|25th May 2008, 12:34||#1|
The FIAT 1100/Premier Padmini Technical Information thread
I have been thinking over this for a long time. After browsing over the forum for nearly more than 2 years I have found many Fiat (1100/ President/Padmini) enthusiasts with some of the most awesome Fiats in the world. Also we have some very resourceful and intelligent people like Mr. Behram Dhabhar (DHABHAR.BEHRAM) and Ronny Vesuna (President) and Karlos (karlosdeville) with their vast knowledge about the above car.
With the permission from Mr. Dhabhar I have compiled some Fiat specific articles (written by him) which were found on the forum and would surely enhance the Fiat driving experience.
The first article we have is about tuning the car right. This extract is taken from Mr. Dhabhar’s post on the forum
The FIAT tuning process:
Hey Guys - 120 Kmph In A Fiat Is Very Common For Me. I Have Done Baroda to Mumbai (440 Kms) In 5 And A Half Hours. I Have Done Mahabaleshwar To Mumbai In 3 And A Half Hours Many Times. I Have Touched 70 Mph (112 Kmph) In A 1964 Left Hand Drive Fiat 1221 Cc.
There Is A Correct Way To Do It. It Is All About Tuning. Obviously The Engine Must Be In Perfect Tune, But You Also Need To Tune The Chassis For Ride And Handling. Surprised? Read On!
The Most Important Thing Is Valve Timing. First Of All, You Need To Know Whether The Camshaft Lobes Are Still Having Full Lift. If No, Then Whatever You Do Will Not Work. The "chaal" Of An Untuned Engine Will Tell You Whether The Cam Is Ok And The Engine Is Tuneable. I Can State Here With Full Confidence That I Have Yet To Come Across A Single Mechanic Who Knows The "exact Procedure" To Set Valve Timing (in Common Jargon - Replacing The Timing Chain). Once This Is Done As It Should Be Done (the Process Is Quite Long So I Will Send It Across To Karlosdeville And Request Him To Put It Across To You All), The Next Thing To Tackle Is The Much Maligned Distributor.
I Have Yet To Come Across A Single Mechanic Who "does Not Put Grease" In The Distributor. It Is Common Sense. The Centrifugal Advance Can Only Work If The Weights Fly Apart. How Will The Weights Ever Fly If They Are Constrained By Grease ? Then Everybody Blames The Car. A "greased" Distributor Takes Around 4 Hours To Clean. I Have The Patience To Do All This. Once Done, The Dwell Angle Is 60 Degrees, The Ignition Timing Is 10 Degrees Btdc For Non-s1 Engines And 7 Degrees Btdc For S1 Engines, But You Need To Be Clear What The Timing Mark On The Pulley Indicates. There Are 3 Types Of Pulleys, So Be Careful. If There Is Only One Mark, It Is Tdc. If There Are 4 Marks, The Single Mark Is Tdc And The Other Three Marks Are 8 Degrees, 10 Degrees And 12 Degrees Btdc For Non-s1 Cars And 5 Degrees, 7 Degrees And 9 Degrees Btdc For S1 Cars. The Next In Line Is The Carburettor.
The Best Carburettor Is The Solex Mcs1061. This Has An Internal Vent, Has An Econostat And Comes With A 97.5 Size Main Jet But For Optimum Performance without Deterioration Of Fuel Economy, You Need To Use A 102 Size Main Jet, Otherwise Do Not Disturb Any Other Part, Especially The Emulsion Tube. The Idling Speed Must Be Set To 720 +/- 20 Rpm. Vacuum Should Me More Than 480 Mm Of Hg Measured In The Intake Manifold.
I Have Yet Come Across A Mechanic Who Has Correct Tappet Guages. The Specification Is 0.1 Mm In Dead Cold Condition. You Can Try This. If You Set To 0.1 Mm In Dead Cold Condition, You Will Get 0.35 Mm In Hot Condition, Which Will Cause A Good Amount Of Mechanical Clatter. The Process Is To Set The Tappets In A Hot Engine With The Engine Idling And Set It To 0.2 Mm (8 Thou) Intake And 0.25 Mm (10 Thou) Exhaust Valves. From The Fan Backwards, The Valves Are E-i-i-e-e-i-i-e.
The Clutch - Use A Good Msl Make Clutch With Original Actuating Links. There Should Be No Undue Clearence In The Links. Free Play Is Around 15 To 19 Mm.
Most Important - Use Original Spider Assemblies Only - Nothing Else Will Work. Use New Control Arms And Thread The Spiders Without Any Clearence. Then Set The Camber To Zero And Caster To +2 Degrees Without Load (the Original Spec Is With Load But The Alternate Without Load Gives A Fairly Accurate Result).
