[VijayAnand1]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

Yesterday, I had a long meeting with 2 gentlemen from Suzuki's service division. One was the regional service head for Kerala and the other was the local service head for Cochin...

It is probably best for us, as motorcycle owners, to accept that this is how it is. I accepted their point without arguing.

The most important question that I had for them was exactly what TBHPian VijayAnand1 also asked about - Will these vibrations haunt the VStrom 250?

As per the 2 gentlemen,
- The Suzuki VStrom 250 engine is around 80% similar to that of the Gixxer and Gixxer SF. I didnt press them on what the exact differences were.
- Suzuki has sold around 100 VStrom 250s in Kerala, thus far.
- Being a new-ish launch, there is special attention being given to the VStrom 250, from a service perspective, to ensure that any reported issues get flagged immediately.
- No owner has complained about the issue of excess vibrations.
- It was impossible to identify why the same vibration problems havent replicated themselves in the VStrom 250.

I guess that officially wraps up an unpleasant saga. In summary, it is what it is.

Suzuki has corrected the inherent engine design characteristic / trait, and / or worked on mounting, resonance etc, prior to releasing the VStrom 250. My (un?)educated guess is that the vibration issues from the Gixxer / SF 250, will not find their way to the VStrom 250.

Neil, every point you've highlighted above is exactly what I've wanted to hear back from you and your conversation with the team and the concerned Suzuki officials. What's interesting to know from your post is how this issue crops after the motor clocking in a set no of kms, i.e. upwards of 5k kms and how discreetly Suzuki has taken a 'sweep it under the mat' approach.

Another dissident is how can Suzuki handicap their Gixxer couterpart vis-a-vis their V Strom counterpart is beyond me. I sincerely believe there's more to this issue than what meets the eye, unless we as owners are given a justifiable answer from someone higher up in the R&D which is tall order I guess.

But Neil, what you've done here is not the end of a saga, it's the beginning of a new awareness saga that should reach every 250 owners out there.

Originally Posted by Sebring

The VSTROM 250 has more hard wearing parts which are more expensive. The metullurgy is different, I was told

Interesting one Seb. Now, this answer definitely has piqued my dive a bit deeper in conjunction to what Neil has dedicated his time to gather. May we all know who informed you of this information, because it can perhaps help dissect the issue even further.

Cheers!
VJ

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by VijayAnand1

Another dissident is how can Suzuki handicap their Gixxer couterpart vis-a-vis their V Strom counterpart is beyond me.

Could also be that not many VStrom owners have crossed these milestones for the reports to flow in. The other two 250s have been in the market for much longer.

I doubt Suzuki has a separate metallurgy (as claimed) for just one bike from the same shared platform.

[SkylineGTR]

Hey there neil.jericho, thank you for keeping us all updated. I agree with you that Suzuki should have voluntarily replaced the entire series of parts on affected motorcycles. Instead, looks like they are unwilling to take responsibility

The SF 250 was always my first choice of motorcycle. I'd always found it a very good looking motorcycle and the specs were to my liking as well. I'd even taken a test ride back in June/July and was almost set on buying one. However after following this thread I started to have second thoughts. That the bike has issues is bad enough, but that Suzuki would be so unhelpful and left their customer helpless and running around was completely unacceptable to me, and last week, I took delivery of the FZ 25. It was not on my list originally, because of its low power output and no 6th gear. But after weighing pros and cons I decided to compromise on performance and preserve my sanity instead.

Do you expect this "mini-overhaul" has fixed the vibration issue permanently? Or do you think they will come back after some more kilometers?

[neil.jericho]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

- Meanwhile, my friend who is based out of North Kerala, had booked an appointment at Apco Suzuki in Calicut. The technical team connected the vibration test tool to his bike and found that while there were vibrations at 5,000 RPM, it was within Suzuki's tolerance level. I explained all this to my service advisor and asked him to check if the tool was at their SVC in Cochin. I also sent my service advisor several links regarding this problem, including TBHPian SubodhRage's thread ("Free" Hassles at the Suzuki Motorcycle After Sales-Service, Delhi).

