[an_and]

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

Exactly what i also feel on reading such news. NO way it is possible for them to get new notes without the help of Bank managers or someone in the banking system. Shame on such people who do these favors for money in return.

Not a few lakhs, but crores of rupees in new 2000 notes being held by these hoarder.Any bank employee involved in this must be fired !

Our country never ceases to amaze me!

I sincerely hope that not only is that bank employee fired, but him and the manager of the bank is sued and jailed. That alone will put the fear of god in these guys and stop them from helping these corrupt people.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by poloman

So there is only one excuse for this hungama about cash shortage atleast in big cities. They simply don't want to report their income. It is really unfortunate that media and some so called experts are crying hoarse and there by favoring these kind of money hoarders. Surely some distress exists in rural areas, but this is opportunity for them also to move up at least by opening a bank account if not mobile wallet.

I came here today to say exactly this.

Every time we pay somebody in cash without a tax receipt, to avail the 'discount' the vendor offered, it is a bribe we received from that vendor. He bribed us to pay cash so that he can skip reporting his income and escape income tax. Once we receive this bribe, we really don't have the moral right to rant about corruption.

By paying cash, we cheat on sales/service tax. By not reporting cash income, the vendor cheats on income tax. Then both turn around and complain about corruption in government. That's like pot calling the kettle black.

Let's use the demonetization excuse to stop paying cash and break this circle of corruption. Once we stop taking bribe, we can talk about government corruption.

Originally Posted by sammyboy

Everyday there is some news about crores being nabbed from someone or the other and mostly in new currency. Here we are, standing in line for hours, supporting the entire move and not letting our family and friends lose hope, Cheering every time we get 2k from an ATM .

When any operation happens at a massive scale, you can't expect absolute compliance. There will be leaks in lots of places. Therefore, anything that happens in a demographic scale, can only be measured using statistical calculations. If the number of cases of fraud are in the extremities of a normal distribution, it doesn't mean the operation has failed. Therefore, anecdotal cases of fraud doesn't matter in the overall picture. Whenever I see somebody pointing at a case and lament that the demonetization has failed, it makes me think he doesn't understand statistics.

Originally Posted by sgiitk

I came across a post which says that there may even be some 'black liquidity' in the economy, ie the actual amount in circulation may be more than what has been reported. I pray to the Almighty that this is not true, since the repercussions are huge.

Until there is definite proof verifiable by the court, it can be attributed to conspiracy theory, which are abundantly in circulation these days. Even media has stopped fact checking anything they print these days.

[chakri400]

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

Exactly what i also feel on reading such news. NO way it is possible for them to get new notes without the help of Bank managers or someone in the banking system. Shame on such people who do these favors for money in return.

Not a few lakhs, but crores of rupees in new 2000 notes being held by these hoarder.Any bank employee involved in this must be fired !

Our country never ceases to amaze me!

Fired is not enough, need to put behind bars and money recovered.

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by sagarpadaki

Exactly what i also feel on reading such news. NO way it is possible for them to get new notes without the help of Bank managers or someone in the banking system. Shame on such people who do these favors for money in return.

Not a few lakhs, but crores of rupees in new 2000 notes being held by these hoarder.Any bank employee involved in this must be fired !

Originally Posted by chakri400

Fired is not enough, need to put behind bars and money recovered.

Looking at the report of Jagran that the chaps at T & T Delhi had unnumbered notes, and also one where it is claimed that the notes are only partly printed seems to point a finger at the printing presses as well.

One other thing, what nefarious activities were these crooks doing prior to the demonetization. They were not sitting idle.

[Samurai]

Here is a novel theory to dissuade people from hoarding the new currency... it is radioactive!!!

http://postcard.news/must-read-depar...not-nano-chip/

Of all the conspiracy theories of demonetization, this one really takes the cake. Better not carry these notes in your pant pocket, if you are planning to have kids in future.