Use Production 3.5j*14 Wheels. The Offset Is +31 Mm. There Were Some 4j Wheels Released In 1994 Cars And If You Can Lay Your Hands On Those, So Much The Better. Do Not Use 118ne Wheels. The Offset Is 37 Mm So The Track Will Reduce By 12 Mm. Set The Tyre Pressure To 25/27 Psi Front/back In Dead Cold Condition.
Set The Steering Gear Clearence To Just Zero. Use 220 Cc Of Sae140 Oil In The Steering Gearbox.
The Cooling System:
You Need To Have A Good Radiator And Hoses. If You Can Use A Degassing Tank, It Is Ideal.
Then Drive @ 120 Kmph. I Do It For A Short Stretch Everytime I Do Mumbai Pune Or Mumbai Nasik (at 50 Bucks A Litre, It Is Ok Only For A Small Distance). All My Cars Regularly Give Me 15 Kmpl. I Have A Mikuni In One Car But I Have Not Yet Evaluated It Much As I Use This Car Only Once A Year.
The next article is on getting the maximum possible juice out of the stock car headlamps for the best possible night driving experience.
Hello everybody – I have been scanning the headlights section for quite sometime and everybody has very similar queries. Which bulb / relay to use, how to wire etc. I believe that I have done some work on improving my cars’ headlights. I used to rally and as good headlights were an absolute necessity to go fast at night during the events. Also that my car’s headlights are very important to me so all my cars have the best headlights that I can fit in them. I am sharing my experiences with you. My request is that if you exactly follow everything written here – word by word and line – by – line, then your headlights will be very good. If you deviate, your headlights will not give you what you want from them. Needless to say, this communication is indicative of actual steps to be taken to ensure a delightful experience.
This communication covers only normal headlights with bulbs. As far as Xenon is concerned, I will provide details later.
Wires – use only FINOLEX wires of nominal size "65" series or more for all major connections. Use only FINOLEX wires of nominal size "14" series for switch actuating circuits. Nowadays, 84 series wires supercede 65 series wires. These are available and cost around Rs 1200 worth for some 20 odd meters. These are available in 2 shops in Opera House in Mumbai. One of the shops is General Auto Electric and Trading Co Ltd. (owned by Maheshbhai, my old headlight contact for more than 25 years).
Reflectors – cars now have their own equipment as supplied. Stick to the original reflectors. Do not go for aftermarket reflectors. If your car’s reflectors have "dulled" in any way, please install new ones. Look for the brightness in reflectors. Tell the shopkeeper to show you six out of which you choose two. He generally grumbles but complies and you get to pick up the best. Avoid reflectors, which have some sort of "pin-hole" indentations in them as light can get reflected incorrectly.
Round reflectors – the best headlight illumination still comes out of good old-fashioned round reflectors. There are 3 makes to choose from, don’t even think of anything else. Lucas TVS is still the best in terms of focus-ability, beam definition, beam strength, beam uniformity and beam reach but these are becoming increasingly hard to find, so if you get good ones, buy and keep them. Lumax reflectors are cheap, easily available but lacks the beam that a good Lucas TVS gives (I purchased Lumax and threw them out the next day). Hella India gives a decent compromise performance. Do not use reflectors which have the small light bulb holder built into them as it affects the sheer performance in terms of beam pattern and consistency. Also please do not use reflectors which have the typical pock marked design available all across now (OE on new Ambies). Reflectors come equipped to handle either a P43t bulb or a P45t bulb (refer below).
Bulbs – All new cars come equipped with what is known as a "P43t" type of bulb. This essentially is a bulb, which has 3 tangs sticking out radially at the mounting face. An asymmetrical location of the tangs ensures that the bulb fits the reflector at one location only. This ensures that the filaments are correctly located with respect to the focal point in the reflector. Before "P43t" became the accepted norm, the bulbs used to come in a "P45t" configuration. This consists of a round shallow dish, which has an angular locator on it. This matches the reflector. First see what reflector you have and then match the bulbs because P43t and P45t are absolutely not interchangeable. When you purchase bulbs, it is important to hold them from the base and look at the glass envelope. It should be perpendicular to the mounting face. I have seen innumerable "bent" bulbs, which will just not work, as the filaments will not get located at the focal point. See around 10 bulbs to choose 2. Before the P43t and the P45t days, there used to be a "Lucas TVS type" bulb but it is now more or less obsolete. I am using GE make 140/110 bulbs in my FIATS. They are awesome (but very costly too).
Wattage – The rule here is simple – more is better – more is brighter – more is whiter. Remember to purchase from a reliable shop / person only as there are umpteen number of fakes floating around (Maheshbhai of Opera House and his son Hitesh have been supplying to me for so long now, I am not a customer to them any more).