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

Yesterday, I had a long meeting with 2 gentlemen from Suzuki's service division. One was the regional service head for Kerala and the other was the local service head for Cochin. Along with us, were the manager and the service advisor of the Suzuki superbike showroom in Kerala. Ever since the vibration issues crept up in my bike, on multiple occassions, I had requested for a call from the local service head, but that had never materialized, due to reasons best known to Suzuki officials.

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

- I explained that the Suzuki vibration test 'tool' was a ridiculous device. As per the 2 gentlemen, it is not the only criterion based on which Suzuki will approve a warranty claim, in line with their limited "official" recall.

During my discussion with the 2 gentlemen from Suzuki's service division, I had detailed my friend's (and newly minted TBHPian) experience with Apco Suzuki, with regard to investigating the excessive vibrations. His motorcycle's symptoms mirrored mine, and yet, Suzuki approved the warranty replacement on my motorcycle, while denying the same, with his. Im not finding fault with Apco Suzuki. They did the test with the infamous Suzuki vibration test "tool" and the bike didnt "fail" the test.

After hearing me out, the regional service head for Kerala promised to look into the case, and check whether the same warranty replacement would apply to my friend's motorcycle. Based on our discussion, I sent an email to the regional service head for Kerala, with photographs of the motorcycle, requesting him to check if the warranty replacement would be applicable. Also, my friend was facing issues due to the low availability of spare parts in Suzuki dealerships in North Kerala.

My friend's Gixxer SF250 with 14,300 kilometers on the odometer

Despite sending a thorough email to the regional service head for Kerala, with all these points and contact details, nobody from Suzuki has reached out to my friend. It has been a week now. So much for my belief that the officials from Suzuki will be putting in genuine effort to make things right.

Sadly, Suzuki is back to sweeping things under the rug, unless you complain long and hard, on a platform such as Team BHP. This is exactly how Suzuki should not be handling customer complaints, and yet, chooses to do so

[neil.jericho]

My friend and ace mechanic from F Motors, took my GSXRRRRR for a short spin. His feedback on the engine matched what I had posted earlier on this thread
- Below 6,000 RPM, he found the motorcycle was really smooth!
- From 6,000 RPM onwards, there was a slight buzz from the footpegs and the handlebar. As per his experience, that is par for course, considering that it is a single cylinder motorcycle.

I only wish that he had the opportunity to ride the motorcycle in its honeymoon phase of the first 6,000 kilometers, when it was smooth all through the rev range!

Originally Posted by VijayAnand1

Another dissident is how can Suzuki handicap their Gixxer couterpart vis-a-vis their V Strom counterpart is beyond me. I sincerely believe there's more to this issue than what meets the eye, unless we as owners are given a justifiable answer from someone higher up in the R&D which is tall order I guess.

Im almost sure that Suzuki's finance team and their engineering team had a massive showdown regarding whether they ought to recall all the Gixxer and Gixxer SF motorcycles. In the corporate world, the finance team always wins these battles!

Originally Posted by Sebring

The VSTROM 250 has more hard wearing parts which are more expensive. The metullurgy is different, I was told

Sebring, Im guessing that with the amount of riding that you are doing, your motorcycle must have crossed 25K to 30K kms by now. Do you have any further observations on the smoothness of the engine on your bike? Barring the initial 1,600 kms of roughness, Im guessing that it is all smooth sailing for 'Yalla'.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Could also be that not many VStrom owners have crossed these milestones for the reports to flow in. The other two 250s have been in the market for much longer.

I doubt Suzuki has a separate metallurgy (as claimed) for just one bike from the same shared platform.

Dr CD, I find myself agreeing with your line of thinking.

Originally Posted by SkylineGTR

The SF 250 was always my first choice of motorcycle. I'd always found it a very good looking motorcycle and the specs were to my liking as well. I'd even taken a test ride back in June/July and was almost set on buying one. However after following this thread I started to have second thoughts. That the bike has issues is bad enough, but that Suzuki would be so unhelpful and left their customer helpless and running around was completely unacceptable to me, and last week, I took delivery of the FZ 25. It was not on my list originally, because of its low power output and no 6th gear. But after weighing pros and cons I decided to compromise on performance and preserve my sanity instead.