[sukhoi30]

Originally Posted by Samurai

I came here today to say exactly this.

By paying cash, we cheat on sales/service tax. By not reporting cash income, the vendor cheats on income tax. Then both turn around and complain about corruption in government. That's like pot calling the kettle black.

Exactly!! The problem lies in reporting of income by such establishments which are into predominantly cash business.
To give you an example : Last weekend I went to a very old and well known eatery, Supriya restaurant which is bang opp nehru memorial centre in Pune Camp. Veteran Puneites will identify with this restaurant as it is very old and well known for its south indian delicacies.
Right at the cash counter, they have the signage
"We do not accept Rs. 500/Rs. 1000 old notes as per Govt. notification". So far so good ... but right below this, there is another signage that says
"We do not accept credit/debit cards".
The restaurant was decently full so there was no dearth of business.
In Pune, there are several establishments especially in old Pune, Pune Camp, Laxmi Road etc. where some well known old shops still deal in cash.
They will give you bill too, which is mostly handwritten and there is no mention of VAT/Service Tax etc.
God only knows what kind of income such establishments are reporting to the Govt. Definitely they must be under reporting sales that's why the reluctance to go to the banking system.
It is establishments such as these because of which Govt. is unable to increase its tax base. It is because of such places, income tax paying people have to continue to pay higher taxes.

[lambuhere1]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

Looking at the report of Jagran that the chaps at T & T Delhi had unnumbered notes, and also one where it is claimed that the notes are only partly printed seems to point a finger at the printing presses as well.

Now this is interesting Sirji. Couldn't find any news on the web.

If this is the case, in theory, the notes do not carry any value, is it not ?

[blacksport]

All this talk about cashless economy is nonsense. If I pay 100 bucks for a Biriyani, I want the whole 100 rupees to reach the vendor. If PayTM is gonna get Rs 2 from it, sooner or later the vendor is going to up the price to Rs 102. So it is a big NO from me. I do not want to enrich a new big business in order to make my govt rich. The govt anyway takes more than what it needs. They pocket most of it leaving paltry amounts for welfare and infrastructure. I'd rather my doctor not pay income tax from the Rs 200 I pay him. If I pay by PayTM and make the doc pay Rs 30 to the govt, then he will happily add the 30 to the consulting fee. In fact, I am not punishing the doctor, but myself! No thank you.

[vishnurp99]

Originally Posted by blacksport

All this talk about cashless economy is nonsense. If I pay 100 bucks for a Biriyani, I want the whole 100 rupees to reach the vendor. If PayTM is gonna get Rs 2 from it, sooner or later the vendor is going to up the price to Rs 102. So it is a big NO from me. I do not want to enrich a new big business in order to make my govt rich. The govt anyway takes more than what it needs. They pocket most of it leaving paltry amounts for welfare and infrastructure. I'd rather my doctor not pay income tax from the Rs 200 I pay him. If I pay by PayTM and make the doc pay Rs 30 to the govt, then he will happily add the 30 to the consulting fee. In fact, I am not punishing the doctor, but myself! No thank you.

Guess this validates what folks like Samurai have talked about earlier in this thread. Unscrupulous customers team up with Unscrupulous shopkeepers to cheat the system and then adopt a holier than thou attitude that Govt is corrupt/not capable and that's why they don't pay taxes. My sincere apologies for calling a spade a spade.

About Paytm, it's just one of the options to pay. There are many other options too and most will charge only .2 to 1% of the transaction. Compare this with the income tax rate of a minimum of 10% which you are entitled to pay the govt if your income is above 25000 Rs per month.

[blacksport]

Originally Posted by vishnurp99

Guess this validates what folks like Samurai have talked about earlier in this thread. Unscrupulous customers team up with Unscrupulous shopkeepers to cheat the system and then adopt a holier than thou attitude that Govt is corrupt/not capable and that's why they don't pay taxes. My sincere apologies for calling a spade a spade.