Bulb connectors – now this is a tough one. The best thing to do is not to have anything, just solder the wires on the flat terminals (I have been doing this for all my rallies). Just recently there is a connector in the market made of ceramic, which I have just fitted on my FIAT, and I am monitoring the performance. The wires, which come with these connectors, are nowhere near Finolex quality so if you still want to use the connectors, use only the last one-inch or so. Let the Finolex come all the way upto the bulb.
Earth connection – this is most important. Please DO NOT use the earth connection provided in the car, as it will not be able to cater to the additional performance need. Fabricate earth connectors from the Finolex wires, use round brass connectors at the earth end and solder the wire to the connector rigidly. Use an existing earth connector in the car to ground the joint (usually it would be an M6*1.0 size bolt to the body).
Relays – previously mechanically operated relays were available from a company called PMP Auto (Goregaon based). There were 2 types, the so-called 5 point or the 6 point. Connections are basically simple, there is a positive connection, two actuating points connect to the changeover switch and two points connect to the high beam / low beam of the bulbs. Any self-respecting electrician knows all this. Nowadays I use Bosch electronic relays available at good accessory shop for around Rs 100 a piece. These are made in Germany. Ask for the "Bosch ka headlight relay" and any good shop will give it to you.
Connections and fabrication of the wiring harness – remember that once you have purchased the wires and the bulbs etc, the real work starts. You need to be very clear on how you are going to layout the harness. You will need to fabricate a full harness outside the car by laying out the routing on the car, cutting the wires to correct length and then assembling temporarily by using insulation tapes at joints etc. Remember to lay out an extra length of cable from the main alternator terminal to the starter motor / battery positive terminal so as to provide an additional booster / shunt to the main harness. Once the "loose loom" is ready, take a big bundle of plastic tape "Notre" makes is good and start taping the loom in totality. The skill lies in the pitch of each turn, if done correctly, you will always get a "Wow what a wiring harness" from people who understand. To others, it does not matter but then in the night their headlights also don’t work as required.
A word of caution - please take a copy of this communication, show it to your electrician who understands and has the time, energy, patience and passion to do this kind of work. Whenever I have done it, it has taken me 10 hours non-stop from start to finish. Needless to say that this is an indicative procedure. Minor details may vary from car to car.
The beam setting procedure – in the nights go to a quiet straight road. It must be minimum 500 m long. Park the car in the center of the road and start the headlights in high beam. Stand in front of each headlight when it is on to understands the beam pattern of the other headlight. Set the high beam so that it is parallel to the road at headlight mounting height and that BOTH HIGH BEAMS MEET AT THE CENTRE LINE OF THE CAR. In other words, THE HIGH BEAMS MUST REMAIN PARALLEL TO THE ROAD AND BOTH MUST MEET EXACTLY AT THE CAR CENTRE LINE. Remember that you will have to DRIVE THE CAR FOR A LITTLE DISTANCE EACH TIME. Just standing outside and setting will not give you results. I need to get down and adjust each beam at least 25 times for me to get my correct high beam pattern. It took me about 2 months to finally arrive at my personal best setting on the beam pattern. A minor fog on the road enhances the beam, helping you to identify it better. Use nature to your advantage.
Any change to the Alternator etc? – No, not required if the unit is working and delivering output to specifications. Normally the electricians take short cuts when they overhaul alternators so if you are not sure, just replace the whole assembly with a new one. In the long run, it works out as better value for money. Otherwise if you want to overhaul, please use new diodes, a new relay and a new slip ring pack.
The final result – it has to be a WOW everytime, there is no doubt. Go down any Ghat road in the middle of the night and you will see your high beam dance from a rock face and then into the openness of the clear sky as you take hairpin bends. The feeling is exhilarating. If the convergence point is spot-on @ car centerline (RH beam and LH beam angle is same), you will have better control over your steering wheel inputs. This will give you full confidence to place your car exactly where you want it in the middle of the Ghat in the absolute dead of night. But you have to work hard to achieve it. I have done it for years. So go ahead and finally get good headlights on your cars.
Discipline on the highways at night – Perfect headlights is a must for our highways, but please use them responsibly. I have the self-imposed discipline of dipping my headlights, irrespective of what the opposite driver does. If I have to slow down, I slow down. No compromise. But if I flash my high beam, the guy gets a very passive message of who is on the other side and who means business.
My take on extra driving lights – I have used all sorts of things, but to-date, without any doubt, the best pair of driving lights that I have ever used are a pair of HELLA RALLYE 3000 YELLOW COLOURED DRIVING LIGHTS. Their power, reach, beam convergence and view clarity is just awesome, even in the face of oncoming lights. Obviously, I had a fabricated an additional harness for them as well. Also, please fabricate rigid mountings for such wonderful lights. Do not mount them on aftermarket brackets at all. All it takes is a little ingenuity. Ask me if you want I will guide you. I have used CIBIE concave round lights as well. They are good but it is hard to find a good pair these days.