Do you expect this "mini-overhaul" has fixed the vibration issue permanently? Or do you think they will come back after some more kilometers?

SkylineGTR, congratulations on your new Yamaha FZ25. A friend who is a fellow TBHPian picked up one last year and he is very happy with it. I too ignored the FZ 25, for the same reasons as you have listed. In hindsight, I might have been better served in picking up the FZ 25, barring my track riding plans. But, as I tell myself, at least the outcome of my battles with Suzuki can help other existing owners, and the larger riding community.

[Sebring]

Hi Neil. I have a 6-8 month overseas assignment, post which I'll be riding the bike again. Unfortunately it's not being ridden currently. I'll update you once I resume

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

Sebring, Im guessing that with the amount of riding that you are doing, your motorcycle must have crossed 25K to 30K kms by now. Do you have any further observations on the smoothness of the engine on your bike? Barring the initial 1,600 kms of roughness, Im guessing that it is all smooth sailing for 'Yalla'.

[organicsuj]

Thanks Neil for sharing your experiences. I am planning to get a quarter litre soon and 250 sf was up there in the top of the list. I'll reconsider the order now.

[DRIV3R]

This could also be due to the clip-on handlebars in the SF250 as opposed to the regular bars in the Gixxer 250 naked and V Strom 250.

[b16h22]

Originally Posted by DRIV3R

This could also be due to the clip-on handlebars in the SF250 as opposed to the regular bars in the Gixxer 250 naked and V Strom 250.

I can confirm that this is not true. The naked Gixxer with regular flat bars also suffer from the vibes. It is not the kind of buzz that's normally associated with big singles. It feels like an engineering issue from Suzuki

[b16h22]

Originally Posted by SubodhRage

[*] the throttle body because I noticed that I felt vibrations more while accelerating as well. Please note over here that I wasn't lugging the engine at this point, I was shifting at close to 3-5K min, and I tried to ooze out a bit more power by yanking the throttle a bit more. Could be that the engine is not that tractable in real?
I do remember that previously it used to be able to shift at 3-4K rpm and still give a punch!

Hey, did you ever look into the throttle body or fuelling angle? On the recent Gixxer I've acquired, the fuelling seems a bit hit and miss and somehow connected to the vibes. There is a hesitancy and the feeling of engine lugging at times when you crack open the throttle in lower rpms and lets say 3rd or 4th gear and it feels perfectly alright the other times. I'm not talking about doing 20 in 5th gear here, more like 30 in 3rd. It's like the engine takes a few milliseconds to respond from closed throttle. It also vibes quite a lot when it does that. My old Duke 390 used to be very picky about being in the right gear for the right rpms but even that didn't use to do to this extent

I would also like to see if the valve clearances are out of spec. I do hear a good deal of valvetrain chatter at idle. The bike is 15k run and I don't think it was ever checked or adjusted. According to the manual, Suzuki specifies a valve clearance check every 5k. Since these are shim type, I bet they'll take their own sweet time to do that as they have to measure and order the correct sized shims

[neil.jericho]

Suzuki's 250cc engine that is shared between the naked Gixxer, the faired Gixxer SF and the pseudo adventure VStrom, has been a cause of consternation for many owners. While the VStrom 250 owners seem to be a happy lot, the Gixxer and Gixxer SF owners have been struggling with the vibration issues on their motorcycles. Thanks to Team BHP, several of us owners have had a singular platform to share our frustrating experiences.

I believe that there are 2 separate issues, that we have conflated thus far. Once we unentangle them, all the problems that were faced by owners, are probably easily explained.

Problem #1 is the silky smooth engine refinement going for a toss at ~ 6,000 km mark.

Problem #2 is the engine's Achilles heel of it's oil cooling system.

