[girimajiananth]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

It is completely unnatural for humans to drink milk from other animals. Human milk to tailored for humans; cow milk is tailored for cows.
Having said that, I drink it anyway. Each to their own decision!
Very true. Also, I certainly will not buy local city-cow milk from the local milkman, when I see what the cows on the streets are eating
Brilliant.

May be , humans can adapt to milk from a lot of animals like cow,buffalo,goat etc. A cow/calf may not drink milk from another animal.

What about the good old Amul and Nandini milk ? We have all been drinking that from ages.

[Thad E Ginathom]

May be , humans can adapt to milk from a lot of animals like cow,buffalo,goat etc ...

I suppose that experiences says that yes, most of us do.

There is another curious thing about this consumption of mammary-gland product: it is not only meant for the same species, but also, only until the young are able to progress to "adult" food. That could be said to be another "unnatural" aspect of adult humans drinking it.

But this relationship between cow/goat/etc and human seems to have existed for a very, very long time. Maybe, apart from some who have intolerances, we have genetically adapted.

[hserus]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

There is another curious thing about this consumption of mammary-gland product: it is not only meant for the same species, but also, only until the young are able to progress to "adult" food. That could be said to be another "unnatural" aspect of adult humans drinking it

Humans have two or more components to eating or drinking something -

1. It sustains your health

2. It tastes good

3. Everybody else is drinking it, so why don't I do so as well

On the other hand - some of us graduated to black coffee a fairly long time back

[Thad E Ginathom]

Coffee beans are created by the coffee plant to grow more coffee plants: it is unnatural for humans to process and drink them!

Or, in other words, so much for the natural/unnatural arguments, including my own

[maddy42]

This whole thing looks silly. I think we have way too many scientists or wanabee scientists who have labs going jobless. Or else how can each lab findings on products be different? Maggi fiasco is an example.

Naturally cows give milk when it has a calf, but in so many farms you see the cows give milk through the year. Similarly i think the milk you get from Nandini or amul is a mix of A1 A2 and Buffalo 1 and buffalo 2 along with some rain water and river water.

We supply milk in our village and was once asked by a priests wife if the ghee is pure cow ghee or buffalo ghee. Frankly speaking does it matter? How do you know Nandini ghee is pure cow ghee?

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Coffee beans are created by the coffee plant to grow more coffee plants: it is unnatural for humans to process and drink them!

Or, in other words, so much for the natural/unnatural arguments, including my own

Oh dont blame coffee now, we grow that too . Will harm our business.

Maddy

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Coffee beans are created by the coffee plant to grow more coffee plants: it is unnatural for humans to process and drink them!

Anarchist!

I'm sure humans have grown more coffee plants than the coffee plants themselves could have managed so far. Hence we're square.

[sudev]

What's with A1, A2...? Was the New Zealand company director partial to Audi's? Are all cows one species? What is breed? How's that different from bread? How to bread for breed? OMG so many topics for research!!!

Lactose intolerance is just gas.

[hserus]

Originally Posted by sudev

What's with A1, A2...? Was the New Zealand company director partial to Audi's? Are all cows one species? What is breed? How's that different from bread? How to bread for breed? OMG so many topics for research!!!

Lactose intolerance is just gas.

It causes a lot of gas - and frequently goes further than gas. However it is no laughing matter for people who do suffer from it. Especially infants - a baby niece was born intolerant to breast milk, lactose AND soy - so had to switch to some really expensive baby formula that was carefully tailored for such kids.

[mallumowgli]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Coffee beans are created by the coffee plant to grow more coffee plants: it is unnatural for humans to process and drink them!

Or, in other words, so much for the natural/unnatural arguments, including my own

Coffee beans may be an unintentional error by nature - the fruit was made edible to enable dispersion. But humans discovered something more!! Coffee from bat droppings (of coffee beans) are extremely valued, right?

Whereas in the case of milk - hope you guys know the joke about the first man (or woman, to be politically correct, particularly in a reply to Thad) who milked a cow!!