About Paytm, it's just one of the options to pay. There are many other options too and most will charge only .2 to 1% of the transaction. Compare this with the income tax rate of a minimum of 10% which you are entitled to pay the govt if your income is above 25000 Rs per month.

I know it feels heartening to think of oneself as an altruist, be a sheep to the govt and not question anything they do. But do understand that people who have brought about change has actually questioned govts not obey them. For a start you can browse last year's budget and start pondering where that rupee you had paid as tax has gone. Again, don't be sheep, ask questions. It's your money.

[avira_tk]

Originally Posted by blacksport

All this talk about cashless economy is nonsense. If I pay 100 bucks for a Biriyani, I want the whole 100 rupees to reach the vendor. If PayTM is gonna get Rs 2 from it, sooner or later the vendor is going to up the price to Rs 102. So it is a big NO from me. I do not want to enrich a new big business in order to make my govt rich. The govt anyway takes more than what it needs. They pocket most of it leaving paltry amounts for welfare and infrastructure. I'd rather my doctor not pay income tax from the Rs 200 I pay him. If I pay by PayTM and make the doc pay Rs 30 to the govt, then he will happily add the 30 to the consulting fee. In fact, I am not punishing the doctor, but myself! No thank you.

You've pointed out the obvious, but unfortunately you are preaching to the choir, cashless without any cost seems to be the going theme. Ready cash should always command a discount, with the lousy credit card networks we have, its come to a stage where you can't eat a meal outside unless you verify the status of the POS machine before placing an order.

[androdev]

Originally Posted by blacksport

All this talk about cashless economy is nonsense. If I pay 100 bucks for a Biriyani, I want the whole 100 rupees to reach the vendor. If PayTM is gonna get Rs 2 from it, sooner or later the vendor is going to up the price to Rs 102. So it is a big NO from me. I do not want to enrich a new big business in order to make my govt rich. The govt anyway takes more than what it needs. They pocket most of it leaving paltry amounts for welfare and infrastructure. I'd rather my doctor not pay income tax from the Rs 200 I pay him. If I pay by PayTM and make the doc pay Rs 30 to the govt, then he will happily add the 30 to the consulting fee. In fact, I am not punishing the doctor, but myself! No thank you.

Yes, all these doctors/landlords/traders,etc. are used to certain level of income. If they are forced to pay tax and digital transaction fees, etc. they will obviously increase the price to maintain the current levels of income. It is foolish for people to assume that the tax will be paid without increase in prices.

The issue is not whether Govt should be paid tax, or how much of tax, etc. but that people who pay tax should not be at a disadvantage wrt those who evade tax.

Also people are naive in assuming cashless economy results in less corruption/black money/tax evasion, etc. These things will come down ONLY if the enforcement and conviction become credible. Have we have seen any improved levels of enforcement and conviction in the new Govt?

So many theories about why demonetisation is done! Sooner or later people will figure someone really goofed up the cost-benefit analysis, so there is this crazy exercise of finding some by-product benefits such as cashless economy and other penny-wise pound-foolish proposals.

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by blacksport

All this talk about cashless economy is nonsense. If I pay 100 bucks for a Biriyani, I want the whole 100 rupees to reach the vendor. If PayTM is gonna get Rs 2 from it, sooner or later the vendor is going to up the price to Rs 102. So it is a big NO from me. I do not want to enrich a new big business in order to make my govt rich. The govt anyway takes more than what it needs. They pocket most of it leaving paltry amounts for welfare and infrastructure

If you are not willing to pay tax, why are you expecting any services from the government? It is this kind of mindset that creates black economy, and incidentally corruption.

How do cash-only retailer escape tax? First they don't report their income. But the local IT department is not stupid. They can easily estimate the income of the shop by monitoring the shop for a couple days. Once they are convinced the shop is under-reporting income, they will fleece a big bribe from the shop owner to overlook his crime. Since the bribe amount is always lower than the assessed tax, the shop owner is happy to pay bribe.