Problem #1 - Balancer Related
For the Gixxer and Gixxer SF 250 motorcycles, what has been established so far is that
- out of the box, the engine is butter smooth all through the rev range. There is 1 exception to this, though. An unsold motorcycle had excess vibrations which were similar to what the rest of us find on our bikes.
- the 250 cc engine breaks in at roughly around the 6,000 kilometer mark. That is when the annoying vibrations start creeping in. Again, there are a few exceptions which I have found but this 6,000 kilometer distance seems to be the ballpark.
- rather than do a pan India recall for the Gixxer and SF 250, Suzuki did a face saving recall for 199 motorcycles that were manufactured in a particular time period. It has been proven that motorcycles made both, before and after, that time frame, suffer from the same excessive vibrations.
- motorcycles that have gotten this balancer related warranty fix done, are a lot smoother than before. Bear in mind that these engines are still not as smooth as what they were in the first 6,000 kilometers.

By the end of December, the Suzuki superbike dealership in Cochin had done the warranty recall fix on my bike. In early January, I observed the vibrations were shifting left, which was a phenomenon that really puzzled me.

Since then, Ive had the opportunity to clock several thousand kilometers on my motorcycle, most of it while touring. In parallel, I have been chatting with a couple of TBHPians who own the Gixxer and / or the SF 250 and our observations are exactly the same. I believe that now, I have a fair idea on what is behind these unsolved, left behind vibrations that tend to "shift left". This leads us to ...

Problem 2 - Oil Cooling System Related
In order to understand this issue, below are the observations that led to my conclusion
- The sweet spot while touring continuously, is an indicated 90 kmph (actual speed 81 kmph) which is when the engine is spinning at 6,000 RPM in 6th gear. From this point onward, the vibrations increase, almost linearly. Its best to stick to this cruising speed and avoid the fatigue inducing vibrations.
- While on a highway ride, I find that the vibrations start to increase after ~ 45 minutes.
- On day 1 of a multi-day solo ride, I took a coffee break almost an hour after I left home. When I got back onto the motorcycle, I found that it was a lot smoother than when I stopped. After some time though, when I repeated this, the engine wasnt as smooth when I restarted my riding. Basically, half way into a day long ride and / or in the afternoons, the engine's vibrations were noticeably more pronounced than before.

I checked this with different TBHPians and all of them confirmed that they have seen the exact same thing on their bikes.

This leads me to believe that the real weak point of the engine is its oil-cooled system. To reduce the engineering complexity and cost of ownership, Suzuki has opted for an oil cooled system, rather than the traditional liquid cooling system that is adopted by say, the TVS Apache RR310 or the Honda CBR250. Ironically, while the oil cooling system does a phenomenal job of keeping the engine temperature under control (this engine simply never gets hot!), the engine oil falters in what should have been its primary responsibility! Apparently, the 250 platform comes with a fan, which I have never heard coming on.

As a result, in the mornings, the oil is able to cool faster, while the rider takes a tea break. Thus, the motorcycle appears to smooth after a 15 minute break.

On the other hand, once the ambient temperatures are high, the oil needs a lot more time to cool down. Thus, the motorcycle appears to be less smooth after a 15 minute break, as compared to the same situation occurring a few hours before.

Simply put, Suzuki's approach to value engineering a simple bike for select (less discerning?) markets, has led to this unrefined and gruff engine.

In the grand scheme of things, whether or not owners get the balancer problem sorted out under warranty (a saga in its own right), their motorcycles will still face the issue of the oil cooling system being unable to keep the engine smooth, when it run continuously on highway trips.

Long story short, what does this mean for commuters?
Absolutely nothing! The Gixxer 250 and the Gixxer SF 250 are great bikes for commuting. They are nimble and have more than enough performance for city conditions, without feeling suffocated. At the same time, you will easily get a mileage of 35+ kmpl.