[TeddyBear]

Guys, I have had doubts related to how Jallikattu can help with preservation of native breeds and why can't breeders raise these even without events like Jallikattu. I was curious and enquired many people who were supporting Jallikattu. The answers that I got like it helps with financing the bull were not convincing. The only convincing answer in favor of Jallikattu was that it must be held for cultural reasons which most of the people parroted. But none of them were able to point me out to the actual reasons why this was beneficial. The videos that I was pointed out to described in great detail the advantages of A2 milk and how the preservation of native breeds which have the gene for producing A2 milk is important but none of them addressed the important question - How does Jallikattu help in their preservation and what is in it for native breeders. After seeing Senapathy's replies in an interview and after talking to Raja Manickam, I have finally managed to convince myself that Jallikattu is not just important from a cultural point of view but is more important from a farmer's point of view as it helps in preservation of native breeds. Here is my summary of how it helps. It is a long read but it will help the majority of those youngsters who are seeking such answers themselves and would enable them to be in a better position to defend the practice.

A little bit of background is necessary before understanding this.

There are two types of beta-casein protein which are the dominant casein proteins in cow's milk: A1 and A2 protein. Initially all cows produced milk rich in A2 protein. But 5000 years back when migration started happening to Europe, a genetic mutation caused cattle taken to Europe to produce milk where both A1 and A2 protein were present in approximately equal amounts or where A1 protein dominated. Most of the breeds in Europe, US and Australia produce milk rich in A1 protein while native breeds in Asia and Africa produce milk rich in A2 protein. But after effects of colonization and artificial insemination caused these differences to disappear and interbreeding of cattle resulted in cows' milk in Asia and Africa to also have both proteins. But pure breeds (ones with A2 milk) still do exist in Asia and Africa.

Scientific research has established the differences in the way the human digestive system (and digestive enzymes) processes these two proteins. The digestive enzymes react to these proteins very differently. Based on these differences, many research articles have arrived at the conclusion (not established beyond reasonable doubt) that A1 milk protein could be the cause for various chronic diseases like type-1 diabetes and so on. There exists research to the contrary as well i.e. there is no correlation between A1 protein and chronic diseases. But the majoritarian view at the moment is that A2 milk is more beneficial than A1 milk. Here is a link to one such research paper (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3475924/).

There is one more important point to be made here. When we interbreed a bull and a cow (and if one or both of them were an offspring of a cow that produced milk rich in A1 protein) then the new offspring will also have this trait. It has been scientifically proven that the gene which causes cows to produce milk rich in A1 protein is a dominant gene and hence all offsprings will also have this trait.

In India there are 37 native breeds (there were 150 a century ago) and of these 36 have the A2 protein gene in them. The only breed Malvi (common in Maharashtra) has the gene for A1 protein. But this bull is mostly used for ploughing and cows bred with this bull are average milk producers and hence not a cause for major concern. That essentially means that all the 6 native breeds found in Tamilnadu have the A2 protein gene in them which makes it all the more important for us to preserve them.

Now before we address why Jallikattu helps in preserving native breed, let us understand what will happen if all these native breeds become extinct. We will then have to interbreed and rely heavily on artificial insemination. I have already mentioned the problems with inter breeding above. Artificial insemination is an expensive process and we rely on semen imported from countries like US, Australia, Denmark and New Zealand from Jersey bulls and other such breed known to have A1 protein as the dominant gene. This essentially means that our generation and future generation will then have to live with milk rich in A1 protein and also the associated problems like type1 - diabetes, autism and so on. The other disadvantage with artificial insemination is that the offspring will not be healthy as its genetic pool lacks the genes that are required for it to adapt to the climate and local changes which a native breed has in a higher proportion.

