[Samurai]

Originally Posted by vibbs

Ok so now we are equating meat eating to being influenced by Western thought after being equated to child rapists.

This is a clear case of moral relativism turned into moral superiority, something I explicitly warned against very early in this thread.

[Nav-i-gator]

Originally Posted by '72 Bullet

I guess it also depends on where you are located and where you are buying your food from. IMHO I don't think transport of dried fruit is such a problem as it is the water-content in food that is heavy, bulky and difficult to store.

Do almonds in India come from California or grown closer to home? Any idea about oats?

Almonds, as far as known, are all imported (primarily US). Same for edible quality oats (Mostly imported from Australia, some from US).

Oats cultivation in India is almost entirely for cattle feed purpose.

On the vegan topic again: No industry is as brutal and unapologetic as farming, if we see through the lenses of Morality and not harming living creatures (those who can apparently "feel" pain and can't resist being brutalized/killed). You plough the field, earth dwelling animals (like earthworms, rodents etc) get slaughtered. Pesticides, work as neuro-toxins, Growth disruptors, chemosterilants (makes the "pests" infertile), oxygen/energy pathways disruptors and poisons. Insects/pests usually get mutilated, suffocated, paralyzed and suffer a painful death, to increase crop productivity.

It harms birds who feed on poisoned insects, animals who eat poisoned rodents, and eventually harm humans too (through Bio-fixation).

If you talk about organic farming, it solely depends on animal husbandry, linking it back to non-vegetarianism (rearing and feeding large number of cattles, poultry etc just for the purpose of getting manure is not sustainable, nor profitable for farmers).

[GeneralJazz]

Originally Posted by Touringlawyer

A lot of species have survived for longer periods of time (than humans) on earth without messing with nature, so I am serious when I say we can survive without messing with nature.

Either you didn't understand my point or you have no idea what you are talking about. Yes we have messed with nature, and thats what got us this far. If we lived like 'a lot of species', we'd still be cavemen, gathering and hunting. 'Hunting'.



Anyway you seem only interested in preaching. I guess if it were face to face, you'd be throwing punches by now. Another beautiful thread hijacked. Sigh!

[ksameer1234]

Originally Posted by Samurai

This is a clear case of moral relativism turned into moral superiority, something I explicitly warned against very early in this thread.

Thanks for giving reference to that wonderful post! Being a vegetarian, by birth first and then by choice, I have to agree that deciding what to eat and what not to is absolutely a personal decision. For some though, this decision is made by someone else (parents in my case).

Talking philosophically, life on earth survives on some other life, except for flora which synthesizes life from sunlight. Humans have hunted and killed through the evolutionary phase till agriculture was invented/discovered. I would say that rather than developing guilt for killing life, it would be prudent to look at it from sustainability perspective. Killing in an unsustainable manner is what causes harm and so does unsustainable agriculture.

To sum up, people should eat what they fancy while keeping in mind to not restrict future generations to have access to resources.

[avira_tk]

Originally Posted by Touringlawyer

I am sure you have the same views about women fighting for their rights, sati practised in India, slavery that was practised for centuries, criminalisation of homosexuality etc.

Please do watch the videos and point out what part of the videos seem ethical, fair and just to you.

I'm sure you don't know the difference between people and animals, and you consider animals suffering worse than people starving or getting lynched to "save" cattle. You equating women to cattle says everything about your thought process. Slavery and animal ownership are in the same category according to you? Private ownership keeps those animals around, if they aren't useful, they'll be abandoned / slaughtered, in a country with malnutrition and food shortage only a truly evil person puts animal welfare ahead of their fellow citizens.

I noticed that you didn't respond to the second part of my post. You fit that description. In case you are wondering, domesticated animals don't survive in the wild, the Dutch tried a rewilding experiment that failed spectacularly. Most animals are around because they are economically useful, PETA's slaughter of abandoned pets (some are snatched to profit from their killing) shows that domestic animals survive because their owners take care of them.

I saw a post cursing Macaulay, in English no less, the irony. Communities that don't touch meat are heavily involved in meat and leather, the jealousy with someone else making money results in some weird mental gymnastics here. Vegans aren't victims in any sense, with a fawning media and publicity for their stunts, if you are going to criticize someone, be prepared for a response. No one is obliged to believe that you are virtuous because you have a different diet.

[navin]

This thread is now 19 pages long. I consciously kept myself out of this debate as I have debated this several times in my life.

Given the wide variety of BHPians and the difference in the way we have been raised we are bound to hold on to beliefs that we have been indoctrinated with and will search for videos, facts and figures that fit in with our existing rationale. That is human nature.

There is the argument that being non-vegetarian is "less green", the argument that the meat industry is "cruel", and several other arguments that take a moral/ethical stand on veganism and/or vegetarianism. I have still to get an answer as to why it is not ok to kill animals for food but ok to do so for other uses such as leather goods (shoes, handbags, wallets etc.), latex condoms, etc. Just google the uses of the following: Tallow, Gelatin, Carmine, Rennet, Casein, Lanolin, Keratin etc.

Lets get the facts:
Vegetarians CAN and ARE ABLE to get adequate nutrition from an exclusively vegetarian diet. In fact sometimes, the vegetarian diet is richer in fiber than a meat heavy diet. My own diet includes meat. However, on days that I end up eating a lot of meat, I find my digestion suffers and I balance this by having a lot of leafy, fibrous salads the next day.

Some argue that the Vegetarian diet may lacks some amino acids, Vitamin B6/12, etc. I am non-vegetarian and 55. My vegetarian friends are 55. I don't think any of us suffer from any ailment that is dependent on the deficiency of an amino acid or vitamin. If anything, the common causes for all modern ailments seems to less linked to diet and more linked to stress, exercise, lack of adequate and sound sleep, too much sugar, and an overdose of processed foods.

The common sense would be to have a diet that suits you as an individual. Lets abstain from the ethical or moral arguments of one diet or the other. I don't think anyone here has the RIGHT to preach to anyone else about ethics or morality because, here, there is no absolute RIGHT or WRONG.

Disclaimer: My sister and her husband are vegans and so are several of my relatives. Most claim to have turned vegan for health reasons. Nothing wrong with that. Their bodies told them to and they eat what they are comfortable with.

[Eddy]

Note from Support: This discussion has gone as far as it could and the note above is a logical conclusion. Closing thread.