Paying cash to any vendor enables corruption.

[hybridpetrol]

Originally Posted by blacksport

The govt anyway takes more than what it needs. They pocket most of it leaving paltry amounts for welfare and infrastructure. I'd rather my doctor not pay income tax from the Rs 200 I pay him. If I pay by PayTM and make the doc pay Rs 30 to the govt, then he will happily add the 30 to the consulting fee. In fact, I am not punishing the doctor, but myself! No thank you.

I hope you agree that the Government can satisfy the needs of the people and make their lives better only through the taxes, and income tax is one of the primary sources.
The corruption scandals in our country are big and are highlighted even bigger, so we end up thinking paying income tax goes directly into the hands of these corrupt individuals. So, not disclosing income as self and as customer to a service provider is justified.
We want our country to have infrastructure and facilities to be like that in the USA, but we do not want to comply and pay taxes like the folks in the USA do.
For middle class people working on different organizations, the tax is deducted at source. If not, with the logic similar to yours, I am sure many would simply ignore filing IT returns. So, since this taxes are anyway forcefully taken at source from employees, do you want such people to continue to take all the burden of taxes which your doctor happily evades to provide you "cheap" service?
PayTM is just a poor excuse for not coming into the system. I have not used PayTM wallet or wallet of any other kind. But I am surviving with just my cards & online payments wherever applicable. I never needed too much cash on hand.

[ptushar]

Originally Posted by blacksport

All this talk about cashless economy is nonsense. If I pay 100 bucks for a Biriyani, I want the whole 100 rupees to reach the vendor. If PayTM is gonna get Rs 2 from it, sooner or later the vendor is going to up the price to Rs 102. So it is a big NO from me. I do not want to enrich a new big business in order to make my govt rich. The govt anyway takes more than what it needs. They pocket most of it leaving paltry amounts for welfare and infrastructure. I'd rather my doctor not pay income tax from the Rs 200 I pay him. If I pay by PayTM and make the doc pay Rs 30 to the govt, then he will happily add the 30 to the consulting fee. In fact, I am not punishing the doctor, but myself! No thank you.

I wanted to provide a long winding response to you, but seriously there is no point as you probably don't understand the basics of economics. If your argument had been that there should be no 'income' tax and only indirect taxes then we could have indulged in a healthy debate. But since you claim that one should not pay any taxes at all, then I really do not have much to offer in the argument. Its like me debating with someone who argues on why one should breathe.

Anyways, I will advise you to read up some articles on why people should pay taxes and how taxes help citizens eventually.

Also, next time you are driving on that 6 lane highway speeding in your car at about 100+ km/hr and feeling happy, please spare a though to those people who honestly paid taxes so that you can enjoy that drive.

Next time you are watching TV and feel a nationalistic jingoism boiling inside you when you watch your neighboring countries antics, and then angrily announce that India should have the best army, navy and air force; again, spare some thought to many who pay taxes and make this happen

And hey, when you next time pay 'by cash' (as you want the 'full money' to go to the Biryani vendor), spare some thought on how in the first place did the note get printed? Who paid for the designing, the paper, the printing press, the salaries of the people who work there, how did the note get distributed to Bangalore (It is printed in Mysore and Nasik), who drove the vans, who paid for the vans, who paid for the drivers etc etc etc. As again (by now, I presume, you get the drift) spare some thought to those who paid taxes so that you have that note in your hand to pay for that Biryani.

Originally Posted by Samurai

Paying cash to any vendor enables corruption.

Spot one. Exactly the reason why cashless transactions should be encouraged. The less cash in the market, the easier it is for tracking income and ensuring that the fair share of the money reaches the government.

Last but not the least blacksport, in case you are against paying that 1% to 3% to the wallet companies then you are in your right to think that. In this case use options like IMPS or UPI which enables transfers directly from your bank account to the vendor's bank account without any fees involved.