Long story short, what does this mean for tourers?
Even if your motorcycle gets the warranty recall done, the 250cc platform isnt great for sports touring. While doing a day long ride / weekend ride / multi-day ride, you cannot keep stopping every 45 minutes and wait for the oil to cool. As a best practice, I typically stop once every 60 minutes to take a water break and keep my mind fresh. Ive had to reduce that to 55 minutes or sometimes even 50 minutes. These frequent stops can get a bit frustrating while touring. Also, to reduce vibrations, you have to keep your GPS speeds in the 80 to 100 kmph zone, which is rather low for a 250cc motorcycle. Unless you are a slow highway rider, this may not be the best motorcycle for hardcore tourers.

In summary
It is sad that Suzuki, a company which has built its reputation on manufacturing over-engineered engines, has come up with this cost engineered platform which has such a glaring weakness. You dont need to be a rocket scientist to know that the level of R&D which has gone into this, is nowhere close to a similar offering from the very same company that is sold in global markets.

That said, most owners have made their peace with the roughness post 6,000 kilometers and are happily enjoying their motorcycles. Barring the engine, there is literally nothing that we can really criticize of the Gixxer and Gixxer SF 250, unless we are really being picky. My suggestion to fellow 250cc owners is to push your local dealer for getting the balancer recall done under warranty. Then, see if you can manage with the reduced vibrations and try out different engine oils to make things smoother.

[b16h22]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

Problem 2 - Oil Cooling System Related
In order to understand this issue, below are the observations that led to my conclusion

Attachment 2435617

Neil, this is very interesting as these were my exact thoughts while coming back after picking up my Gixxer 250 naked, two days ago. Over a course of 90 kilometers in really hot KL weather and roads with medium to heavy traffic, I observed the exact same symptoms. In fact I was even contemplating on trying out 10w50 oil grade to see if there are any improvements in oil viscosity when it gets hot. Whenever the bike was stuck behind other vehicles for long periods without any clean air moving past the bike, the engine felt gruff. I started to wonder why Suzuki didn't even bother with cooling fins for the engine. It doesn't throw any heat to the rider's legs like an LC bike but the engine characteristics change significantly when it gets hot. I have personally felt even the tractability goes for a toss.

I took out the bike next morning just tot observe the characteristics and found the first 5 kms incredibly smooth but it got progressively worse as I rode on in traffic and morning heat.

Before I bought the Gixxer, I had a discussion with a friend of mine who owns a Strom 250 in KA and he was mentioning about some vibes kicking in after he crossed the 7000km mark. I asked him if the engine was hot and he said yes. The bike used to be perfectly smooth before. And he said he didn't notice the vibes at night the same day. I'll keep an eye on his bike to see how that situation develops. Unfortunately he had a mild accident and the bike is in SVC waiting for parts.

I'll update my findings in coming days. I just put 120kms over the 15k by the previous owner. My Duke 390 had out of spec (tight) valve clearances at 32k used to have similar behavior. It used to be gruff when it was hot. I wish I could open up my valve cover and check the clearances myself to see if something is wrong. Since it is under warranty I'm not taking that risk for a while.

[ITZ_Zeta]

Originally Posted by b16h22

.In fact I was even contemplating on trying out 10w50 oil grade to see if there are any improvements in oil viscosity when it gets hot. Whenever the bike was stuck behind other vehicles for long periods without any clean air moving past the bike, the engine felt gruff.

I took out the bike next morning just tot observe the characteristics and found the first 5 kms incredibly smooth but it got progressively worse as I rode on in traffic and morning heat.

My SF250 mirrors the exact symptoms too. Last month was able to get the warranty fix for the balancer gear from Suzuki but unfortunately, it hadn't made much difference in vibration post 6000 rpm. I was doubtful about the effectiveness of the oil cooling system from the start. Not once I have heard the oil cooler fan kick in even in deadlock traffic and I was seriously thinking if the fan is working as intended or not. Early starts during the ride subjected my SF250 to cooler ambient temperatures here in Wayanad and the bike was smooth at those times. But after a few hours of riding, the vibration becomes more and more noticeable with the increase in operating temperature. The next step will be to try using different grade engine oil and this is what I got from the workshop manual.