The FIAT part original identification procedure :
FIAT - PART NUMBERING SYSTEM:
I am giving here the original FIAT part numbering system which we used for our engineering documentation etc. I believe that it is being used for today's Palio by FIAT INDIA also and is still used by FIAT worldwide.
Any original FIAT part number would be in 2 parts - the letter F followed by a 7 digit number, then a slash (/) and then a location indicator called a "matricola" in Italian (matrix in English).
A typical part number would read like this - F4095671/5.10.010
F = FIAT (S = SEAT of spain)
7 digits = part number
Matricola details were first number (5 above) would indicate as - 0 = engine, 1 = chassis, 5 = body. That means this is a body part. the next two numbers (10 above) would indicate the body group to which this part number belongs 01 = full body layout, 10 = external panels, 11 = internal panels. The last 3 numbers would indicate the breakup location, (000 would mean full assembly, 050, 100, 150 etc would lead to parts. The dimensions would be indicated accordingly. Assembly drawings would carry reference assembly dimensions only (so easy to refer). I was able to pull out any drawing within minutes (and there were no computers then).
All drawings were stored in a section known as COD (Custodians of Documents) in the R&D building in Kurla. I have seen original FIAT drawings made in 1953 (before I was born), drawn with tee squares and set squares. Even the holes made in the papers whenever a compass was used could be seen. The deawings carried complete details including toleranced dimensions as well as notes for surface finish, surface treatment etc. A typical note would read ("yellow passivation as per fiat standard 5.57405", test for salt spray as per fiat standard so-and-so), which were also available in COD for our references.
Amazing clarity, no confusion at all. A beautifully engineered product with perfect engineering documentation. I am proud to say that as an engineer, however hard I tried (and I actually tried very hard), I was not able to find a single design fault in the FIAT designs.
More articles related to Fiats are to come from all over the forum. If you have any please feel free to post them here.
Last edited by Mpower : 3rd April 2010 at 23:03.
|The following 12 BHPians Thank adheesh for this useful post:|| |
ACM, autocrat, DrANTO, FordDodo, funkykar, h14, humbleroadster, khanak, Kirthy, Thebugdoc, WhiteSierra, Yankee Frankie
|25th May 2008, 20:51||#4|
Join Date: Feb 2004
Thanked: 30,440 Times
Nice work adheesh, but please do provide links & credit to your sources (even if they are other members/threads on Team-BHP).
|26th May 2008, 15:47||#5|
Senior - BHPian
Join Date: Sep 2006
Thanked: 400 Times
the first part of the article is given the thread http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/street...120km-h-2.html by mr Dhabhar.
|26th May 2008, 22:49||#6|
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: FIATFUL Mumbai
Thanked: 186 Times
Nice and informative thread Adheesh. Well done. Keep it up!
@BEHRAM: Thanks for your everwilling valuable information. Great!
Can see FCCCI going places with FIAT CRAZY enthusuasts.
|26th May 2008, 23:29||#7|
The second part of the article is from 'Auto Lighting thread : Post all queries about automobile lighting here ' Page 60. This piece of information was also written by Mr. Dhabhar
@PRESIDENT: Thanks. Would surely try to compile as much of genuine and original ( Fiat information as possible.
Last edited by adheesh : 26th May 2008 at 23:32.
|27th May 2008, 01:50||#8|
Join Date: Feb 2004
Thanked: 30,440 Times
Thanks for the links, in the future you guys can copy the link from the top right of the post that says "(permalink)". This is the best way to link directly to a specific post.
|10th June 2008, 19:50||#9|
Distinguished - BHPian
Join Date: Jul 2007
Thanked: 5,127 Times
Thank you Adheesh, I appreciate your compilation. By the way, how is your car running now ? No rubber washers and other nonsense in it, ever. Next on your car - just throw your present muffler out and use the original AVL specification muffler. Just remember - there is only one way to do any job and that is the correct way. Either you do a perfect job or you do not do it at all. There is no other way.
|The following 2 BHPians Thank DHABHAR.BEHRAM for this useful post:|| |
|12th June 2008, 00:01||#10|
Last edited by adheesh : 12th June 2008 at 00:03.
|20th June 2008, 00:31||#11|
I would like to to post the details about 'Value Engineering Parts' (VEP) introduced by Premier Automobiles. Also it would be great if you could suggest something on reversing these changes.
|20th June 2008, 10:09||#13|
Last edited by adheesh : 20th June 2008 at 10:10.