Now this brings into picture an MNC, A2 Milk Company with presence in US, Australia and New Zealand. This company holds patents for trivial things like genetically testing whether a cow has an A1 gene or A2 gene. But what is disturbing is the patent that they hold for artificial insemination of A2 gene bull's semen. They hold the patent for this method which causes A2 gene to become the dominant gene as opposed to A1 which happens naturally. It suppresses the dominant tendency of A1 gene. Now if all native breeds in India were destroyed then we may have to either make do with A1 milk or we may have to pay a hefty royalty to A2 Milk company for using its patented technique to produce cows rich in A2 gene. Now this is what is bothering most of these cattle breeders in TamilNadu. The question that is being raised is that when our breeds are perfectly capable of producing A2 milk, why must be force ourselves to be a slave to some other MNC company holding a patent for this. They also accuse this MNC of funding PETA which is unsubstantiated. But this organisation has been donating generously to PETA in US, Australia and New Zealand which is suspicious but doesn't establish that they are behind the protest in India.

Now let us address why Jallikattu helps in preserving our native breed (I got this information from Senapathy and Raja Manickam).

In TamilNadu, breeders rear bulls with the intention of showcasing them in Jallikattu. Most of the farmers can't afford to raise these bulls and are hence reliant on these breeders or on the common temple bull which is reared by the entire village rather than a single breeder. The bulls that fare well in the Jallikattu arena are in constant demand for servicing the cows. So we can think of Jallikattu as a marketplace for these bulls. Now this still doesn't answer as to why Jallikattu alone can help in this and why can't breeders breed these native bulls irrespective of whether Jallikattu happens or not.

To understand that we will have to understand the chronology of events that lead to Jallikattu and events that happen thereafter. Jallikattu is held during Pongal time (i.e. mid January), the strong bulls are identified and mated with cows. After this the farming season starts. After harvesting is done, this cycle starts again where the breeders showcase their bulls in Jallikattu events. People with a keen eye for this then make note of the strongest bulls and then seek them out later in what is known as a sandhai (marketplace) in Tamil

Now how does Jallikattu help in the process? The bulls used for mating need to be virile. During the mating season (which is typically after Pongal), these bulls need to be at the top of their game i.e. they must be secreting all the necessary male hormones, experience adrenaline rush and also a fast beating heart. This is where Jallikattu comes in picture. The time when the bull is released from the Vaadi Vaasal (the small narrow gate from which the bulls are released) and till the time it manages to reach the other end (if it is not subdued) causes it to experience a great adrenaline rush which then boosts it's testosterone levels and also keeps its heart beating at a rate faster than normal levels. This increases their virility and this is one of the most fundamental of all necessities for selective breeding. Can this be done without an activity like Jallikattu? Possibly but then the number of matings a bull can accomplish decreases significantly. Jallikattu helps in increasing this which is of utmost importance to a farmer's wellbeing. Also because artificial insemination is not adapted for native breeds, the banning of an event like Jallikattu will lead to these native breeds getting destroyed which would then force our hands to rely on artificial insemination the very process which the farmers shunned to begin with.

In places where events like Jallikattu are not held, the male calves (which are essentially useless unless there is demand for tasks like ploughing) are slaughtered. but in places where Jallikattu is held, these calves are held on to for the purpose of showcasing them and establishing their superiority.

Now that convinces me of the necessity for an event like Jalikattu. Now I can truly empathise with these farmers and their struggle to retain this cultural event.

[hserus]

This A1-A2 distinction is sheer nonsense, to be honest. Scientifically proven to be bunkum. And in the USA / new zealand the fight is between Jersey cows vs Holsteins which are claimed to produce A1 / A2 respectively, nothing at all to do with desi cattle breeds. And our local breeds are quite well crossbred with jerseys and holsteins over the past several decades.

And in any case the fighting bull varieties that are bred for jallikattu are not really known for milk yields. The cows of such breeds are generally maintained only for stud purposes, not as milch cattle on dairy farms.

So I am not sure where these two concepts are related except in the strange world of fake facebook and whatsapp forwards .. fighting bull breeds vs indigenous or imported dairy breeds. It is like saying a tamilian is an indian, a punjabi is an indian so a tamilian is related to a punjabi.