[b16h22]

Originally Posted by ITZ_Zeta

My SF250 mirrors the exact symptoms too. Last month was able to get the warranty fix for the balancer gear from Suzuki but unfortunately, it hadn't made much difference in vibration post 6000 rpm. I was doubtful about the effectiveness of the oil cooling system from the start. Not once I have heard the oil cooler fan kick in even in deadlock traffic and I was seriously thinking if the fan is working as intended or not. Early starts during the ride subjected my SF250 to cooler ambient temperatures here in Wayanad and the bike was smooth at those times. But after a few hours of riding, the vibration becomes more and more noticeable with the increase in operating temperature. The next step will be to try using different grade engine oil and this is what I got from the workshop manual.

Attachment 2436708

I didn't even know it came with a fan for the oil cooler until Neil's last post . I have managed to get the bike fairly hot in stop and go traffic and it never came on. It got so much hot that there was a little oil weep from the head cover gasket. Wonder what's the trigger temp for the fan to come on. The ambient temps in TCR is close to 40 degrees these days.

I might try a different grade oil just as an experiment. Been noticing the gearshifts getting harder and harsher as the engine gets hotter. It is normally fairly slick.

[neil.jericho]

Originally Posted by b16h22

Whenever the bike was stuck behind other vehicles for long periods without any clean air moving past the bike, the engine felt gruff. I started to wonder why Suzuki didn't even bother with cooling fins for the engine. It doesn't throw any heat to the rider's legs like an LC bike but the engine characteristics change significantly when it gets hot. I have personally felt even the tractability goes for a toss.

While riding, it isnt often that I find myself being stationary for an extended duration. Even if Im riding continuously, the engine oil gets hot and the consequentially, the engine loses its smoothness. Hence, I can think we can safely assume that the issue is not down to the lack of airflow / supplementary air cooling.

Originally Posted by b16h22

I'll update my findings in coming days. I just put 120kms over the 15k by the previous owner. My Duke 390 had out of spec (tight) valve clearances at 32k used to have similar behavior. It used to be gruff when it was hot. I wish I could open up my valve cover and check the clearances myself to see if something is wrong. Since it is under warranty I'm not taking that risk for a while.

This is an interesting theory. I checked with a friend of mine who runs a motorcycle garage. He felt that the problems are not likely to arise from out of specification valves. There is nothing wrong with checking it, of course, but I doubt that it will sort things out.

Originally Posted by b16h22

I didn't even know it came with a fan for the oil cooler until Neil's last post . I have managed to get the bike fairly hot in stop and go traffic and it never came on.

I didnt even know that it came with a fan for the oil cooler until I saw a video mentioning it

Originally Posted by b16h22

Before I bought the Gixxer, I had a discussion with a friend of mine who owns a Strom 250 in KA and he was mentioning about some vibes kicking in after he crossed the 7000km mark. I asked him if the engine was hot and he said yes. The bike used to be perfectly smooth before. And he said he didn't notice the vibes at night the same day. I'll keep an eye on his bike to see how that situation develops. Unfortunately he had a mild accident and the bike is in SVC waiting for parts.

You know, ever since I began to dissect the symptoms and successfully (?) isolated it down to the underperforming oil cooling system, I realized that the VStrom 250 is likely to have the exact same problem, when the engine oil is hot. The recent VStrom 250 video from MotorInc clearly mentions that the engine and gearing are from the Gixxer 250s, unchanged.

Now I wonder, how have Suzuki VStrom 250 owners (barring your friend, that is) not complained about this issue?

One potential factor could be that they are running the bikes for shorter durations / commuting with it, and hence, there isnt enough time for the engine oil to heat up, and cause the infamous vibrations. Also, many VStrom 250 owners might not be hardcore enthusiasts who obsess over every fine detail. Hence, they many not be able to observe these issues, the same way as almost all Suzuki Gixxer / SF 250 owners dont complain about excessive vibrations, even when its clearly there (if you know how to look). Lastly, the VStrom 250 is a market flop, so the sample set is negligible.

Overall, this is a very productive and engaging thread but the truth is that the Suzuki 250 motorcycles are simply not cut out for doing sustained touring speeds of 90-100 kmph. Hence, my bike is slowly on the way out the garage.