG and speed did you in - not sure whether a VSC would have helped you there. As I understand the VSC would prevent you from skidding or loosing control on wet, slushy roads. Driving on kachha road - not sure of its value add as you'll anyway be driving slowly and the Fortuner has a much better road grip and stability than the Scorpio. But yeah the VSC is a good safety feature to have.

So if price indeed is a show stopper then go for the Classic Fortuner and be done with it and enjoy the ride is what I'd say !


Hey Manuuj,
Since you have the Range Rover and couple of other hot wheels and I am sure the Rangie would have the ESP gizmo - so could you compare the drive dynamics purely from the usefulness angle of that particular gizmo ? Or are you indeed talking from that perspective from the very outset ?

Thanks for your feedback HG. It was very nice of you.

Price alone actually is not the show stopper here but the looks surely are and thats the problem. If the VSC was being given as an accessory on the classic fortuner then i would have gone for it without blinking an eye lid least bothering about the cost of it even as an accessory.
I dont like the front grill and the amount of chrome on the new fortuner which is why I' am getting into the usefulness part of VSC as thats the only feature that interested me in the new model as compared to the previous one. Even the interiors are not impressive nor the head lamp and tail lamps....so for me if i have to go for the new Fortuner then its only for the VSC and nothing else.

I will look forward for Manuuj's feedback on the Range Rower thing too

HG,
I observed that you have a Bull bar on Admiral but many posts on team-bhp state that the Bull Bar as an accessory can actually be dangerous as it can hinder the air bags from deploying. Is the Bull bar on the Admiral designed to take care of the Air bag issue ?
If yes then please let me know the make and model of the Bull bar thats fit on Admiral.

[Akshay1234]

Originally Posted by Guderian

Only in slippery conditions and situations where there is a perceptible loss of grip I thought ?

Thats right, it doesn't let you lose grip. It seems like its cutting out engine power and braking the wheels just before you lose grip. Also in a car like the Fortuner with its high centre of gravity, sudden or emergency moves can cause a loss of grip, and VSC will help here in bringing it into control. After all there is only so much ABS can do when you are braking. Also say you are taking a corner fast, and you hit a bump, then the car will definitely go out of line. Again VSC can help in a situation like this.

Manuuj can comment on ESP in the Range, but again remember the Range has much better dynamics to start with than the Fortuner.

[Guderian]

Originally Posted by yaji

Price alone actually is not the show stopper here but the looks surely are and thats the problem.
HG,
I observed that you have a Bull bar on Admiral but many posts on team-bhp state that the Bull Bar as an accessory can actually be dangerous as it can hinder the air bags from deploying. Is the Bull bar on the Admiral designed to take care of the Air bag issue ?
If yes then please let me know the make and model of the Bull bar thats fit on Admiral.

Hi yaji,
- My sincere recommendation, keeping in mind what I have understood of the turbulence in your mind, is that you go in for the Classic Fortuner, if you have the option. Appears you may not be able to drown the sorrow of the new Fortuner's appearance - so this seems to be the best option. But if there is an outside chance of your mind accepting the new look and all the chrome then go for the VSC enabled, Naya Fortuner.

- Actually that appendage is not a pucca Bull Bar so to say. It is what Toyota euphemistically calls a Grill Guard. No it is not a bull bar at all...as you see one on a Scorpio. For the simple reason that it is just a HD Plastic appendage. Secondly unlike a bull bar it is not attached to the ladder frame below but hangs on to the bumper for its dear life. Yup it's true ! And yes it is Toyota's own accessory. No issues around pedestrian safety or deployment of air bags. Actually the grill guard needs protection from pedestrians. But yeah it offers a wee bit of protection from fast flying flies and insects (!) - so why not. And yes it looks good to my eye...though after a years use it now looks a little bedraggled. Have not been able to keep the black plastic in good nick so it looks a little leucoderma-ed.
I am not sure whether the new Fortuner with all the chrome would have this as an accessory from Toyota... but the Classic - yes. So another reason for you to plug for the Classic perhaps ?!!

Originally Posted by akshay1234

Thats right, it doesn't let you lose grip. It seems like its cutting out engine power and braking the wheels just before you lose grip...

I think on the Fortuner the VSC plays around only with the brakes and the engine power cut down is not a part of the system.

[Akshay1234]

Originally Posted by Guderian

I think on the Fortuner the VSC plays around only with the brakes and the engine power cut down is not a part of the system.

All stability systems work in the same way, I've used ESP, TCS, VSA, ASR, DSC, DTC. By limiting engine power along with braking the wheels. Without limiting engine power the brakes will just be under that much more strain and wear out faster.

Contrary to what you say, whether the 'classic' looks better or not, safety is safety. And after a person has already been in a topple its worth paying for the peace of mind knowing that it wont happen again.

[Guderian]

Originally Posted by akshay1234

All stability systems work in the same way. By limiting engine power along with braking the wheels. Without limiting engine power the brakes will just be under that much more strain and wear out faster.

Contrary to what you say, whether the classic looks better or not, safety is safety. And after a person has already been in a topple its worth paying for the peace of mind knowing that it wont happen again.

If you were to check the literature on ESPs you'll see that only some of the ESPs work on the mode of limiting engine power. Many of the ESPs work on the individual wheel differentiated brake application method.
No doubt safety is safety. If you see my previous post on the topic you'll see that fact well established in the mind. Further much depends on the driving style. Again, if you see the earlier post, I had mentioned that the earlier topple may not have been avoided with the VSC based on the circumstances as I've understood and the feel of the Scorpio I have as an ex-user.

[Akshay1234]

Originally Posted by Guderian

If you were to check the literature on ESPs you'll see that only some of the ESPs work on the mode of limiting engine power. Many of the ESPs work on the individual wheel differentiated brake application method.
No doubt safety is safety. If you see my previous post on the topic you'll see that fact well established in the mind. Further much depends on the driving style. Again, if you see the earlier post, I had mentioned that the earlier topple may not have been avoided with the VSC based on the circumstances as I've understood and the feel of the Scorpio I have as an ex-user.

I infact just read the wiki article, and though it says some stability systems limit the throttle, I have not come across one which does not. Perhaps you could point me to one specific stability system which only limits the brakes.

Yes it does depend on driving style, but even the most safe of drivers may be forced to make an emergency move. Being an ex-user you do know the Scorpio well, but I don't think any of us can confidently say VCS wouldn't have helped in that crash. VSC includes 2 things, one is a traction control which reduces wheelspin under acceleration, and the second is stability control which works when the car doesn't seem to be going where the steering is pointed.

[Manuuj]

I dont think it is possible really to compare the two brutes in terms of drive dynamics. The Range Rover is over a 100 bhp more than the Fortuner and has a completely different feel to it.

The RSC or Roll Stability Control is coupled with Electronic Brakeforce Distribution (EBD) and Emergency Brake Assist (EBA).

The Range Rover GVW is 3200 kgs to the Fortuners 2510 kgs but it feels much much lighter and nimble. On twisty hill roads it has very little body roll and covers distances at a faster rate than the Fortuner.

The steering is very light and precise also.

The Fortuner is also very precise but much heavier to steer. But all the same i have never felt the Fortuner losing grip or control any any stage in its 53,000 kms covered so far.

Both are different but capable beasts. Hope this helps.

[dkaile]

The Classic Fortuner will not loose grip under most driving conditions. Though VSC would definitely be liked but its not a make or break thing. It would be very difficult to topple a Fortuner unlike say a Scorpio.

If you like the looks Yaji, go for it...