[deathwalkr]

@hserus: nail on the head.

we seem to rely too much on whatsapp forwards and the likes and decide most of our judgments.

it's all very funny to behold.

[wrongturn]

Brazil is one of the nation's that imports the Gir cow breed, as the quality of milk produced is far better than any other breed. Similarly there are milk dairies in our own country that have only native Indian cow breeds and the produce goes to the rich and famous with milk costing about Rs. 80/liter or upwards.

In India a large portion of population is still vegetarian, and the major source of protein for them is milk and milk products. The introduction of foreign cow breeds has indeed brought with it quite a few challenges and maybe the human body will adapt to it, but with time. The thing about desi cow breed's milk is something maybe everyone will deny until they have tried it for themselves. The scientific studies as often motivated by consumerism, and economics. There would be a lot of them contradictory to each other over this subject.

We Indians have been found to be better than the rest of the world when it comes to digestion of cow milk, and lactose tolerance as our human body is quite well adapted to it for obvious reasons. If anyone has any doubts over the cattle milk battle, please experience it yourself before passing any judgement. For me it was so drastic that I have a Gir cow at my home now. What is worse is the quality of packed milk we get from dairies. Our local state dairy, Saras dairy was in news recently as the quality inspection officer was caught dissolving urea in milk to increase the yield, on questioning he said the chairman asked him to. Needless to say that there was no follow up news and no actions were taken against anything. The world today is all about consumerism and economics. The rate at which the diabetes, cardiovascular and other diseases have increased in our society is alarming. Blaming just fried food and too much sugar is utter non-sense in my opinion. The vegetarians have suffered more which is quite opposite to what is happening around the world, as non vegetarian diet is blamed for cardiovascular diseases.

In the end I am no expert, but I have switched to the DESI cow milk, as in my opinion I have a lot of reasons for doing that. And if I have to advice someone on the subject, given the insanely high amount of toxic adulteration of milk and milk products may it be paneer, mawa, ghee or anything, either refrain from consuming any or get it from a trusted source. The damages to body are often irreversible, and this subject must not be over looked.

The threat is quite real, like global warming. You may choose to shut it out and live like it doesn't exist. Quoting The Memento, Leonard Shelby: I have to believe in a world outside my own mind. I have to believe that my actions still have meaning, even if I can't remember them. I have to believe that when my eyes are closed, the world's still there. Do I believe the world's still there? Is it still out there?... Yeah. We all need mirrors to remind ourselves who we are. I'm no different.

[hserus]

Brazil doesn't import them actually, as much as that a batch was once imported and now bred there. Those cows are used for beef (and you have to travel to Brazil to know how much they love steak).

Rs. 80 per litre, did you convert that to brazilian reales? Nothing to do with milk going to rich and famous people. Normal supermarket milk is all, nobody does milk delivery at home there, rich or poor alike all buy the same sort of milk at a supermarket like they do in the USA and most other countries in the world.

You are being conned into paying tens of rupees more for milk of dubious quality. Especially if you get it from a local gwala, the chances are high that he has adulterated the milk with water, and generally used hormone injections etc on the cow to boost milk production. Stick to the stuff you get in milk packets, there isn't an iota of difference beyond it being pasteurized and so a better chance you aren't going to get food poisoning.

Please don't compare this nonsense to global warming, there is scientific evidence rather than fake whatsapp forward evidence, extensively documented, about global warming.

For a1/a2 milk you have a few papers from dubious institutions, that turn out inconclusive on peer review. And you have marketing propaganda both from corporate dairies selling organic milk, as well as "nationalist" whatsapp forwards promoting desi cows. That's all, nothing more and with zero relationship to truth.

Seriously, please don't waste your hard earned money on this .. it is about as much hot air as all those fancy additives are for fuel in your petrol tank.

[rajeev k]

I had been using The Kerala Co-operative Milk Marketing Federation's "Milma" milk but of late (since 2 to 3 years) shifted to Karnataka Milk Federation's "Nandini' brand.

I have been hearing that many branded cow's milk are also blended with buffalo milk.

Is it true?